The Architect dialogue (Didn't wanna put Architect in the subject as that would be a spoiler)
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Architect: Hello Neo

Neo: Who are you?

Architect: I am the Architect. I created the Matrix. I have been waiting for you. You have many questions and although the process has altered your consciousness you remain irrevocably human, ergo some of my answers you will understand and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question maybe the most pertinent you may or may not realize it is also the most irrelevant.

Neo: Why am I here?

Architect: Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent in the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden deciduously avoided it is not unexpected and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you inexcerably here.

Neo: You haven’t answered my question.

Architect: Quite right. Interesting, that was quicker then the others.

Neo: Others? (What others? How many? Answer me)

Architect: The Matrix is older then you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next. In which case this is the sixth version.

Neo: Then there are only two possible explanations, either no one told me, or no one knows.

Architect: Precisely, as you are undoubtedly gathering the anomaly is systemic. Creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

Neo: Choice, the problem is choice.

Architect: The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect; it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it, Based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However I was again frustrated my failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another, and intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo: The Oracle

Architect: Please, as I was saying she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99 percent of all test subjects accepted the program as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at an unconscious level. While this answered function it was obviously fundamentally flawed thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly. That if left unchecked might threaten the system itself, ergo those that refuse the program while the minority if unchecked would cause an escalating probability of disaster.

Neo: This is about Zion

Architect: You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

Neo: Bull

Architect: Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it. And we have become exceedingly efficient at it. The function of the One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry reinserting the prime program after which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix. Which, coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo: You won’t let it happen, you can’t. You need human beings to survive.

Architect: There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However the relevant issue is whether you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world. It is interesting reading your reactions. Your 5 predecessors were by design based on a similar predication a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species facilitating the function of the One. While the others experienced this in a very general way your experience is far more specific, Vis a vie love.

Neo: Trinity

Architect: Apropo, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.

Neo: No

Architect: Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed and the anomaly revealed as both beginning and end. There are two doors, the door to your right leads to the source and the salvation of Zion, the door to your left leads back to the matrix to her and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know we you are going to do don’t we? Already I can see the chain reaction the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple and obvious truth, she is going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness.

Neo: If I were you, I would hope that we don’t meet again.

Architect: We won’t.

Thanks!

Ok so after each Matrix restart as time goes on more and more question / reject The Matrix, and eventually The One is discovered, so they destroy Zion and all the Matrix rejectors in order to protect themselves because they / he might be able to destroy them (or is it that he's the "remainder" and the source will crash if the code he's "carrying" isn't reinserted?), and they keep restarting Zion so that they'll have something to fall back on in case the matrix crashes (I'm less certain on this part).

Or is there more to it?

Ok can someone with a better understanding of S.A.T. words please summarize what that whole dialogue meant?

yeah, im scared to even try and read that

Ok here's what I got from it all:

The matrix is created and retooled every so often because of that 1% that doesn't accept it and end up in zion. Zion is a sort of back up power incase the matrix is fried, this is the reason why Neo's door #1 option is to take 23 people FROM the matrix and restart zion. In a sense, Neo is the beginning and end of the matrix. Now since neo choose door number 2, he has 24 hours till the matrix is wiped out and zion is destroyed, I assume this has been stated that way as a bluff to play on human emotion of not having the world die because of your actions and thus making the past 5 "one's" choose door #1 without any second thoughts.

I must say, that scence was damn_cool.

Zion is not a back-up power source. Zion exits for those who don't accept the Matrix and would create internal problems in it if they stayed. Zion gets destroyed before it becomes a threat to the machines, but they start the whole process over again to keep the matrix running efficiently.

In other words the Matrix is in a perpetual cycle where it restarts everytime a "systemic anomaly" grows in power to the point where it threatens the stability of the whole system. This systemic anomaly manifests itself as the phenomenon named "The One." The Machines developed the Prophecy of the One myth for the humans of Zion, to ensure the One does as he is intended to do to prevent catastophic failure of the Matrix. The One enters The Source and "reboots" the Matrix, reinserts the original code, and then chooses 23 people, 17 female 6 male, to re-found Zion, where those who choose to not accept the programming are banished. Presumably, the Machines have accurately calculated the quantity of systemic anomaly the Matrix can withstand without catastrophic failure, which allows them to predict the emergence of the new "One" and take steps to ensure that the new "One" finds his way to the Source and his conversation with The Architect, to reboot the Matrix again and restart the cycle.

Neo is the 6th iteration of this cycle. He is, however, the first to reject the perpetuation of the cycle, which means something different is going to happen.

Why does the Architect say the door leads "back to the Matrix"? Aren't the Architect and Neo inside the Matrix while having this conversation?

the answer is yes and no ..... think of the matrix as a computer game ..... the atcual every day matrix that they live in and fight in is the playable levels ..... the area where neo and the archietect were is like the scource code or a developers tool for creating levels ...are u still in the computer ...yes....are u still in the matrix game level....no


zion is part of the matrix...... the 'real' world that morpheus and zion are in is part of the matrix ..... the archietect said that the 1% of the population that didnt accept the program needed to be controlled to keep the main program running, hence they are in a programmed reality in which they are fighting the machines. this is why it has been destroyed and rebuilt 5 times previously

at least thats my take ...it also explains how neo used his powers to defeat those squiddies

this is what the dialogue means:

The Matrix is never shut down, destroyed, or rebooted whenever they destroy Zion. It is untouched by this event UNLESS it does not take place, whereas, as another poster has already explained, the 1% of humanity that seems to be of an inquisitive nature would naturally developed into a troublesome evolving threat to the Matrix. The Architect's solution? To follow the lead of the Oracle, a minor program that because of its functions grw to be of paramount importance: to instill the myth of the One, of resistance against the Matrix, of Zion, etc. This is why the Oracle "seems" to see into the future. It does not. It is simply replaying the set of possibilities that it has enacted in the past to recreat the idea of the One, Zion, etc. Think about the Oracle as if it were the Bill Murray character in "Groudhog Day". From our perspective she is almost godlike: from her perspective she is repeating an endless loop (which so far has been repeated only six times). The One is supossed to choose the door that leads to the destruction of Zion, since this action will maintain ALL of humanity alive. If the One picks the door that leads to saving Zion, then all of humanity, those in Zion and those inside the Matrix will inexorably die ("we are prepared to accept a certain way of living..."). The difference in this iteration of the myth built by the Matrix, with the help of the Oracle, is Neo's love for Trinity ("your specific interest..."). The prior Neos did not have a specific love interest, but were rather "programmed" to care for all humanity, and thus they always chose to destroy Zion (but saving 23 humans from Zion, humans that have been proven to be of an inquisitive nature and with more propensity to accept the "myth" of the One, Zion, etc. By saving Trinity, Neo has gone AGAINST his programming, thereby dooming all of Zion, all of the humans in the Matrix, and the Matrix itself.


The one point that goes against this speech by the architect is the Oracle's last encounter with Neo, since she "demistyfies" herself and by proxy Neo himself (thus Neo telling Morpheus that the prophecy is A LIE). This piece of information is obviously against the Oracle's programming, since it made Neo aware of the falsity of the myth which he came to personify. It is possible that the Oracle altered her programming to actually terminate the Zion cycle, but unfortunately this would also mean the utter destruction of the Matrix and therefore her own destruction as well. It will be interesting to see her role in the next film (especially since she died in real life...a shame). I hope this helps somewhat...

BTW, this also means that the "real world" is just another layer of the Matrix. But you already knew that, didn't you? This is why Neo stopped the centinels and this is why Agent Smith was able to download himself outside of the Matrix (he obviously did not; he simply was able to gain access to a layer of the Matrix no agent was programmed to reach. Since his programming was "liberated" by Neo, he can reach Zion). It is a great twist, and perfectly concordant with a Matrix capable of keeping all of humanity under its spell...it just makes sense to create a fake rebellion it can control and monitor...hehehehe

Warning - spoilers!....I agree that Zion is part of a second level matrix. That seems to be the only way to take the architects speech. And thanks to the guy / girl? who posted that - you took a tape recorder into the show? Now that's not illegal is it? Anyway...

And if Zion and the rest of the "real world" are part of a second level matrix it also does explain why Neo was able to stop the sentinals at the end.

So if that is true, then a lot of what we think is right isn't. For example, the whole "humans as batteries" thing is no longer true. That's just part of the non reality of the Zion matrix.

Also, we don't even really know that there is any "real human" substance behind Neo and the rest. If the architect is right (and I don't think we can assume he is), then Neo is just a programming anomally.

So the question is what has Neo really done by choosing the door on his left? And why did the architect let him choose? (Other than because of some arbitrary necessity of "the brothers" (Wachowski) philosophical beliefs).

It seems neo chose to go back into the second level zion matrix, and in 24 hours the whole first matrix and second matrix will come crashing down, killing the whole human race supposedly (but as I said, the whole human as battery thing isn't necessarily true).

But, gee, I wonder if in Revolutions he finds a way to keep the girl and save the world? (If there is a world) That'd be something new in movie making.

????

Note: the 23 humans Neo has to select are not chosen from Zion survivors, they are chosen from people within the matrix.

I was initially confused as to why it was necessary for Neo to select 23 humans to rebuild Zion.
Now it's clear.

- the unpredictability of human choice causes a system anomaly within the matrix. As it grows, the matrix grows more unstable. As the matrix grows more unstable, more people being to 'wake up' to the fact that they are not in a real world. As more and more people wake up and continue to live in the matrix, the matrix program becomes even more unstable. It will eventually crash the system, and kill everyone who's plugged into it.

-This is why Zion's existance is nessecary to the machines. They need to have human beings in the real world, who go around 'unplugging' the people who have 'woken up'. The humans who are unplugging other humans from the matrix think they are doing each other a favor, but in reality they are actually 'pruning' the matrix, cutting off the source of instability, keeping it healthy. The machines need this, they can't find the woken-up humans themselves, as they are unable to detect free will, as they are...well...machines.

- But at the same time, as Zion grows in size, so does the rate at which they wakeup and unplug people. Like Neo said 'in the last six months we've freed more minds than in the last 10 years' or something like that. So once Zion gets to a certain size, the machines come in and wipe it out, because if the number of freed minds gets any bigger, the system will soon crash.

- But the machines still need people on the outside to unplug the ones who wake up. So after Zion is destroyed, they get Neo\the One, to go back into the matrix, wakeup some people, then go back out, unplug them, teach them how to unplug 'freed minds' from the matrix. The reason why these 23 people he chooses are from the matrix and not Zion survivors is because the machines want the re-builders of Zion to think they are the first ones to emerge. If the rebuilders were repeatedly chosen from Zion survivors then eventually they would begin to realize something is up, and wonder why the machines keep 'reseeding' Zion after destroying it. If all the Zion inhabitants are wiped out, the One can tell the new people he frees from the matrix what ever he wants, and there is no one else to tell them otherwise. They'll believe it in blind faith, and the cycle will go on.

Neo is 'the One', an original program that emerged from the first incarnation of the matrix, and has existed in it since. Once the One manifests itself in human form, it gives that person the unique situation of being a program\human hybrid. The only ONE that can exist in both the real, machine world as an organic human, and inside the matrix as a program. He is 'the One' because he is the only one who can exist outside the matrix as a living being, then once his job of re-seeding Zion is complete, he can leave the human body, assimilate back into the Matrix for another couple of hundred years until it's time to do his thing again.

Hey smackfu - I think you are mostly right about what would have happened IF neo had picked the door on his right. But he didn't. He did NOT kick in that whole 23 person rebuild zion thing. He chose the other door, and apparently that is the first time "the one" had chosen the door on his left.

So what happens next? The architect sees (through knowing the chemical process of neo's brain) that he is going to choose the door on his left, and then the architect says:

"As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know we you are going to do don’t we? Already I can see the chain reaction the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple and obvious truth, she is going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness."

So Neo chooses based on emotion / hope, rather than logic. He risks the whole of humanity in order to save Trinity. The architect wants Neo to believe that this choice is going to kill all of humanity, but I don't think the architect can be trusted at that point. I can't see that we have any reliable information about what will happen due to his choice of the door his left. (It would have been so much easier if they had just made it the red door and the blue door!).

Dear Smackfu:


Very interesting take, however you seem to imply that the "real world" exists outside of the Matrix. I contend the "real world" is just another layer of the Matrix, and therefore choosing 23 humans from within this layer makes more sense, since they are predisposed to challenge the status quo, not because they would remember the past incarnations of Zion, but because they are just part of that 1% that has a leaning toward feeling something is wrong with the world around them (exactly what Neo felt before he was "saved" [in fact simply brouhgt into another layer of the Matrix] by Morpheus). Since the 23 humans exist within Zion which is within the Matrix, they do not need to remember anything (just like Cypher wanted to be reinserted into the Matrix without remembering a thing). The would simply wake up in the Matrix with an inserted past history, to then be taken out of that layer by the "new" Neo (in the same manner Morpheus described in the Matrix; one amongst us taught us the new way or something like that). Am I wrong in assuming you think the "real world" is NOT inside the Matrix? please instruct me...

So, are agents put in the programming just to limit the size of Zion? When "free" people come in the first level of the matrix to free more people, the agents are supposed to kill them to limit the number of free people, although a certain number of free people are needed.

What if Neo had been killed in the first movie. Would Zion just keep getting bigger and bigger and never be destroyed because The One would never get to choose the door on the right? Or is it theoretically impossible for Neo, or The One, to die?

Hey Krug, couldn't you just post the dialogue for the whole movie? That would make a lot of this discussion easier!

Peace

One thing I'm still trying to figure out, is why have the agents been trying to kill NEO from the get-go, if the machines need him to reinsert his code? Perhaps the Architect doesn't filter this information to the rest of the collective?

The main reason why the agents try to destroy the One is that it is a method of finding him. In essence they cannot actually destroy the One, as Morpheus' prophecy (which was handed down from the previous 'One') states.

So if the machines come across a 'Zionist' who is doing superhuman things, they know that he or she is potentially 'the One'. So they attack said person. If they kill it, they know it's not the One. If it instead defeats an agent, they then know that they have found the One. Once they know for sure who it is, they manipulate that person onto a path that leads him to the Architect and the Source.

It's all part of the process.

Perhaps if what smakfu says is correct, then the programming code of "The One" doesn't insert itself into a human body until the "chosen one", in this case, Neo, dies. I believe that the purpose of the first version agents were to kill Neo in order for the program to enter his body and thus, revive as "The One".

If you watch the movies carefully, you will see that they ALWAYS have a specific purpose - leading me to belive that their code is continuously being changed to do a specific thing, like killing Neo, Trinity, Morpheus, the Keymaker, etc..... I don't know... maybe the agents are nothing but obstacles.

EDIT: bah... I guess smackfu makes more sense :P

The agents job is to destroy any "virus" that threatens the matrix. Neo represents this virus that threatens the matrix in the first one.

The best way to look at this is:

Zion is the back up battery incase anything happens to the population of the matrix. in order to keep that power controlled they do a format of it every so often using "the one". they destroy it try to make sure that there is still some reserve left. Now why 23 new "free" people? well to not question what happened.

Now what happened to the old "one's"? that's a good question. who really knows. I sure don't know if I have the answer.

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around this, and I pretty much agree with many of the points made above (i.e., that the mythology of The One was created to control the systemic anomaly of the Matrix that "if left unchecked might threaten the system itself", etc.)

However, what I can't figure out is the question swimyouidiot raised above, namely
Explaining all of this to Neo, and offering him a choice, seems to run contrary to the stated function of The One and only serves to exacerbate the very anomaly it is designed to control.

That's what's really baking my noodle.

Ok, I haven't read through all the posts here. If my question had been answered, please inform me so.

Neo to architect: It's either no one told me or no one knows.
Merovingian to Neo: I'd survived your 5 predecessors.

Do you think it's as simple as a scriptor's error or something interesting worth investigation?

Because choice is just an illusion Neo had no real choice on the matter. Maybe all this was pre-determend. Maybe the other 5 "ones" choose door #2 aswell for other reasons beyond love. maybe the bluff the architect gave neo wasn't enough to distract him where the architect hoped the knowledge that the world would die if he choose #2 didn't have the effect that the architect wanted. either way, it's shown that choice is just something to fool you into thinking you are doing things on your own free will.

Maybe this time, neo did make a choice on his own. We just have to wait another 6 months.