Potter longevity versus LOTR
12-28-02 | 02:11 PM
#26
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Thank you all... It really feels good to see people come out of their burrows together like that, albeit under the wrong banner.
I've been called many names before, but never been accused of reeking "a lot of Tolken Loving". That's a good one.
However, I believe that, my own personal ideas and odious Anti-American mentality (? - I must've hit a common sore spot...) notwithstanding, Potter will not outlast Frodo. I have already pointed out some reasons, others can follow. In any case, that IS still the subject of the thread.
As for Zevaco and Sue not being big... sure, not in the U.S.... As I've said, I'm older than most of you, probably, and I happened to live, travel and work in many places of the world (far fewer than I'd like, though), so I think I have a pretty good idea of some local cultures as opposed to global cultures. I brought Spiderman into discussion - some of the people I've met in my life had never heard of him, but they've surely read Zevaco. Kids might grow up reading Marvel comics (and probably too little of something else) in Mobile, Alabama and Portland, Oregon, but that doesn't mean that Hulk and the X-Men are popular (or even known at all) overseas. Sure, China can churn out mass-produced stuff (as it does anyway, have you looked at your action figures' labels lately?) but that does not mean "that's it, Potter will replace Sun Tzu" and we'll all watch Sesame Street from now on.
Happy? Or am I still forcing you to think outside your comfy boxes? That's just it, isn't it, now that you've figured out what I'm doing here, you can just go back to your righteousness, happy that you've nailed me as another "crazy Canuck/impertinent Eurocrat/treacherous Anti-American etc." and I'll go back to reading "Mein Kampf" now, in its original and autographed version, and leave you to your anger management sessions. Save your breath, watch the "Chamber of Secrets" again.
Have a good week-end, y'all.
I've been called many names before, but never been accused of reeking "a lot of Tolken Loving". That's a good one.
However, I believe that, my own personal ideas and odious Anti-American mentality (? - I must've hit a common sore spot...) notwithstanding, Potter will not outlast Frodo. I have already pointed out some reasons, others can follow. In any case, that IS still the subject of the thread.
As for Zevaco and Sue not being big... sure, not in the U.S.... As I've said, I'm older than most of you, probably, and I happened to live, travel and work in many places of the world (far fewer than I'd like, though), so I think I have a pretty good idea of some local cultures as opposed to global cultures. I brought Spiderman into discussion - some of the people I've met in my life had never heard of him, but they've surely read Zevaco. Kids might grow up reading Marvel comics (and probably too little of something else) in Mobile, Alabama and Portland, Oregon, but that doesn't mean that Hulk and the X-Men are popular (or even known at all) overseas. Sure, China can churn out mass-produced stuff (as it does anyway, have you looked at your action figures' labels lately?) but that does not mean "that's it, Potter will replace Sun Tzu" and we'll all watch Sesame Street from now on.
Happy? Or am I still forcing you to think outside your comfy boxes? That's just it, isn't it, now that you've figured out what I'm doing here, you can just go back to your righteousness, happy that you've nailed me as another "crazy Canuck/impertinent Eurocrat/treacherous Anti-American etc." and I'll go back to reading "Mein Kampf" now, in its original and autographed version, and leave you to your anger management sessions. Save your breath, watch the "Chamber of Secrets" again.
Have a good week-end, y'all.
12-28-02 | 02:43 PM
#27
DVD Talk Legend
Again, it’s not your opinions but your attitude that is wrong. You are an insulting elitist snob. I'm thinking of changing my opinion on Potter simply to disassociate myself from you.
Ooooh, you’ve traveled abroad? Well I think you took your "cocoon" with you. I've traveled to 23 different countries (including your own) and lived abroad for 9 years of my adult life (and not in some blurry carbon copy of the US, either) so what? The only thing I've learned from your posts is how insecure Canadians are.
Ooooh, you’ve traveled abroad? Well I think you took your "cocoon" with you. I've traveled to 23 different countries (including your own) and lived abroad for 9 years of my adult life (and not in some blurry carbon copy of the US, either) so what? The only thing I've learned from your posts is how insecure Canadians are.
12-28-02 | 03:44 PM
#28
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From: City of the lakers.. riots.. and drug dealing cops.. los(t) Angel(e)s. ca.
Originally posted by Playitagainsam
Thank you all... It really feels good to see people come out of their burrows together like that, albeit under the wrong banner.
Thank you all... It really feels good to see people come out of their burrows together like that, albeit under the wrong banner.
Should we toss all the Harry potter books into a big fire pit, claim devotion to LOTR? will that be going forward with the right banner? Should we say American's are swine and call all american mother's Hamsters and that the fathers smelt of elderberries? Will that make the English pig-dogs come out of our burrows together in the Right banner?
You stated:
"Strange, I thought I can carry out a conversation slightly above high school level."
but from what you are saying you sound like a one sided pumpus fool rambling on about how things were better "back in the day". Your conversation skills seem to have actually lowered to the level of 3rd graders claiming the classic lines "I'm better then you, join me or I'll call you names" (Though since thats the spirit, I'm gonna have fun with this post)
I've been called many names before, but never been accused of reeking "a lot of Tolken Loving". That's a good one.
However, I believe that, my own personal ideas and odious Anti-American mentality (? - I must've hit a common sore spot...) notwithstanding, Potter will not outlast Frodo. I have already pointed out some reasons, others can follow. In any case, that IS still the subject of the thread.
Your views on the side issues cloud your mind from ever being able to carrie out a GOOD, even sided discussion on the matter at hand. If Harry potter has any legs (To use an Movie term). The thread starter stated in the third post that:
"Actually, I may have started off on the wrong foot with the title. I am really not interested in a versus, or in even comparing the quality of the books"
So if you want to talk about the REAL topic of this thread.. If this book will last the test of time. Fine, we will, but your post so far only show that you think Tolken is god and any talk about Harry Potter is just rubbish. To be honest, will LOTR outlast Harry Potter? Nope. do you know why? Because LOTR already has a lot of years on Harry Potter. In order for Harry Potter to Out Last LOTR that would mean that LOTR will have to somehow disappear. And just like any great piece of work in a book, it will last for as long as we can read. But thats not to say HARRY POTTER will go away anytime soon or to say the least, will vanish before LOTR. They will both enjoy long life spans if you ask me.
They are books, they will last the test of time aslong as the print can be seen and read. Both will also fade into the background of the media and you will not hear about it on the news. Though Canadian based web sites praising Harry Potter will always be around.
Also, You wanted to discuss this in conversation, yet I have addressed every point in your last post aswell as in this one. To think, Keyser soze will be turning in his grave (He's dead?) if he saw me defending Harry Potter in such a way after the stern beating I gave him after he stated that Harry Potter was better then Star Wars
. Anyhow, all you had to say so far in a counter arguement is this post which is really disappointing, I thought you would for sure bust out some crazy radical thoughts which would have been very entertaining for me to read, But you resort to this. such a shame. Oh well. shouldn't have expected much other then "American's are pigs living in a filth pit of lies and unfair Canadian jokes.... and there money smells!" Back to the post..As for Zevaco and Sue not being big... sure, not in the U.S.... As I've said, I'm older than most of you, probably, and I happened to live......blah blah blah, I'm better then you...blah blah blah...global cultures. I brought Spiderman into discussion - some of the people I've met in my life had never heard of him, ..blah blah blah... I eat canadian bacon and drink beer Eh... blah blah blah snow.. eh. dontcha know you folks in...Mobile, Alabama and Portland, Oregon, but that doesn't mean that Hulk and the X-Men are popular (or even known at all) overseas. Sure, China can churn out mass-produced stuff (as it does anyway, have you looked at your action figures' labels lately?) but that does not mean "that's it, Potter will replace Sun Tzu" and we'll all watch Sesame Street from now on.
China does pump out a lot of items both bootleg and legit, yes, thank you for telling us the obvious...
the point of my reference is that if it sold as many copies as the little red book, and has even become something that they wrote a bootleg book about (yes, I'm aware that china churns out a lot of bootleg item) that at the very least it is popular and has some meritt to state it. You know, not everyone has read all those comics, but one thing is true. The names are known farther then what you think. I'm sure the dank bars you went into after you answered their questions three were full of folks who just loved Tolken and claimed him as god aswell.. did you by any chance happen to have your 6 side die with you? or were you carrying your 18 side aswell during those many trips to different places of the world? How was Rhudaur? What has the witch king of Angmar have to say of the actions taken by the lord of America BUSH?
(Coming from one person who played a lot of D&D it has to be funny and taken as a joke)Happy? Or am I still forcing you to think outside your comfy boxes? That's just it, isn't it, now that you've figured out what I'm doing here, you can just go back to your righteousness,
Actually, I think YOU are the one afraid that we are making you think out of your comfy box which you hide in everyday condeming "English-speaking" countries when you are in one as you speak. Sounds pretty lame if you ask me. That would be like me bashing on Computers and all the evils they bring as I sit here and type on one. Trying to take down "the man" from the inside are you? I'm not trying to sound righteous. You are just sounding to much like a blind man when you speak the way you do about how Potter is another thing "English-speaking" capotialistic pigs read in "the twisted warped box"
happy that you've nailed me as another "crazy Canuck/impertinent Eurocrat/treacherous Anti-American etc." and I'll go back to reading "Mein Kampf" now, in its original and autographed version, and leave you to your anger management sessions. Save your breath, watch the "Chamber of Secrets" again.Have a good week-end, y'all.
EH?
I say take the thread creators advice and:
"so, please, Jack is right, lets not turn this into a LOTR is better than potter or vice versa, I get quickly bored by those myself"
See, even he thinks I'm right.
I'm sure he's bored by now.So, uh, dontcha' know. Maybe yous should uh kick back eh, and enjoy a cold one. Yea. then maybe you could enjoy da books a littl' more. Dontcha know
Eh. G'day
If you click on a certain picture in the post you will be taken to a site so you can switch and get on the "Right Banner"
Last edited by Jackskeleton; 12-28-02 at 04:01 PM.
12-28-02 | 05:43 PM
#29
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by Jackskeleton
To think, Keyser soze will be turning in his grave (He's dead?) if he saw me defending Harry Potter in such a way after the stern beating I gave him after he stated that Harry Potter was better then Star Wars.
To think, Keyser soze will be turning in his grave (He's dead?) if he saw me defending Harry Potter in such a way after the stern beating I gave him after he stated that Harry Potter was better then Star Wars.
-k
###
12-28-02 | 06:02 PM
#30
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Ha, ha (again)
Originally posted by Playitagainsam
So, instead of carrying out a conversation, and crush me with some intelligent and well-documented replies, you are attacking the person, and say I'm too elitist.
Strange, I thought I can carry out a conversation slightly above high school level. That's called "elitism"? Bringing into discussion ideas that seem to elude you? Rather, this appears to have the same effect as a piece of red rag waved before a bull...
So we have Kal Jedi here, who says what I wrote is ********, but offers no counter-arguments. Well, considering that he wants to raise his (?) children on Pot(ter), and that reading the "Lord of the Rings" once in a lifetime was enough of an experience, I believe that I'm in good company.
Then along come SilentBob007, who brings into discussion exactly the same notions that I warned against. This is actually funny, because it's one of the common fallacies of the American way of thinking - a fascination for (as high as possible) numbers. You're a product of your environment, which relies too heavily on quantification and almost forsakes qualitative notions (with fascinating results, when you compare the two approaches). Dude, the books were translated into 26 different languages, but maybe you also should check out the final sales? I'm not going to go into explaining how publishing houses make strategic investments into selling the rights to "fad" or "fashionable" books to other countries, at exorbitant prices. Just bear in mind that these "behind the curtains" moves take place. Every year, thousands of books originally written in English are translated in the non-English speaking world. The subtle difference is that they really have to compete with other translated books, even those written originally in languages that are not as widespread. Therefore, the quality of the literature is what matters in the long run.
Just like with movies: how much did the new version of "Spiderman" make in the opening week in the U.S., how much hype was around it, and how many people watch it right now? Or how much playing time will it enjoy in, say five years? Will anyone really remember it in 2023? I seriously doubt that. Then, were the people who flocked to the theaters to see it in the opening week wrong? Well, it depends on your point of view. Certainly, the media hype played a big part in artificially raising the film's value. Otherwise, the emperor was rather naked (thanks, H.C. Andersen, you'll surely outlast Rowling).
So, Silentbob, is this what you meant when you accused me of calling English-speaking people shallow etc, and said that I extoll the virtues of other cultures? I'm merely presenting some facts, and you react like an angry child who's told there's no Santa Claus. Sorry, if I might seem rude to you, but I'm being brutally honest. Methinks you should read again my post. You can't even figure out what you want to send out as a message to those reading the thread after you.
To round it up: I'm saying that the Potter phenomenon is hyped up in the English-speaking world, that other cultures might not be as crazy about it, and that the Potter-mania will go away, just like other icons before it did. Meanwhile, Tolkien (and it's why I put him alongside Frank Herbert) will continue to make people in many other countries gather around in circles of friends and talk about the theme of the Ring, the Elvish language and the geography of Middle-earth.
OK, so again I'm showing off with my culture, and I'm being pompous and an elitist in the eyes of some of you people. So what? Isn't this what a discussion is supposed to be, a sharing of opinions? Well, you have mine. You can choose to ignore me altogether. Or you can become furious and wish you'd Saddam(n) me. Like I said, if you want to counteract, you're welcome, I just hope it'll be in a more intelligent manner than up to now.
So, instead of carrying out a conversation, and crush me with some intelligent and well-documented replies, you are attacking the person, and say I'm too elitist.
Strange, I thought I can carry out a conversation slightly above high school level. That's called "elitism"? Bringing into discussion ideas that seem to elude you? Rather, this appears to have the same effect as a piece of red rag waved before a bull...
So we have Kal Jedi here, who says what I wrote is ********, but offers no counter-arguments. Well, considering that he wants to raise his (?) children on Pot(ter), and that reading the "Lord of the Rings" once in a lifetime was enough of an experience, I believe that I'm in good company.
Then along come SilentBob007, who brings into discussion exactly the same notions that I warned against. This is actually funny, because it's one of the common fallacies of the American way of thinking - a fascination for (as high as possible) numbers. You're a product of your environment, which relies too heavily on quantification and almost forsakes qualitative notions (with fascinating results, when you compare the two approaches). Dude, the books were translated into 26 different languages, but maybe you also should check out the final sales? I'm not going to go into explaining how publishing houses make strategic investments into selling the rights to "fad" or "fashionable" books to other countries, at exorbitant prices. Just bear in mind that these "behind the curtains" moves take place. Every year, thousands of books originally written in English are translated in the non-English speaking world. The subtle difference is that they really have to compete with other translated books, even those written originally in languages that are not as widespread. Therefore, the quality of the literature is what matters in the long run.
Just like with movies: how much did the new version of "Spiderman" make in the opening week in the U.S., how much hype was around it, and how many people watch it right now? Or how much playing time will it enjoy in, say five years? Will anyone really remember it in 2023? I seriously doubt that. Then, were the people who flocked to the theaters to see it in the opening week wrong? Well, it depends on your point of view. Certainly, the media hype played a big part in artificially raising the film's value. Otherwise, the emperor was rather naked (thanks, H.C. Andersen, you'll surely outlast Rowling).
So, Silentbob, is this what you meant when you accused me of calling English-speaking people shallow etc, and said that I extoll the virtues of other cultures? I'm merely presenting some facts, and you react like an angry child who's told there's no Santa Claus. Sorry, if I might seem rude to you, but I'm being brutally honest. Methinks you should read again my post. You can't even figure out what you want to send out as a message to those reading the thread after you.
To round it up: I'm saying that the Potter phenomenon is hyped up in the English-speaking world, that other cultures might not be as crazy about it, and that the Potter-mania will go away, just like other icons before it did. Meanwhile, Tolkien (and it's why I put him alongside Frank Herbert) will continue to make people in many other countries gather around in circles of friends and talk about the theme of the Ring, the Elvish language and the geography of Middle-earth.
OK, so again I'm showing off with my culture, and I'm being pompous and an elitist in the eyes of some of you people. So what? Isn't this what a discussion is supposed to be, a sharing of opinions? Well, you have mine. You can choose to ignore me altogether. Or you can become furious and wish you'd Saddam(n) me. Like I said, if you want to counteract, you're welcome, I just hope it'll be in a more intelligent manner than up to now.
Originally posted by Playitagainsam
Bull$hit.
Sorry, I just couldn't resist, but what some of you are saying is plain wrong.
First of all, you are all English-speaking people, and most of you live in the States. Remember that. You are more or less in a cocoon, a shell, but there's more out there.
I have not seen much (actually, not at all) interest in the Potter books in the rest of the world. Don't be fooled by what you might find in the media. Just talk to people. Maybe one of the reasons is because, as someone mentioned earlier, the Potter books are rooted too much in the modern (Anglo-Saxon, Western, Christian) culture, rather than going for the deep, rich vein of primordial myth.
I bet you'll have people in places you can't even find on the map reading Tolkien and never giving a second of attention to the rabbit-infatuated Rowling.
I believe that it's Potter that will fade away after a few years, just like Frank Baum's writings did. Hype does not mean anything - anyone here remember the books that were madly popular in 1989? Does anyone here remember how, even earlier on, people were swearing that Eugene Sue's books were "da bomb" ? Does the name "Pardaillan", (or the one of his author, Michel Zevaco) ring a bell?
I believe Tolkien's "Ring", along with Frank Herbert's "Dune", represent the Himalayas of this branch of literature. "Potter" is like the Stone Mountain in Georgia.
Another thing you should consider: Tolkien did his work alone, almost unknown, and poured a life's work in it. He was truly dedicated to his project, and had an excellent reputation as a language scholar to rely on. He did not work in the spotlight of the tabloids, was not pulled in the money-making schemes of the media conglomerates, and in general couldn't care less. He painstakingly and lovingly crafted his "Ring", without the pressure and demand of a publisher's contract for an X amount of pages/sequels. He was a true artist, and a real writer. Rowling is a Salieri to Tolkien's Mozart.
Bull$hit.
Sorry, I just couldn't resist, but what some of you are saying is plain wrong.
First of all, you are all English-speaking people, and most of you live in the States. Remember that. You are more or less in a cocoon, a shell, but there's more out there.
I have not seen much (actually, not at all) interest in the Potter books in the rest of the world. Don't be fooled by what you might find in the media. Just talk to people. Maybe one of the reasons is because, as someone mentioned earlier, the Potter books are rooted too much in the modern (Anglo-Saxon, Western, Christian) culture, rather than going for the deep, rich vein of primordial myth.
I bet you'll have people in places you can't even find on the map reading Tolkien and never giving a second of attention to the rabbit-infatuated Rowling.
I believe that it's Potter that will fade away after a few years, just like Frank Baum's writings did. Hype does not mean anything - anyone here remember the books that were madly popular in 1989? Does anyone here remember how, even earlier on, people were swearing that Eugene Sue's books were "da bomb" ? Does the name "Pardaillan", (or the one of his author, Michel Zevaco) ring a bell?
I believe Tolkien's "Ring", along with Frank Herbert's "Dune", represent the Himalayas of this branch of literature. "Potter" is like the Stone Mountain in Georgia.
Another thing you should consider: Tolkien did his work alone, almost unknown, and poured a life's work in it. He was truly dedicated to his project, and had an excellent reputation as a language scholar to rely on. He did not work in the spotlight of the tabloids, was not pulled in the money-making schemes of the media conglomerates, and in general couldn't care less. He painstakingly and lovingly crafted his "Ring", without the pressure and demand of a publisher's contract for an X amount of pages/sequels. He was a true artist, and a real writer. Rowling is a Salieri to Tolkien's Mozart.
I am not sure how old you are however being almost 41 years old now all I can say is that would anyone be surprised by the responses that you have received with the tone and manner of your posts.
Do you want to discuss things or are you only interested in trolling for flames?
You make attack after attack against people and then wonder why they respond in kind.
I just reported your posts to a moderator so that they can review your posting style.
The funny Thing is that I think that Tolkien's novels are great and am far less impressed with the Potter novels myself.
Now however you have me thinking that maybe I was not giving Potter a chance.
