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Question regarding Rings

Old 12-24-02, 12:57 AM
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Question regarding Rings

Okay,
I guess this ? is for the knowledgeable Rings Fans out there. I have read all the Rings and Hobbit (19 years ago) books
and I don't remember any mention of this in any of the books.

We all know what happened to the 9 Men who possessed Rings of Power, they became enslaved by Sauron and turned into Wraiths. But what of the other races? Galadriel was one of the 3 Elven ring bearers, so 3000 years prior to the events in Fellowship, when Elrond and Isildur were fighting Sauron, what was going on with Galadriel? Was she enslaved by Sauron, did she fight against him? What power, if any, did her ring exert over her?

I realize most people would not know the answer to this, but I am hoping there might be one or two of you out there who are better read in Tolkiens appendices and maybe even the Silmarillion, a book I have tried but failed to read.
Old 12-24-02, 01:06 AM
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The Elves upon hearing Sauron say the words scribed on The Ring knew they had been deceived and took off their rings and hid them. they only began using the rings when Sauron no longer wore The Ring.

Once Sauron would get The Ring back they would have to either never use their rings again or they would be enslaved. Both situations would mean that the areas protected and enhanced by the three Elvish rings would lose their protection and the race of Elves would fade that much faster.
Old 12-24-02, 01:49 AM
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is this from silmarillion? That book was too much for even me
Old 12-24-02, 11:29 AM
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When Sauron first put on the one ring, the elves detected what he had done and removed and hid their rings so they could not be controlled. They fought in the war against Sauron. After Sauron's defeat and the loss of the one ring the Elven rings were once again worn. Galadriel wears Nenya to preserve and protect Lothlorien, Elrond wears Vilya which was passed to him from Gilgalad to preserve and protect Rivendell, and Gandalf wears Narya which was given to him by Cirdan.

The dwarves were resistant to the magic in their seven rings, the only effect it seemed to have on them was to make them have a greater lust for gold. Their rings were eventually consumed by dragons or recovered by Sauron.

Some of this is from the Appendices in ROTK while some is from The Silmarillion and there were a few brief references to the history of the Elven rings in FOTR and ROTK.
Old 12-24-02, 12:25 PM
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It is also worth noting that the high elves fear the destruction of the One Ring even though they know it is the only way to save Middle Earth. If the One Ring is destroyed, it further diminishes the power of the elves as well because all of the power in the great rings is bound up together.
Old 12-24-02, 08:26 PM
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Re: Question regarding Rings

so 3000 years prior to the events in Fellowship, when Elrond and Isildur were fighting Sauron, what was going on with Galadriel? Was she enslaved by Sauron, did she fight against him?
Lorien is more of a retreat than just an elf town or city. It is meant to be hidden and secret, and in the book even the fellowship is a bit weary of going into the woods of Lorien, except Aragorn of course. Galadriel is keeper of Lorien and really doesn't want anything to do with Sauron and the darkness he brings to Middle Earth. Lorien is also supposed to be protected by enchantments that prevent people from finding it, but that is not so well documented, just suggested.

To really understand Galadriel's character you must read about her history in Silmarillion, where you hear about how she came with many of her kin from Valinor. Galadriel is the oldest living elf at the time of the books.

There's a ton of great history about Middle Earth in Silmarillion. It paints a very different picture of dwarves and elves than what you see in the 3 LOTR books.
Old 12-24-02, 11:32 PM
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I believe 4 of the seven dwarf rings were consumed by dragons, and the other 3 were recovered by Sauron. He sent an emissary to the Dwarf king under the mountain offering the remaining rings back to the dwarves in return for their alliegance. Gimli makes the trip to Rivendell to pass along this info, if I recall correctly.
Old 12-25-02, 12:37 AM
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Originally posted by sprmario
I believe 4 of the seven dwarf rings were consumed by dragons, and the other 3 were recovered by Sauron. He sent an emissary to the Dwarf king under the mountain offering the remaining rings back to the dwarves in return for their alliegance. Gimli makes the trip to Rivendell to pass along this info, if I recall correctly.

You know, I think I just read that in FOTR. He told them about the "offer" at the council of Elrond right?
Old 12-25-02, 10:24 AM
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Originally posted by Giantrobo
You know, I think I just read that in FOTR. He told them about the "offer" at the council of Elrond right?
I remember in Fellowship Of The Ring that 4 of the Rings bestowed upon the Dwarf Lords were eaten by a dragon and the other 3 were buried in the mines.

Also in FOTR there was a bit about an evil presence before Sauron and that during the First Age Sauron was "not yet evil to behold". There are some references that Sauron was a wizard from the same order as Gandalf and Sauraman. I'm a little fuzzy on it right now though if someone else has read the Simillarion and can remember more accurately I'd appreciate it if you'd pass along some info.
Old 12-25-02, 02:09 PM
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Also in FOTR there was a bit about an evil presence before Sauron and that during the First Age Sauron was "not yet evil to behold". There are some references that Sauron was a wizard from the same order as Gandalf and Sauraman. I'm a little fuzzy on it right now though if someone else has read the Simillarion and can remember more accurately I'd appreciate it if you'd pass along some info.
Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, and the other 2 wizards that came to Middle-earth were all of the order known as the Maiar. It is generally believed that Sauron was the most powerful of the Maiar, which is why even Gandalf seems fearful of facing him. In the First Age, Sauron was the 'right hand man' of the first Dark Lord, Morgoth. When Morgoth was overthrown and banished to the Void by the Valar, Sauron escaped and plotted his evil schemes for hundreds of years. When he finally reappeared in the Second Age, he called himself Annatar, The Lord of Gifts, and posed as a friend of Elves and Men. This is the period when the rings were made. He also tricked the king of Numenor into revolting against the Valar, bringing about the Downfall of Numenor. There's alot more to it, but that's a basic summary of the main events leading up to the war of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men at the end of the Second Age. I highly reccomend to anyone that's interested in this stuff to read The Silmarillion. Yes, it can be slow and difficult to read at times, but it is well worth the effort. I still find it amazing that Tolkien was able to create a world so rich in history and depth that it really feels like you're reading about events that actually occured.
Old 12-26-02, 08:26 AM
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Originally posted by sprmario
I believe 4 of the seven dwarf rings were consumed by dragons, and the other 3 were recovered by Sauron.
This is correct.

Originally posted by sprmario
He sent an emissary to the Dwarf king under the mountain offering the remaining rings back to the dwarves in return for their alliegance. Gimli makes the trip to Rivendell to pass along this info, if I recall correctly.
The only offer to the Dwarves I recall is that Sauron sent an emissary offering to return Khazad-Dum to the Dwarves, not he rings. I could be forgetting another offer but the rings don't seem a logical offer, they had little value to the dwarves who saw them as well designed trinkets of gold. But Khazad-Dum...now that was something of desire to the elves.

It is the offer of Khazad-Dum, along with the fact the Balrog allowed the goblins to live in Moria, that allows one to conclude that Sauron held inluence over the Balrog.
Old 12-27-02, 12:02 PM
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I thought that Sauron was mentioned as a 'head' balrog of Melkor in the Sil.?
Old 12-27-02, 12:37 PM
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When in doubt, go to Tolkien.
"Then about a year ago a messenger came to Dáin, but not from Moria –
from Mordor: a horseman in the night, who called Dáin to his gate. The Lord
Sauron the Great, so he said, wished for our friendship. Rings he would give
for it, such as he gave of old. And he asked urgently concerning _hobbits_, of
what kind they were, and where they dwelt. "For Sauron knows," said he, "that
one of these was known to you on a time."
'At this we were greatly troubled, and we gave no answer. And then his
fell voice was lowered, and he would have sweetened it if he could. "As a
small token only of your friendship Sauron asks this," he said: "that you
should find this thief," such was his word, "and get from him, willing or no,
a little ring, the least of rings, that once he stole. It is but a trifle that
Sauron fancies, and an earnest of your good will. Find it, and three rings
that the Dwarf sires possessed of old shall be returned to you, and the realm
of Moria shall be yours for ever. Find only news of the thief, whether he
still lives and where, and you shall have great reward and lasting friendship
from the Lord. Refuse, and things will not seem so well. Do you refuse?"
The seven rings were the basis of the fabled gold hoards of old. The Dwarves definitely valued them as they bred more gold.

Sauron was first lieutenant of Melkor/Morgoth. Although he was a Maia, just as Gandalf and Saruman and Balrogs are, he was not himself a Balrog. It's kind of like "I am an animal and a Dog is an animal, but I am not a Dog." In Tolkien there are different degrees of Maiar. Maiar are pretty much every spiritual being not Valar(only 14/15 of them), excluding Elves, Dwarves, Men, Ents, Orcs, Trolls, Dragons, animals (natural or perverted by Morgoth). There are some mystery beings that don't seem to fit into any catagory, like Tom Bombadil and maybe even Ungoliant the Spider (rumored to have been among the first spirits to come to Arda but seduced to Morgoth's service and then became a "free-agent").
Old 12-30-02, 12:20 PM
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I thought there was something in the Sil. when Sauron was first mentioned as Melkor's First Lt (when melkor's place was up north) he was mentioned as being a Balrog. I remember this because later on when he was mentioned as being a Maiar it confussed me.

So is Sauron a Maiar and a Balrog, since all Balrogs are Maiar? Your dog-animal thing didnt make it clear to me.
Old 12-30-02, 01:44 PM
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A great site to geek out is here

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

It does list Balrogs as Maia and spirits of fire seduced by Melkor.
Old 12-30-02, 01:48 PM
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Hope this doesn't become too lengthy, but here's Tolkien's Cosmology in a nutshell:
There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of me mind of Ilúvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unison and harmony.
Illuvatar had them sing together.
But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself. To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren.
Illuvatar had them sing 2 themes, both of which were corrupted by the discordance of Melkor. Illuvatar made a third theme by himself. Then all was silent. He then took the themes and brought them into vision as Arda (the Earth) and the Children of Illuvatar, that is the Elves and Men. He charged the Ainur to enter the vision and actually build Arda. Several of the spirits came into the world while a few stayed in heaven. Of the spirits that came to Arda, the most powerful were the Valar (Vala is the singular, Valar is the plural). It was their job to prepare Arda for the coming of the Children of Illuvatar. There were 14 Valar. Some were more powerful or important than others. Manwë was lord over winds and airs. Ulmo was lord of waters. Aulë was lord of the substances of which Arda is made. The rest of the Valar took other roles.
And the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves, and they laboured together in the ordering of the Earth and the curbing of its tumults. Then Melkor saw what was done, and that the Valar walked on Earth as powers visible, clad in the raiment of the World, and were lovely and glorious to see, and blissful, and that the Earth was becoming as a garden for their delight, for its turmoils were subdued. His envy grew then the greater within him; and he also took visible form, but because of his mood and the malice that burned in him that form was dark and terrible. And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold.
With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the World, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree. These are the Maiar, the people of the Valar, and their servants and helpers. Their number is not known to the Elves, and few have names in any of the tongues of the Children of Ilúvatar; for though it is otherwise in Aman, in Middle-earth the Maiar have seldom appeared in form visible to Elves and Men.
of Melkor
Yet so great was the power of his uprising that in ages forgotten he contended with Manwë and all the Valar, and through long years in Arda held dominion over most of the lands of the Earth. But he was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.
Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.
The Balrogs were fire spirits drawn to Melkor early on and were his greatest warriors. Sauron was seduced to Melkor's service and became a sorcerer and shapeshifter. One fire spirit not drawn to Melkor eventually became the Sun.

In summary: There is God who is called Eru or Illuvatar. He stays in Heaven. Then the 14 Valar, who are Illuvatar's "gods on earth". Melkor is kind of a Super Valar and is roughly equal to Satan. Both the Valar and Melkor have helper spirits called Maiar. Maiar take many forms. Most never take bodies and remain spirits, but some do. Among these helper spirits are Balrogs who took form as demons of fire and shadow. Melkor's chief servant is Sauron who was a servant of Aule and was seduced to the dark side by Melkor. One of Aule's other servants was the being that became Saruman. Manwe's servant Olorin became Gandalf. The other Wizards were servants of other Valar.
Old 12-31-02, 06:37 PM
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Originally posted by DaveNinja
I thought there was something in the Sil. when Sauron was first mentioned as Melkor's First Lt (when melkor's place was up north) he was mentioned as being a Balrog. I remember this because later on when he was mentioned as being a Maiar it confussed me.

So is Sauron a Maiar and a Balrog, since all Balrogs are Maiar? Your dog-animal thing didnt make it clear to me.
Sauron is a Maia, but he is NOT a Balrog. The dog-animal example is trying to convey the fact that:

"All dogs are animals, but not all animals are dogs."

Similarly:

"All Balrogs are Maiar, but not all Maiar are Balrogs."

By the way, I don't remember anything in the Silmarillion that said Sauron was a Balrog.
Old 01-01-03, 03:03 AM
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Thank you all for your answers, I got a hold of a copy of The Tolien Encyclopedia, since there are so many questions one can come up with about the history. Someone earlier had a question about Tom Bombadil, I dont have the encyclopedia in front of me, but I believe it did say that Bombadil was also a Maia. For some reason he only has power in the forest.

I suggest to anybody who has the interest to pick up this book, it has a great deal of info in it, and is actually quite a bit of fun to just leaf through at your leisure.
Old 01-01-03, 01:47 PM
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It's an enjoyable read (David Day, I believe), but it has a lot of errors and misinterpretations. Go onto a dedicated Tolkien forum and ask what they think of Day's works and you'll get the same response you do here for advocating full screen presentations of all movies. The Complete Guide to Middle Earth by Robert Foster is considered more authoritative. Even Christopher Tolkien used it for reference for The History of Middle Earth series.
Old 01-02-03, 11:53 AM
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Ok, thats for clearing it up. I got confussed by this part:

Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.
Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel.

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