I wanted to stand up and boo the screen when Faramir says he's taking the ring to Gondor. I mean it's Farimir, not Boromir. They are complete opposites. It just wasn't right and I don't see how it improves the film. I would have also liked to have seen some closure with Sarumon. Perhaps they'll move the conversation with Galdalf & Sarumon to the 3rd movie.

One more thing: What about the trees at Helm's Deep? Correct me if i'm wrong but at the end of the battle, doesn't the orc army get swallowed up by an entire forest?

Overall a very entertaining movie but doesn't stick to the book as close as The Fellowship did.

Maybe he'll put a couple hundered more ents in the EE of TTT. ;P

You never know. Anyway the only thing I didn't like it just a LITTLE too much Arwen Aragorn kissing. One time is fine. But then another, then one more for just SECONDS too long. Tell us the story, we see they are a couple already.

I hated the part where Legolas slid down the stairs firing arrows. And the comedy at Helm's Deep seemed out of place. It sort of took away from the dread. The whole 'dwarf tossing' scene was pretty lame.

The Battle of Helm's deep didn't really end conclusively. One minute we see the Rohirim charging into the orcs, and the next thing you know, the battles over. I also didn't like the scenes with the horses charging into the wall of pikes. Anyone who knows anything about mideval warfare knows that horses won't charge head-on into a wall of pikes. But what the hell, this was a fantasy movie.

The scenes with Faramir, the elves at Helm's Deep and Aragorn falling off the cliff threw me off at first, but I imagine I'll learn to except them (the changes made in FOTR don't bother me anymore, either).

Woord! Tossing the dwarf was funny in fotr but in this one it seemed like the put it cus everybody laughed in the first one. I know they shot everything at once but they should've edited out.

Gimli being a lame comic foible and the Legolas snowboarding scene. Nothing will date a film faster than one of these cheesy ESPN2, “extreme sports” moments.

When I read the chapter "Helm's Deep" in TTT I thought it was kinda strange Legolas and Gimli would have a contest like that in the middle of desperate battle. PJ followed the book. Now people are unhappy he put it in? Make up your minds people.

In Helm's Deep it is the Huorns (Ent-like) that kill most of the fleeing Uruk-Hai from Erkenbrand's and King Theoden's calvary charge. In a 3 hr movie if PJ were to place Treebeard, Entmoot, and the long space of time for the Huorns to be in place before, the movie would have dragged for general audiences. I think PJ was forced to make this change.

But I agree they should have shown the fleeing of the Uruk-Hai from Helm's Deep. The battle did seem to just abruptly end. And so did the drowning of Isengard. But there are others who complain the battles were too long. Oh, Well.


That's why we really need to see what PJ does with the Extended Edition.

Not really. He just slides down it. It's not like he grabs the side, spins, then lands and with two thumbs up signs says, "EXTREME ORC FIGHTING 2K3!" to a soundtrack by Sum 41.

Battle scenes long, oh come on, the way all three different wars played out seemed way to choppy and lacked rhythm. Helm's Deep was very disappointing (IMO). Sure the film was constrained due to it's PG-13 rating, but the intensity wasn't there. As another forum member pointed out there was little sword to sword dueling, just mostly arrow impacts. Could you imagine if PJ had retained the Huorons attacking the orcs (and went for an R-rating) you would seen alot of impaling and limb removing.

What happened to the whole exhibition of the Massive program? I thought we were gonna see them "particles" fight each other as if each one had a brain? The only time I think they really showed it combat-wise is when Aragorn and Gimli are on the bridge fighting off all the Uruk-hai. Other than that, it was all just groups of uruk hai going from point A to point B in a swarm.

So many things were done so well. The first hour was just dead on, matching my preconcieved thoughts. Peter really went all out, giving us so much from the book...the dead marshes, the living pool, the black gates, the Urak Hai piled & burning, the ents, the wraiths & their steeds, and on and on.

In the end, when I walked out of the movie, I was disappointed as I don't think it reached the emotional level that FOTR reached.

Upon reflection after several days, three things stand out:

1. The score was not impressive. It may have been the theater as I think it was being played a few notches below reference. I'm always disappointed in the retail theaters as I've been spoiled by my HT.

2. The editing. Just as I was inching forward in my seat, the scene switched. Pacing, continuity and emotional investment was instantly lost. I think PJ could have improved it to a great extent just by eliminating 3-4 of the jumps and allowing some of the scenes to be played out. They need to get the editor from CSI ;-)

3. The levity. LOTR is not a fun book. It doesn't have jokes or laughs. It's mounting tension, continually applying the pressure, is relentless. That's why once you get 1/2 through the TTT, you will not stop reading. I was really disappointed in the audience as they laughed at Gollum / Smeagal. It was NOT funny and they really made me angry because I missed dialogue over the laughter. However, PJ obviously put several jokes in there that simply do not belong. Keep it serious.

No doubt when this comes out on DVD, I will like it so much more. No audience to distract me and a sound system that puts all retail theaters to shame, will hopefully make it a lot better, but not perfect as the editing and pacing will still be off.

Tman

1. the weird mounting of the horse by Legolas was just too awkward for me.
it just seemed unbelievable and odd to display a strange talent like that at that moment.

2. when aragorn mounts his horse after falling off the cliff. the cinematography
changes and breaks to an odd style not seen in the rest of the movie.

3. a few less dwarf jokes would have been nice. (although i'll take him and gollum over jar jar binks anyday)

other than that i love it.

No, your right. That’s the scene from the George Lucas version. Still, this scene seemed like an un-Jackson like attempt to win over the 6-13 year old demographic.

I was gratified that there were no “Rock Troll Poo-Doo!” jokes. At least he has most of his dignity intact.

I haven't read the book, so disregard my comments based on that if you like, but...

My immediate impression after seeing it just today was that it does NOT work well as a standalone film. The story is told well enough, but there's a constant sense of reliance on another source for momentum. There's no inner momentum within the film itself, maybe due to the simplistic characterisations (and simplistic 'message'). It just seemed dead to me despite the spectacular effects.

There also were too many cheap Hollywoodisms for my taste. I.E., the essentially non-story based and way to contemporary aside jokes... and the gratuitous, incongruous battle scene flashbacks at the end (especially cheesy and somewhat confessional). Dialogue in general was down a notch from the first installment allowing more of a sense of artifice. I would have liked the Gollum character more if it hadn't been drawn so bluntly... again, that just kept me from getting involved with the film.

Overall, I'm very surprised at the across the board positive reviews. I enjoyed the first one but in the balance didn't like Towers much at all.

As someone who read the book a long time ago, I'm still trying to remember all of the story line from that when comparing it to what I just saw last night. It really isn't fair to compare this to say "The Empire Strikes Back" or some other "bridge" movie in a trilogy. Most others that are out there were developed as "movies", not derived from a large literary work that was written in such a way that it demanded being read together. I didn't expect TTT to be self-contained or do a lot of character development that was done earlier in FOTR. A lot of the complaints about characters and scenes around them in TTT not going anywhere (i.e. Aragorn and Eowyn) will really have to wait until ROTK to make a final assessment as to how they fit in this film. If they left too many introductions until ROTK, then that would be a large mess trying to cover too much ground in that movie and we'd get even more lost.

One thing I might have liked better would have been to have not cross cut so much in and out of the scenes with Merry and Pippin and the Ents and the other story threads. The cross-cutting of the other story events seemed more appropriate, but the ents Fangorn forest almost seemed too dark to me (which matched the dark mood of the other parts of the film). I would have like more a slower paced interlude in the middle of the movie where there's a lot of mystery and some hints that a lot could change at the drop of the hat and that it wouldn't be a normal forest, but having it be more in the daytime and be impressed with the scope and size of it and a more stoic and slow-paced set of ents there that took Merry and Pippin away from the surrounding tumultitude for the moment.

It seemed like Merry and Pippin were aware of the other story arcs that we were all aware of with the cross cutting that appeared to be happening "that moment" and were echoing the audience's anxiety to the ents of the need to do something quickly. I felt that we lost the mood of timelessness that was supposed to be present in Fangorn forest when that happened. Merry and Pippin wouldn't be knowing what was happening outside of Fangorn "by the minute" and though they might at times be wanting to move faster than Treebeard and company, I didn't get the same sense of place I had when reading the book.

By contrast, I think, though necessarily short for theater pacing, the Dead Marshes were pretty well done in communicating a different atmosphere, feeling, and pacing to Frodo, Sam and Gollum that I felt more close to what the book was communicating.

Hopefully the EE will handle some of these a little better. If they add scenes of Merry and Pippin with Ent-draught, etc. that might do it.

I don't see most of these changes as unforgivable, just necessary concessions to make a film accessible by a broad ranging audience.

I think explaining the "poisoning" of Theoden's mind by Wormtongue (to those who have not read the book) would have been more confusing. For this modification was more exciting and was good for Gandalf's character...

Aragorn falling from the cliff fits real well with the recurring theme of not losing hope or counting anyone out...

The elves at Helm's deep kept the elves in the picture. Otherwise, they're out of the story until ROTK. And, while I would have been fine with the Huorns at Helm's Deep, it might have been too much "tree people" for one 3 hour movie. The elves are a tolerable modification to make the battle more believable.

I kind of liked the change to Faramir for the purpose of the movie. He does turn out more honorable then Boromir in that he realizes the danger and allows Frodo to continue his quest. But in being tempted and overcoming that he a) establishes that man can be tempted and overcome it and b) re-establishes Aragorn (correctly) as a breed apart from normal men.

The Nazgul were closer to the ring at Amon Sul then PJ put them in Osgiliath, so no problem there. It creates a nice opportunity for Sam, too.

However, I do agree and think the worst parts were the excessive humor and Legolas' stair surfing. I also thought the CG Wargs were poorly done.

I did not like the scene of the village in Rohan being burned. The mom says good bye and puts the kiddies on the horse. Later they show up and fall off said horse. Then they have some soup. Then they find mom at Helm's Deep. YAY!!!!

What a waste of my time. When I hear directors talk about the cuts they HAD to make for pacing or whatever, and then see something like this left in, it makes me wonder.

It provided another human element to the story.

Badly.

The elf you refer to is Haldir, and he is the same one who they encountered in Lothlorien in the first film.

What may seem a bit confusing is that Elrond is, essentially, Lord of all elves in Middle Earth. While Galadriel is the Queen of the elves of Lothlorien, in matters of war, she concedes to Elrond. In fact, this is suggested in the scene in which her and Elrond communicate. Elrond's stubborness to abandon Middle Earth for the Grey Havens is challenged by her words - we do not know he was swayed enough until the elves arrive at Helm's Deep.

Of course, none of this is in the book - but it makes for a pretty cool scene in the film.

-matt

First of all don't get me wrong I did enjoy the movie, but I did have a few minor problems with it.

My main problem was pacing. As with FOTR there were too many long streches where I was just waiting for something to happen. It probably would have been better if it was trimmed a half hour or maybee even more. It makes me yern for the DVD so I can make use of the fast forwors button.

The other problem I had was with much ofthe CG. So much of it just didn't look right. For example: I thought Golum looked awesome, but he didn't seem to match the environment with the other charactors very well (he didn't seem to occupy the same space). In other scenes it seemed the charactors were pasted on to the background (in too obvious bluescreen shots), as if the movie was shot 20 years ago. I know im gonna get flammed for the next statement but... it makes you appreciate the CG in the Star wars Prequels even more. (I know AOTC had criticisms for some of the CG, but the CG in TTT doesn't compare)

Ok, I have seen this movie once so far. Going tomorrow again. My first impression was disappointment, but I know it wont last. It will grow and grow on me and I will probably love it.
But here are my grievances for now:

- elves at helms deep (really pissed me off)
- faramir lusting the ring
- aragorn falling off cliff

the above are the major dislikes
other dislikes:

- ents disagreeing at first
- dwarf jokes
- arwen / elrond involvement (should have been left for ROTK)
- switching of scenes very quickly

dislike that noone has said so far
- maybe im wrong or slightly incorrect, but some of the order of the scenes were messed up.
first aragorn,gimli,and legolas game apon eomer and crew
then they found gandalf and went to Edoras
in the book, Eomer was imprisoned by wormtounge, but in the movie he was banished before he met a,g,and l.
if im not correct in the book, eomer rode to helms deep with theoden and didnt show up at the end to save the day...
that kinda pissed me off...


i believe that is accurate with the book

Come on! I can't believe you guys!

Everybody is trying to read (memorize) the book, and note all the plot discrepancies. This is not film criticism. Folks, a literal illustration of the book's exact plot would be a 30 hours boring ride, mostly suited to overgrown hippies, and mentally challenged D & D enthusiasts.

We should better ask for what purposes were these changes made? What do you prefer between cross-cutting the different story arcs, or staring a new movie right at the 1h30 mark? In my opinion, the latter idea would kill the film.

What struck me is how different this film felt from FOTR.

The look. I thought the colors in this one appeared to be washed out. FOTR was filled with bright colors. TTT looked drab and muddy, filled with greys and earthtones, whereas the Fellowship was green and bright. I realize that TTT is supposed to be a darker film, but the change was jarring, as this film picked up only moments after the Fellowship ended. (Of course, it could've just been the print I saw, too.)

The structure. It was, in many ways, jarring. FOTR was, for all intents and purposes, shown through the eyes of Frodo. TTT had the Fellowship broken into three factions and constantly switched between them. I would rather have had PJ follow the structure of the novels, by showing the Helm's Deep/Isengard and Frodo/Mordor parts in two seperate acts. Switching back and forth between the three different stories felt way too disjointed. I think it would've flowed better if we had two seperate one-after-the-other stories to follow.

I would've done it something like this: Film opens with Frodo and his dream. Cut to the Helm's Deep and Isengard stories. Have Ents at Helm's Deep. Keep Eomer's story the same (this worked well within the context of the movie). The Elves at HD could possibly go, but I think it was a good idea to give the Elves some presence in the movie. By having the Ents show up at Helm's Deep, it would've solidified the bond between the Merry/Pippin and Aragorn/Gandalf sides of the story. Then we get the Frodo/Sam/Gollum side of the story. And soften up Faramir. His arc, as presented in the film, wasn't really believable. He wants the ring, gets chewed out by Sam, and lets them go. Don't really buy it. This could've been handled much better.

Fellowship was a very focused, POINT-A to POINT-B type of narrative structure. TTT was very fragmented and went all over the map. I think holding closer to the book's structure would've made it flow better from Fellowship. Ironically, I didn't feel this way before actually seeing the movie, but the end result changed my mind.

I also thought the editing of the film left a lot to be desired. It felt like there was a lot of material cut out of the film, especially on the Helm's Deep/Rohan side. Eomer could've had a lot more to do, for one thing. Too many things felt either glossed over or extended too long. I didn't really mind the "Aragorn over the cliff" thing in and of itself, but I thought it wasted too much time that could've been used for other purposes.

Okay, Faramir does not lust after the ring in the movie. He's concerned that these people know of their secret hideout and doesn't want that information to get back to Mordor. His last line: "I think we both understand each other now" shows that he is honorable and trusts Frodo to his mission and information.

And as far has Helm's Deep ending abruptly - I'll bet a million bucks that ROTK starts with a flashback to the end of Helm's Deep with the Orcs being swalloed up by the forest - Just like the other film started with a "wham-bam" flashback scene, so will the next one, and that is the prime opportunity to show this.

I dont know about that slip.
He says in the movie, "the ring will go to Gondor"
he doesnt say Frodo will. He also says that he will bring his father a powerful gift. And we all know how corrupted Denethor got.

I agree things could be changed, but the major stuff shouldnt have been. It should have been kept true to the book. ELVES should not have been at Helms deep. Throughout the book it said the elves time was over. It's mans battle. And again Faramir should have been portrayed as honorable. He is highly respected by everyone in the book. The way he his conveyed in the movie makes everyone hate him. They are suppose to hate Denethor and love Faramir. This may have flawed him for the next movie.