FiveO

I did...but I also think its Keymaster...not maker in GB.

Just a technicality

DVDGUY1116

First off I really enjoyed the movie a lot. I feel as though it is not deserving of the slamming that some people are giving it but to each there own. When did Smith enter Zion? I am assuming that you are talking about the guy that was on the table next to Neo at the end but how do you know that? It didn't look like Smith to me, although I had to piss really bad so I might not have been paying total attention at that second, but the guy that tried to kill Neo earlier while they were in Zion. So was it implied that the guy was Smith or was it really Smith with a goatee?

trigun

Remember Neo's dream where Smith cloned himself into a freedom fighter, and then left the Matrix through the phone? Smith wanted to shank Neo but was interrupted by Kid. He was also responsible for sabotaging the defense of Zion by EMP'ing the defense ships, and was the soul survivor of the event.

trigun

Back to the monitors: I too assumed that they showed different choices that Neo could make, each leading to an infinite number of future possibilities (as each picture of Neo featured a wall of monitors as well). I was trying to concentrate on the conversation, but didn't the camera zoom into one of the monitors at least once, and then continue the conversation almost seamlessly? It was kind of subtle, but I'm almost certain that happened...

Also, remember the scene in M1 when Neo is being interrogated by the agents? Doesn't the scene start by moving into a screen very similar to the ones in the Source?

gcribbs

I think the real world is another Matrix within the Matrix.

I do not think we have seen the real world yet

The clues to me are Neo's power in the real world. Plus Agent Smith being able to take over a person in the Matrix and then keep control of the "real" person in the real world.

jarofclay73

The way I see it, Morpheus is now facing the same paradigm shift that Neo experienced in the first film. Neo had to come to grips that the reality he knew is the Matrix and not the true reality. Morpheus is also now coming to see that his faith in the prophecy and oracle could now be smoke and mirrors as well. I fully support the Matrix-within-a-Matrix theory. Like my friend says, it's the franchise trying to redefine itself. The only drawback is that it makes the first movie almost obsolete. And, perhaps, we could be in store for yet ANOTHER revelation about Zion and the Matrix in Revolutions.

Overall, I liked the film. Still, the endless talk about choice vs. destiny and the long dialogue with the Oracle and the Architect probably leaves non-fans totally confused. While I also liked the multiple-Smiths and the car chase action sequences, I thought a lot of the other fighting was extraneous and even gratuitious. The most important aspects of the film were the Oracle and the Architect and it would be better if we got to those sooner. Also, I thought there was some gratuitous slo-mo and bullet time scenes. While I thought some of them served its purpose (e.g. Morpheus and his sword/gunplay, bullet-time use of Neo saving Trinity and the Keymaker) others seem to be just visual eye candy. Pacing doesn't seem to be the Wachowski Brother's strong points. And it probably goes without saying that the Zion rave scene/love scene could have been shorter or just deleted.

It's definitely more epic than the first film but doesn't have the innocence of the first film. But I definitely like where it's going. The first film had a "pseudo-philosophy" while I think now it's being reconstructed in a much more concrete, albeit convoluted, explanation.

TCG

I'm not sure I buy the Matrix-in-a-MAtrix theory. It's possible, but i dont think the Wachowskis would make M1 obsolete.

After my second viewing some more thoughts and questions:

- Smith is becoming more human, while Neo is becoming more machine. This would explain Smith entering the real world in another's mind. And Neo stopping the sentinels.
They can feel each other. They are close to becoming one and the same.

- Vampires and Ghosts are simply programs, some of which were created by the Merovingian. Persephone says something about how ghosts, vampires, and aliens are just other, strange programs.
Remember, Persephone says, "why would anyone carry silver bullets?" (necessary to kill Vampires), and then plugs one guy, right as the vampire on the TV reveals its teeth.
Also, the twins become very ghost-like when 'morfing'.
People in the Matrix would believe these were, respectively, vampires, and ghosts.
Nothing big, but very cool when i got it.

- after Neo says, "you didnt answer my question," the Architect replies, "hmmm, quicker than the others."

- and yes, there are two shots where we pass thru a tv screen back into the same room. implying that this screen is the choice Neo made, whereas the others are Possible choices.

- Q: what exactly are the differences between the two doors? And why is there an explosion after Neo leaves the Source?

As Joey Pants said, "what a mind-job!"

chrisfelice

I too think this plays HEAVILY on this movie... Neo is portrayed as a "Jesus" type character. He does not understand what his purpose is. He is told that he is "the one" but does not know why. People believe him to have the powers to heal and cure the sick. People are showering him with gifts. His actions could be seen as miracles. He is supposed to lead "his people" to salvation.

As for Smith... he is like the fallen arch-angel... he was once working for the "good", the computers... he was outcast and is now rebelling, trying to re-write the way things should be... It almost seems as if he is purposly trying to bring down the computers so that he can bring himself (and his copies) into power... Could he be... Satan?

As for the "cleansing of Zion"... that reminds me of Noah's Ark... save the chosen few, and "erase" all that is left to start new...

------------------------------------
Back to the theories....
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I came up with the same Matrix-within-a-Matrix theory as I discussed the movie with friends... I think that the Matrix has "created" this "real-world" environment for the people to "think" they are beating the system... but in reality, the computer still has control... This would explain why Neo could "feel" the Sentinal's and stop them...

I also have a theory as to why Neo passed out after stopping the Sentinals... to make things clearer, we will call the "original Matrix" MatrixA, and the hypothetical new "reality Matrix" MatrixB.... going on the information that Neo is a program, or even that Neo is just a person who is able to manipulate the program... when he is in the MatrixA, he is "aware" of this Matrix, from what he has been told and shown... his mind has been "freed" and he has accepted this... he had managed to manipulate things and has obviously gotten very good at it But.... in the MatrixB, his mind is convinced that it is real... he does not think that he should be able to "do" anything within that matrix ('cuz to him, it isn't a Matrix at all)... so when he sensed the Sentinals, his mind reacted as if it was in MatrixA, manipulating the situation and stopping them. Afterwards, his body went into a state of shock... it acted overwhelmed... but, it proved that he has powers in the "real world" as well as in the MatrixA... which leads me to believe that the "real world" ain't so real after all...

What a mindf--k.... God I love this movie!!!!

Jackskeleton

this is the same building that the three went to lunch with Merovingian. Remember how Neo said the "script" for the building was different then he had ever seen and how each floor was connected to explosives.

Flash forward to when they are coming up with the plan... the reason they had to shut down power and back up power to the building is because if they went into that level with the security on, the building will explode. When Neo opens the door he steps back into the building strapped with explosives.

Trinity shut down the back up power but still, there was only a five minute time frame they could have gotten.

The real question... What happened to the key makers body when he was leaving?

rennervision

This relates to something I asked in another thread, so sorry for the repeat, but perhaps this is a better place to discuss...

I've seen the movie once, and there was so much information thrown at me in the last 20 minutes, I think my brain might have shut down. Can anyone elaborate if Zion was destroyed? I'm thinking it wasn't (at least not yet) because I remember something about Neo saying they had 24 hours. But Agent Smith in human disguise set off an EMP "too early" destroying five ships. Weren't those ships stationed in Zion protecting it?

I'm confused.

PixyJunket

I have a question about the ending, going along the lines of the sabotage, etc.. did they say that all of Zion was slaughtered? Or was it just the few ships they had as a defensive line?

BigPete

Just the defensive line.

MrPeanut

so any guesses as to what the "real" world is? I have these awful feelings that the we're going to get a cop out maybe-it-was-all-just-a-dream ending. I mean, is there any reason to think that the whole apocalypse/machines taking over story still holds in the real world? If it's just another level of matrix, it could be just as innacuate as the original matrix we were introduced to and the real world could just as well be the real world we know and the matrix with zion is nothing more than a computer program made by a bored hacker who wanted a sci fi version of the sims.

PixyJunket

Ah.. so the whoel 24 hours things is what they have to save the rest of Zio.. ok. I left the theater thinking "Well if everyone is dead, what the hell are they going to bother fighting for?"

CKMorpheus

my take on it is as follows...

-The 'Matrix-within-a-matrix' theory seems possible, but that would be a complete cop-out, and would make the past 2 films total BS, and a complete waste of time.

-I belive that Zion wasn't destroyed. My mind was a little jumbled after the whole story the Architect gave us, but from what I understood, Zion sent a few ships to try and launch a sneak EMP attack on the Sentinals. One of the ships had Smith on it, and he launched the EMP too early, alerting the sentinals, and that's when the sentinals attacked the ships. Leaving all but Smith dead.

-I'm partial to a theory I read in another thread. About how in the bible, 6 = man or the devil. And 7 = god, or heaven. I belive that Neo isn't the one, or perhaps he must die again, or once and for all, to save Zion. I do remember reading the Wachowskis saying Reloaded was about LIFE, and Revolutions was about DEATH. Perhaps Neo will need to sacrifice himself for Zion. Hmm?

outcastja

Since Neo is similar to Jesus, I wouldn't be surprise if Neo sacrificed himself to save the rest of humanity.

C-Mart

I always wondered from the first movie what would happen to Neo. I mean sure, in The Matrix he has badass powers, but get him into 'reality' and he is just another person. Probably a pretty weak one at that. Now we know that he has some superhuman powers outside of The Matrix which created the question of reality being another Matrix as has been previously stated in this thread.

One thing that I noticed that also backs up the Matrix-within-a-Matrix theory is when Neo was in The Source. The monitors were showing various things, and at some points were showing scenes from the first Matrix movie. But some of them were showing scenes from 'Reality' i.e. Neo had a shaved head or was wearing ratty clothes. How did the Architect get these images to display on the screens?

Was the Architect taking these images from Neo's mind? This would denounce the Matrix-within-a-Matrix theory, as yes, all of those images could have easily been within Neo's mind. However if The Architect had the power to get that deep into Neo's mind, then surely he could control it as well, making Neo go through whichever door he wanted. This scenario does nothing to describe Neo's power outside of the Matrix. Perhaps he is not only an anomoly within the Matrix, which was fully predicted and even planned for by the Architect and the Oracle, but his human body is an anomoly (Mutant? Anyone see Neo joining the X-Men somewhere in the future?) as well, not predicted by the Architect, and that is the very reason that he will end up freeing the human race.

If The Architect could NOT read Neo's mind, that meant that he had the imagery from the Matrix itself, meaning that Neo has NEVER left the Matrix, fully supporting the Matrix-within-a-Matrix theory.

Another explanation is that The Source was taking the images from Neo's mind, and had nothing to do with the Architect. However, there were some times when the images on the screen were those of people, as when the Architect was talking about Neo having to choose between saving the human race and saving Trinity. This seems to strengthen the idea that the Architect was controlling the screens the whole time.

-CM-

Breakfast with Girls

For all the matrix within a matrix people, why did Neo say, "Something's different"?

Patman

Okay, slept on it, and thankfully, some kind folks have filled in some of the gaps for me (and my sieve-like memory these days).

I think if people treat the Matrix like a video game, characters like the Keymaker make sense in that they are simply subroutines that get run when someone puts them in play. That's his code-defined purpose, to unlock things, just like in a game.

For my sanity, I am going with Zion is real, not another room inside the even larger-than-hinted size of the Matrix. Just on a dramatic level, if the key characters are shown to be just bits of code, without a true spark of humanity, then I, the human viewer, is just going to feel really bad if that's how it plays out. Our level of sympathy for Neo (and the resistance fighters/Zion) would be diminished and basically deleted, and then we'd be faced with the questions, "what was the point?" So, for me, Zion needs to be filled with real humans who have escaped from the Machines people farms to work for me, a human.

Also, I think it's easier to think of the "characters" like Merovingian and Persephone as AI code built in by the original human programmers which built up the machines, and their "personality imprint" on how machines go about creating more complex code to run the machine world, including the Matrix (which is basically a big baby-sitting playground for the humans being harvested for energy). These AI "characters" have seen the previous incarnations of how the machines use the Matrix and the perennial offshoot for malcontents (freedom fighters, bucking the system, etc) that will always statistically exist from a large group of humans jacked into the Matrix.

Human nature, being what it is, will always compell a small percentage of the human to go rogue while jacked into the Matrix experience, and as history has shown the father of the Matrix, it is better to give these humans a real release valve, and that is Zion, and the perception of hope that they can overcome the machines' control over their lives.

Choice, it seems, is all about who's got the power within any encounter/transaction.

Each time the humans are at the brink of pulling the plug on the Matrix, thanks to the anomaly in the Matrix code that produces a Neo each and everytime, the Machines have 2 choices to offer to Neo: #1 The start over choice, to convince Neo to choose the Matrix Reloaded option (and giving him the choice to pick who would be re-populating Zion); or the #2 choice, giving Neo the option to try and save Trinity/humanity (something probably new in this go-around) that would cause the Machines to have to nuke all of the humans jacked into the Matrix and in Zion, and go into low power existence mode.

Now, even though choice #1 always offers Neo to be the hero of humanity, it takes away Neo's present, the life he is living now, and obviously, by this incarnation of Neo #6, Neo can't stand the thought of living in a world without Trinity. I suppose the Architect found it interesting that this incarnation of Neo has finally, truly, tapped into his human nature, and chosen to embrace that most irrational of human qualities in the face of utter destruction of their own existence: Hope.

From the machines standpoint, Neo is like a bug inside the code that can't be eradicated easily. (Perhaps Microsoft had a hand in creating the code for the Machines). So the machines live with the Neo bug with each successive reboot of the Matrix. But each time, the bug seems to mutate, Neo gets to the point quicker and quicker, it's like there's a bit more "memory" which forms Neo each and every time imparts just a bit more processing capacity to take in the data at hand and comes up with queries that are more efficient within its decision-making process, based on the input it receives in each Matrix reboot.

Now throw in Agent Smith, and how the maker of the Matrix has failed to consider what would happen if an agent went rogue, this is where the 6th interation of the Matrix has produced the first conditions where AI->Man (Smith), and Man->AI (Neo). This is the key that could probably give humans the edge over machine, but Neo will probably have to face off with Smith (representing machine, but with his own agenda, and his viral-like spread/infection of the Matrix aids in his quest to conquer the Matrix, and expand into other areas under Machine control) to settle the issue in the next film.

chanster

Trigun-

Smith did not enter the "real world" in a dream by Neo. That was happening at the same time.

chanster

And secondly, those guys may have been werewolves, they weren't vampires. Silver Bullets kill Werewolves.

RolloTomasi

About the silver bullet thing:

Yes, I was confused about the vampire/werewolf thing too. Originally, I thought they were werewolves because they looked sort of feral.

But then I got thinking: there would be a reason they would show a vampire on screen at the same time. And everyone else I talked to thought they were vampires first. And then I rememebered that movies, especially comic-book style movies, often change vampire lore. Didn't Blade use silver bullets to kill vampires?

So now I don't know.

Tarantino

The first movie had Neo die and come back to life as 'The One'.

Maybe, with Trinity dying and coming back, she's the next 'One'?

I mean, he did save HER, as opposed to saving Zion, and there had to have been a reason...maybe a reason stronger than love.

Patman

Neo saving Trinity inside the Matrix just shows how much "god-like" skills that he possesses inside the Matrix now.

jarofclay73

Watching the first movie over again...

When Neo answered the door and some copy of something for a guy, he tells Neo that he's like Jesus and saved his life.

When Neo scared Cypher, Cypher says, "You scared the bejesus out of me!"

Also, people noticed Highway 101 in Reloaded...well Neo's apt number in the first movie was 101 also.