what are your problems with TTT?
 

My main problem with TTT is that it doesn't seem to have a heart like Fellowship of the Ring did. Fellowship was more emotionally involving, with lots of scenes between Gandalf / Bimbo / Frodo. To me, TTT seemed very rushed, as if it was in a hurry to tell the story. I hope Return of the King brings the necessary heart back.

This thread isn't meant to be a troll thread, just a thread for you to name some aspects of TTT that you did not like.

Re: what are your problems with TTT?
 

I liked the scenes with Bimbo in FOTR too? But in TTT, the scene where Bimbo tells her father she will stay with the hairy man was a bit disapointing.

First off I have to say that I loved this movie, it was amazing, but there were a few things that bothered me: (please excuse my ignorance as to the names of many of the lesser known characters/creatures)

When Pippen & Merrie(sp?) where sitting on top of the tree as he walked through the forest something about it looked fake, I mean I know it was probably shot in front of a blue screen, but just something about it made it look obvious that they were superimposed. The same thing bothered me in the first film when the fellowship was running from the large fire demon/beast in the mines, they just looked really baddly superimposed over the fire

The scene durring the battle at Helms Deep when Legolas used a shield to slide down the stairs as he shot at the Orcs. Now I will admit that the scene was very cool, and I think Legolas is a complete badass, but something about that just seemed really out of place in that battle.

Certain parts of the story seemed rushed to me, in particular I would have liked to have had a little more about the kingdom of Rohan before Aragon & Co. show up.

Anyone catch that one overhead 'helicopter' shot of Legolas, Gimli, and Aragon running and something falls off of Gimli (goof?).

Who is Bimbo?

The only problems I had were two deliberate departures from the book which didn't appear to really serve a purpose...and at the worst case, detracted from the story.

1. The whole Aragorn falling off the cliff.
2. Faramir taking the ringbearer crew back to Osgiliath. (and the subsequent happenings there)

...other than that, it was a great ride. :)

I think Bimbo = Bilbo, but I could be wrong.

Well, where to begin...

I had HUGE expectations of this movie. I am a massive fan of the books having read them annually for a number of years. I loved FOTR and was prepared to forgive Peter Jackson for the changes he made to that (esp. after viewing the EE). But...

I was disappointed with The Two Towers. Many of the changes were to me unforgivable.



It lost its Tolkein-ness for me.

Add to that my annoyance with:


Impressive was:


I think I set too high expectations for myself, becuase I found myself shaking my head at many parts. Damn why did it have to be this way. FOTR was truly beautiful, this was a miss. As a standalone movie (i.e. not adaptation of Tolkien's work) it is mighty impressive and very well made, but as a movie of a great book it was a let down.

MY 2.5 cents

Can

Needs more Faramir. He got hosed royally in TTT. His chapters in the book seemed to me to be Tolkien's homage to the Robin Hood legends. In the movie, Faramir's little more than a shifty-eyed thug out to get the ring -- until Osgilaith, which was totally, TOTALLY unconvincing. I guess Jackson etc. felt the change was necessary in order to give Frodo (and Sam) something active "to do" during this section, but he should have realized he also needed to establish Faramir better for RotK.

The actor playing him did a good job, though, and is believable as Sean Bean's brother. The other changes (the Ents, Arwen) I can understand because they either compress the story or make it more accessible to a general audience. I don't think that's the case with Faramir, and am somewhat baffled as to what Jackson what thinking.

The pacing seemed off somewhat. Just as you're getting into gear over at Helm's Deep, you suddenly cut to the Merry/Pippin storyline where they basically did nothing.

The Ents looked fine to me. But the fact that they were practically "tricked" into joining the war was kinda reaching IMO. These were supposed to be wise creatures.

Like others have mentioned, the whole deal with Faramir. I don't see why they couldn't have just followed the book for that part of the story.

Not enough Eowyn. :D

I think Arwen.

My 'problems' or questions about TTT:

The elf who leads the army to Helm's Deep - he looked like the elf who held them up when they reach Galadriel, yet he tells everyone Elrond sent him. I could be way off here - I'll have to watch FOTR again...

Too many dreams/flashbacks - esp. the Arwen/Aragorn story. I don't know, this just didn't sit well with me.

Some of the CGI looked obvious - I really noticed it early when Golem was in the same shot as Frodo/Sam.

Yeah, Faramir is more creepy in TTT, but I think this matches up with the extra creepiness (compared to the book) of Boromir in FOTR.

Hope I'm not picking too many nits.

Overall I loved this movie and I think my problems with it will be lessend with time and an EE version. For me the Ents were a let down, the forest wasn't as menacing as I expected and the battle at Isengard was too quick with too few trees. I try hard not to compare the movies to the book but the bit with Aragorn falling off the cliff was pointless as was the trip to Osgiath. Didn't mid the Aragron/Arwen bits (can't get enough of Aragorn) but thought the conflict about there relationship was over played. I certainly didn't remenber it as such a big deal in the book.

I think I agree with every single point you made. (nice to know I'm not alone)

I didn't like how they made Gimli the comic relief. At first it was funny but when they tried to make him funny at the battle of Helms Deep, I was disappointed with it. It's suppose to be a serious event, kind of like the last battle sequence at the end of FOTR. There shouldn't be any more jokes when we're seeing a battle. The mood changes from "bad a$$" to "another blockbuster with cheesy one liners". I also felt like what Citizen said, it doesn't have heart. It seemed like everything was just put together. It's still a cool movie, I have to watch it one more time to see if I change my mind about it. When I first saw FOTR, I also didn't like it but now it's one of my favorite movies, so who knows!

That I have to wait a year for ROTK. :D

Seriously, I don't want to nitpick until I have seen this movie at least 1 or 2 more times. As a longtime fan of the books, it's just too much to assimilate right now. It was the same thing last year with FOTR--just a feeling of being stunned, like I can't believe what I'm watching, analytical mind fighting the part of me that just wants to be with the movie and dream it.

The film is far too rich to pass judgment on it right away--and I say that to other book fans as well.

I thought this movie was more emotionally involving than FOTR. Maybe I'm alone here but I hate Frodo with a passion. I hate indecisive sniffling characters, and I find his dealing with himself really annoying and trite. In FOTR, the emotion was mostly about Frodo and whether he feels he can handle this task that was meant for him to do. In TTT, the feeling of helplessness and fighting a "lost cause" for the people of Rohan was MUCH more dramatic, as you can see King Theodan trying to do the best for his people and the honorable thing as he sees fit. TTT portrays Theodan as a kind of ruthless ruler but also masterfully reveals the honor within himself. The emotion on his character when the helms deep walls were dynamited was awesome to behold, as it transforms his confidence completely from "is this all that Sarumon got" to "retreat to the keep!"

The other heroes Aragon, Legolas, and Gimli also continues their mission with great determination in the book, as Aragon recovers (or not) immediately to fight at helms deep. Legolas proceeded in the movie with a calm warriorness about him and yet even he lost his cool in the armory argument with Aragon. This shows the great determination and sacrafice without logic that these hero show, instead of Frodo's whiney little butt saying "I never wanted the ring".

TTT was good because... LESS FRODO THE BETTER!

Having not read the book in its entirety (*puts on flameproof suit*), I was'n bothered by plot changes. I do think the Faramir scenes were a bit hokey, but here were my problems.

Bad CGI with the Gandalf/demon sequence (as they fall down).
Ents look like creatures from Neverending Story.
Merr and Pippin on a branch for 80% of the movie.
Some hokey forced speeches.

Otherwise, a very good film. Funny thing is, CGI looked better 2nd time around, and movie got slower 2nd time around.

What you said. I totally agree with the changes. However, when I went in I realized from reading interviews that this one was going to get fudged a bit. In all honesty, this film is quite good for being a bridge piece. You do have a good argument about it not having the heart of FOTR, but you must realize that if ever a story is to show its heart it is at the beginning and very end. I knew this movie would have a lot going against it for being so much of an obvious filler time between to high points flick. I will not say that I thought it had no heart, it still had some, but overall it was lacking in that element, but that was to be expected.
Now on to people who have issues with the changes. They are fudged, no mistake about that, and the two big ones are those I really do not care for . However, you cannot deny the sweeping nature and scope of this picture as an epic masterpiece. There are many people who haven't read the books nor seen the movie that couldn't give a babboon's butt about the changes or that the movies exist at all. However, what we LOTR fans need to realize is that it is a miracle these movies got made at all. Miramax was going to insist on it all being one film, imagine how bad it would have been if that had happened? We need to be thankful that we not only have a film version of these books, but one that does remain faithful when it can and in all honesty still keeps the story in tact. Please realize just how lucky you are to have this movie in such grand glory.

In short: film and book, two different mediums. Never expect a total translation without some major changes. Later!

The film was great.

Some things I didn't like about it are:

I kind of found Sam's speech uplifiting. Guess I'm just a sucker! ;)

I also agree that Faramir should have been shown differently. It felt a bit too rushed. Am I the only one that thinks Gollum looks like Peter Lorre? Too much comic relief at the wrong times.

I think that depends more on the audience member and not the film itself. My audience laughed at first, but was later dead silent as it sunk in just how much torment was occurring. Once they accepted it, they never laughed at the later ones.

For those who have problems with the books, please read the first post of this thread, it echos my sentiments.

http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthr...hreadid=258516

There is just so much to take in on the first viewing that I really dont want to say what did and did not bother me yet. I have seen a few comments about the Sam speech near the end being too much, but I agree with Dr. DVD... I really enjoyed that part :)

I did think Gollum was terrific, but some of his movements when he was in Smeagol mode may have been a bit too exaggerated...
I would have liked to see more with Merry and Pippen and the ents.
I do think Frodo got violent a bit too early...

I need to see this a couple more times to be able to digest everything that happened.
A terrific film.

Brian

I just wish the battle scenes had a little more violence to them. I don't mean over-the-top gorryness, or anything like the opening of Saving Private Ryan. But just a little more hard-hitting than it was in order to give more weight to the battles and to the loss of lives.
But then it would've been rated R.

Here's hoping for an R rated extended edition dvd.

I wish there had been far more explanation of what exactly the Ents were, how old, how they came to be. Let's not be hasty, though. And the attack on Isengard was excellent, but I expected five times as many trees as were shown. Perhaps I don't remember correctly from the book, but I always envisioned more Ents.

stoolie

I wanted to stand up and boo the screen when Faramir says he's taking the ring to Gondor. I mean it's Farimir, not Boromir. They are complete opposites. It just wasn't right and I don't see how it improves the film. I would have also liked to have seen some closure with Sarumon. Perhaps they'll move the conversation with Galdalf & Sarumon to the 3rd movie.

One more thing: What about the trees at Helm's Deep? Correct me if i'm wrong but at the end of the battle, doesn't the orc army get swallowed up by an entire forest?

Overall a very entertaining movie but doesn't stick to the book as close as The Fellowship did.

Maybe he'll put a couple hundered more ents in the EE of TTT. ;P

You never know. Anyway the only thing I didn't like it just a LITTLE too much Arwen Aragorn kissing. One time is fine. But then another, then one more for just SECONDS too long. Tell us the story, we see they are a couple already.

I hated the part where Legolas slid down the stairs firing arrows. And the comedy at Helm's Deep seemed out of place. It sort of took away from the dread. The whole 'dwarf tossing' scene was pretty lame.

The Battle of Helm's deep didn't really end conclusively. One minute we see the Rohirim charging into the orcs, and the next thing you know, the battles over. I also didn't like the scenes with the horses charging into the wall of pikes. Anyone who knows anything about mideval warfare knows that horses won't charge head-on into a wall of pikes. But what the hell, this was a fantasy movie.

The scenes with Faramir, the elves at Helm's Deep and Aragorn falling off the cliff threw me off at first, but I imagine I'll learn to except them (the changes made in FOTR don't bother me anymore, either).

Woord! Tossing the dwarf was funny in fotr but in this one it seemed like the put it cus everybody laughed in the first one. I know they shot everything at once but they should've edited out.

Gimli being a lame comic foible and the Legolas snowboarding scene. Nothing will date a film faster than one of these cheesy ESPN2, “extreme sports” moments.

When I read the chapter "Helm's Deep" in TTT I thought it was kinda strange Legolas and Gimli would have a contest like that in the middle of desperate battle. PJ followed the book. Now people are unhappy he put it in? Make up your minds people.

In Helm's Deep it is the Huorns (Ent-like) that kill most of the fleeing Uruk-Hai from Erkenbrand's and King Theoden's calvary charge. In a 3 hr movie if PJ were to place Treebeard, Entmoot, and the long space of time for the Huorns to be in place before, the movie would have dragged for general audiences. I think PJ was forced to make this change.

But I agree they should have shown the fleeing of the Uruk-Hai from Helm's Deep. The battle did seem to just abruptly end. And so did the drowning of Isengard. But there are others who complain the battles were too long. Oh, Well.


That's why we really need to see what PJ does with the Extended Edition.

Not really. He just slides down it. It's not like he grabs the side, spins, then lands and with two thumbs up signs says, "EXTREME ORC FIGHTING 2K3!" to a soundtrack by Sum 41.

Battle scenes long, oh come on, the way all three different wars played out seemed way to choppy and lacked rhythm. Helm's Deep was very disappointing (IMO). Sure the film was constrained due to it's PG-13 rating, but the intensity wasn't there. As another forum member pointed out there was little sword to sword dueling, just mostly arrow impacts. Could you imagine if PJ had retained the Huorons attacking the orcs (and went for an R-rating) you would seen alot of impaling and limb removing.

What happened to the whole exhibition of the Massive program? I thought we were gonna see them "particles" fight each other as if each one had a brain? The only time I think they really showed it combat-wise is when Aragorn and Gimli are on the bridge fighting off all the Uruk-hai. Other than that, it was all just groups of uruk hai going from point A to point B in a swarm.

So many things were done so well. The first hour was just dead on, matching my preconcieved thoughts. Peter really went all out, giving us so much from the book...the dead marshes, the living pool, the black gates, the Urak Hai piled & burning, the ents, the wraiths & their steeds, and on and on.

In the end, when I walked out of the movie, I was disappointed as I don't think it reached the emotional level that FOTR reached.

Upon reflection after several days, three things stand out:

1. The score was not impressive. It may have been the theater as I think it was being played a few notches below reference. I'm always disappointed in the retail theaters as I've been spoiled by my HT.

2. The editing. Just as I was inching forward in my seat, the scene switched. Pacing, continuity and emotional investment was instantly lost. I think PJ could have improved it to a great extent just by eliminating 3-4 of the jumps and allowing some of the scenes to be played out. They need to get the editor from CSI ;-)

3. The levity. LOTR is not a fun book. It doesn't have jokes or laughs. It's mounting tension, continually applying the pressure, is relentless. That's why once you get 1/2 through the TTT, you will not stop reading. I was really disappointed in the audience as they laughed at Gollum / Smeagal. It was NOT funny and they really made me angry because I missed dialogue over the laughter. However, PJ obviously put several jokes in there that simply do not belong. Keep it serious.

No doubt when this comes out on DVD, I will like it so much more. No audience to distract me and a sound system that puts all retail theaters to shame, will hopefully make it a lot better, but not perfect as the editing and pacing will still be off.

Tman

1. the weird mounting of the horse by Legolas was just too awkward for me.
it just seemed unbelievable and odd to display a strange talent like that at that moment.

2. when aragorn mounts his horse after falling off the cliff. the cinematography
changes and breaks to an odd style not seen in the rest of the movie.

3. a few less dwarf jokes would have been nice. (although i'll take him and gollum over jar jar binks anyday)

other than that i love it.

rotfl

No, your right. That’s the scene from the George Lucas version. Still, this scene seemed like an un-Jackson like attempt to win over the 6-13 year old demographic.

I was gratified that there were no “Rock Troll Poo-Doo!” jokes. At least he has most of his dignity intact.

I haven't read the book, so disregard my comments based on that if you like, but...

My immediate impression after seeing it just today was that it does NOT work well as a standalone film. The story is told well enough, but there's a constant sense of reliance on another source for momentum. There's no inner momentum within the film itself, maybe due to the simplistic characterisations (and simplistic 'message'). It just seemed dead to me despite the spectacular effects.

There also were too many cheap Hollywoodisms for my taste. I.E., the essentially non-story based and way to contemporary aside jokes... and the gratuitous, incongruous battle scene flashbacks at the end (especially cheesy and somewhat confessional). Dialogue in general was down a notch from the first installment allowing more of a sense of artifice. I would have liked the Gollum character more if it hadn't been drawn so bluntly... again, that just kept me from getting involved with the film.

Overall, I'm very surprised at the across the board positive reviews. I enjoyed the first one but in the balance didn't like Towers much at all.

As someone who read the book a long time ago, I'm still trying to remember all of the story line from that when comparing it to what I just saw last night. It really isn't fair to compare this to say "The Empire Strikes Back" or some other "bridge" movie in a trilogy. Most others that are out there were developed as "movies", not derived from a large literary work that was written in such a way that it demanded being read together. I didn't expect TTT to be self-contained or do a lot of character development that was done earlier in FOTR. A lot of the complaints about characters and scenes around them in TTT not going anywhere (i.e. Aragorn and Eowyn) will really have to wait until ROTK to make a final assessment as to how they fit in this film. If they left too many introductions until ROTK, then that would be a large mess trying to cover too much ground in that movie and we'd get even more lost.

One thing I might have liked better would have been to have not cross cut so much in and out of the scenes with Merry and Pippin and the Ents and the other story threads. The cross-cutting of the other story events seemed more appropriate, but the ents Fangorn forest almost seemed too dark to me (which matched the dark mood of the other parts of the film). I would have like more a slower paced interlude in the middle of the movie where there's a lot of mystery and some hints that a lot could change at the drop of the hat and that it wouldn't be a normal forest, but having it be more in the daytime and be impressed with the scope and size of it and a more stoic and slow-paced set of ents there that took Merry and Pippin away from the surrounding tumultitude for the moment.

It seemed like Merry and Pippin were aware of the other story arcs that we were all aware of with the cross cutting that appeared to be happening "that moment" and were echoing the audience's anxiety to the ents of the need to do something quickly. I felt that we lost the mood of timelessness that was supposed to be present in Fangorn forest when that happened. Merry and Pippin wouldn't be knowing what was happening outside of Fangorn "by the minute" and though they might at times be wanting to move faster than Treebeard and company, I didn't get the same sense of place I had when reading the book.

By contrast, I think, though necessarily short for theater pacing, the Dead Marshes were pretty well done in communicating a different atmosphere, feeling, and pacing to Frodo, Sam and Gollum that I felt more close to what the book was communicating.

Hopefully the EE will handle some of these a little better. If they add scenes of Merry and Pippin with Ent-draught, etc. that might do it.

I don't see most of these changes as unforgivable, just necessary concessions to make a film accessible by a broad ranging audience.

I think explaining the "poisoning" of Theoden's mind by Wormtongue (to those who have not read the book) would have been more confusing. For this modification was more exciting and was good for Gandalf's character...

Aragorn falling from the cliff fits real well with the recurring theme of not losing hope or counting anyone out...

The elves at Helm's deep kept the elves in the picture. Otherwise, they're out of the story until ROTK. And, while I would have been fine with the Huorns at Helm's Deep, it might have been too much "tree people" for one 3 hour movie. The elves are a tolerable modification to make the battle more believable.

I kind of liked the change to Faramir for the purpose of the movie. He does turn out more honorable then Boromir in that he realizes the danger and allows Frodo to continue his quest. But in being tempted and overcoming that he a) establishes that man can be tempted and overcome it and b) re-establishes Aragorn (correctly) as a breed apart from normal men.

The Nazgul were closer to the ring at Amon Sul then PJ put them in Osgiliath, so no problem there. It creates a nice opportunity for Sam, too.

However, I do agree and think the worst parts were the excessive humor and Legolas' stair surfing. I also thought the CG Wargs were poorly done.