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What is the difference between a goblin and an Orc?

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What is the difference between a goblin and an Orc?

Old 12-26-02, 11:54 AM
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What is the difference between a goblin and an Orc?

Am I the only one who is a little confused by the different references to Orcs and Goblins? Now I read the books a long time ago and I thought I remembered that they were different. Yet in the movie the “Orcs” of Moria look just like the “Goblins” of Mordor.

If someone else asked this question, I apologize, I did a search and could not find it.
Old 12-26-02, 01:26 PM
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Two words for the same creature. The words are interchangable, although goblin is used mostly in The Hobbit and orc is used mostly in LOTR.
Old 12-26-02, 01:54 PM
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Originally posted by Rand
Two words for the same creature. The words are interchangable, although goblin is used mostly in The Hobbit and orc is used mostly in LOTR.
I had a problem with this also. They seem to be the same thing except that the Uri-Kai (sp?) were created from the union of goblins and orcs if I remember right. Doesn't make them the same if the above is true.

Here is one place where this is discussed.
http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/u...=1&t=000282&p=

and here is better discussion.
http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/u...=1&t=000389&p=

Last edited by Ketamine; 12-26-02 at 02:03 PM.
Old 12-26-02, 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by Ketamine
I had a problem with this also. They seem to be the same thing except that the Uri-Kai (sp?) were created from the union of goblins and orcs if I remember right. Doesn't make them the same if the above is true.
that is the EXACT reason i ask this. I assumed they were the same until that statement.
Old 12-26-02, 02:45 PM
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I'm not sure where you are getting the "union of goblins of orcs" from. It wasn't mentioned in either movie, and it's certainly not a part of the books. The Uruk-Hai are basically just uber-orcs...genetically engineered, if you will.
Old 12-26-02, 03:05 PM
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Originally posted by Groucho
I'm not sure where you are getting the "union of goblins of orcs" from. It wasn't mentioned in either movie, and it's certainly not a part of the books. The Uruk-Hai are basically just uber-orcs...genetically engineered, if you will.
“His treachery runs deeper than you know. By foul craft Saruman has crossed Orcs with Goblin-men. He’s breeding an army in the caverns of Isengard. An army that can move in sunlight and cover great distance at speed.”

-Gandalf to Elrond in the Scene before the council meeting.
Old 12-26-02, 03:24 PM
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The quote stated above is correct, and is clear in the movie. Form other statements made in the movie (mostly by the Elves in Lothlorien and Gandalf I believe) it is said that the Orcs are night creatures and cannot travel during the day, however the Goblins can. By breeding them together Saruman created a race that has the strength of the orcs, and the ability to travel during the day of the Goblins. The Elves of Lothlorien were very concerned about this, since it made the Ura-Kai more dangerous and unpredictable, as well as being able to travel much further than their more normal cousins.

I can't remember if this distinction was made in the books or not, it has been a while, but in the movie it was fairly clear. I did however watch the Extended version most recently, so maybe it was clearer there.
Old 12-26-02, 03:31 PM
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Originally posted by DeputyDave
“His treachery runs deeper than you know. By foul craft Saruman has crossed Orcs with Goblin-men. He’s breeding an army in the caverns of Isengard. An army that can move in sunlight and cover great distance at speed.”

-Gandalf to Elrond in the Scene before the council meeting.
The above qoute was directly from the movie.
Old 12-26-02, 04:08 PM
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Originally posted by DeputyDave
The above qoute was directly from the movie.
The gobolin-men that Gandalf refers to may be the half-orcs that Tolkien describes who were as tall as men yet retained some orc features. They were smart as men and could travel in daylight without fear. They often acted as spies. If they are bred along with orcs/goblins, then the strain of Uruks may have come about. This is speculation on the screenwriter's part since Tolkien doesn't really describe where the Uruks come from other than they were bred by Sauron (not Saruman).
Old 12-27-02, 06:20 AM
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Am I imagining this, or didn't Sauramon mention in Fellowship that Orcs were basically mutated elves?
Old 12-27-02, 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by jwerner
Am I imagining this, or didn't Sauramon mention in Fellowship that Orcs were basically mutated elves?
Yes, orcs originally were elves that Sauron twisted and ruined into the creatures they became. Something that would pass for humor with Sauron.

The film doesn't explain the origin of the Uruk-Hai very well. Harlock415's explanation is correct according to the text. The reason why the Uruk-Hai can move by day and are larger than the regular orcs is that they are a cross between orcs and "goblin men". The film switches Sauron and Saruman's roles, as it did on other occaisions.
Old 12-27-02, 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by Rand
Yes, orcs originally were elves that Sauron twisted and ruined into the creatures they became. Something that would pass for humor with Sauron.
Close. It was "The First Dark Lord" Morgoth that did that. Sauron was only his Lieutenant. Morgoth was defeated at the end of the first age and Sauron was defeated at the end of the Second and Third ages.
Old 12-28-02, 04:51 AM
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I thought in the books that the Uruk-Hai were the union of Men and Orcs thus they were bigger and like men could travel in the light.

Of course i would need to research it to be totally sure.

There was some mention of men in the first book who were part orc or goblin. these looked more human so they could sort of pass as ugly humans. They retained the orc/goblin evil traits however. One of the Southerners who was in Bree was of this cross in the book. He was not in the movie.

Goblins were related to Orcs but smaller. Both did not like light. This is why they Uruk-Hai were so fearsome. In the books the Uruk-Hai had regular Orcs from Mordor with them when they captured Merry and Pippin and they did not want to travel by day. The Uruk-Hai forced them to. So the orcs could deal with the sun they just were uncomfortable in it and did not travel in the light except when forced to do so.
Old 12-28-02, 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by DeputyDave
By foul craft Saruman has crossed Orcs with Goblin-men.
You misheard the quote. He actually says "By foul craft Saruman has crossed Orcs with Gobblin' Men."

Old 12-28-02, 12:56 PM
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Originally posted by Groucho
You misheard the quote. He actually says "By foul craft Saruman has crossed Orcs with Gobblin' Men."

Cool I wonder if they are good with stuffing
Old 12-30-02, 08:07 AM
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I thought the Uruk-Hai worked for Saruman in the books as well. I also remember in the books that the conflict between the orc races was not only over Merry and Pippin but whether the orcs were loyal to either Saruman or Sauron.
Did Sauron lend Saruman his orcs or something like that?
Old 01-02-03, 11:07 AM
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Orcs = Corrupted Elves
Goblines = Corrupted Dwarves
Old 01-02-03, 01:19 PM
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nah...Dwarves don't get corrupted.
It is told that in their beginning the Dwarves were made by Aulë in the darkness of Middle-earth; for so greatly did Aulë desire the coming of the Children, to have learners to whom he could teach his lore and his crafts, that he was unwilling to await the fulfilment of the designs of Ilúvatar. And Aulë made the Dwarves even as they still are, because the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear to his mind, and because the power of Melkor was yet over the Earth; and he wished therefore that they should be strong and unyielding. But fearing that the other Valar might blame his work, he wrought in secret: and he made first the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves in a hall under the mountains in Middle-earth.
Old 01-03-03, 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by Dr. DVD
I thought the Uruk-Hai worked for Saruman in the books as well. I also remember in the books that the conflict between the orc races was not only over Merry and Pippin but whether the orcs were loyal to either Saruman or Sauron.
Did Sauron lend Saruman his orcs or something like that?
Yes, the group that captured Merry and Pippin were from both Sauron and Saruman, the former bearing the red eye insignia and the latter the white hand. While Saruman was supposed to be subservient to Sauron, the orcs suspected he might have other things in mind.
Old 01-12-03, 06:36 PM
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i thought the uruk-hai were crossed men and orcs...
Old 01-12-03, 09:16 PM
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Originally posted by Thunderball
Orcs = Corrupted Elves
Not quite true. In Letters of JRR Tolkien, there's a letter that post-dates Silm in which Tolkien changes his mind about that. I still believe the reference should have been taken out of the revised edition of Silm.
Old 01-12-03, 11:30 PM
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Tolkien started to have second thoughts on his entire cosmology and had he lived another 10-20 years might very well have re-written everything. He was concerned about everything from Earendil being "Venus" and the Sun and Moon being fruits from a couple trees. He thought it was silly that the elves were as smart as they were and yet had to make up some psuedo=religious parable about the sun and moon. Remember, this is OUR world, just a bit earlier. He also seemed to panic about orcs being decended from elves. Were they "immortal"? Did their souls go to Mandos? Only God could give souls so why would He allow them to suffer as orcs? He started to change his mind and decided orcs were probably of mannish origin. Considering they appeared years before Men awakened, then he has to go into all kinds of loopholes. Like, the original orcs were souless automatons each containing a nugget of consciousness from Melkor himself (further dispersing his native power) and then after men came, he turned some of them into orcs or something. Even Tolkien never really answered this question definitively. He died before he considered anything of his histories publishable. So the Silmarillion is a representation of his World at certain points of time as it was compiled from writings over a near 60 year period and were just the most complete versions, if not quite definitive. So the question arises: if towards the end of his life he considered scrapping the entire lot and starting fresh, do we take his musings concerning the "new cosmology" and discount everything he had written up to that point, or do we take the cosmology "as is" and consider it as close to "canon" as is possible? He wrote the vast majority of his history under first the assumption that orcs were just mockeries of elves, then changed that to corrupted elves. The idea that orcs were "mannish" or automatons came after everything was written and concerned his proposed re-conception of the worlds of Middle Earth.

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