LOTR plot question...
11-20-02, 08:49 AM
#1
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LOTR plot question...
I never read the books but enjoyed the movie. A coworker and i were discussing it and he brought up a possible plot error i couldnt figure out.
OK, the Dwarf said we should go through the mountain because my cousin is somebody important there and he'd treat us nice etc....
well when they got there the place was abandoned and looked like it had fallen at LEAST 10 years ago. How come the Dwarf didnt know this about his own cousin!? Are they not on good terms and hadnt talked in 10+ years?
OK, the Dwarf said we should go through the mountain because my cousin is somebody important there and he'd treat us nice etc....
well when they got there the place was abandoned and looked like it had fallen at LEAST 10 years ago. How come the Dwarf didnt know this about his own cousin!? Are they not on good terms and hadnt talked in 10+ years?
11-20-02, 09:38 AM
#4
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Dwarves are long-lived, and spend a lot of time underground mining and seeking riches. It's not unreasonalbe to assume that they wouldn't see each other for long stretches of time. They didn't exactly have telephones, fax machines, or e-mail. 
I think the Dwarves in Moria had been dead for longer than ten years, maybe twenty.
I think the Dwarves in Moria had been dead for longer than ten years, maybe twenty.
11-20-02, 09:56 AM
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I've read the books, but I can't remember any exact details. I could be wrong on this but what I seem to remember. The Mines of Moria we long abandoned. Then a group of Dwarves returned to see if they could make it back into what it once was. And the other dwarves never heard from them again, not knowing what happened for sure. I don't think in the book, Gimli was so excited to go into the mines. They probably added this. I don't think tho it is a plot error, as It could seem reasonable that they might no have talked in 10 or so years. Dwarves live to be very old so 10 years would not be long for them, and middle earth is very spread out and dangerous to travel in. So their would not me much communication coming back and forth. Like I said tho I cant remember for sure. I hope someone who has read the books several times would clear this up. As I am curious now.
11-20-02, 10:05 AM
#7
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Considering the way the dwarves were wiped out there you would think that it would cause quite a stir somehow. ESPECIALLY among relatives. Even if i dont keep in touch with my cousins, my mom and closer relatives do and tell me whats going on.
11-20-02, 10:05 AM
#8
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The name 'Moria' is often used as a synonym for Khazad-dûm. This is not strictly correct - 'Moria' was not used of the ancient Dwarf-city until after it was deserted by the Dwarves themselves - but by the late Third Age the two names had come to be used interchangeably.
Despite an ill-fated attempt to recolonise Moria by Balin in III 2989, Durin's Bane remained a dark and brooding menace in the ancient kingdom of the Dwarves, whose nature was hidden to the outside world. In January III 3019, the Company of the Ring travelled through Moria on the Quest of Mount Doom. In Gandalf, the Balrog finally encountered a being of the same order and power as itself. As the two Maiar faced each other on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm, Gandalf broke the Bridge and the Balrog fell into the depths, but Gandalf too was drawn into the abyss.
The date of Khazad-dûm's foundation is uncertain, but it probably predates the First Age.
Deserted in III 1981.
Briefly recolonised III 2989 - III 2994
The date of Khazad-dûm's foundation is uncertain, but it probably predates the First Age.
Deserted in III 1981.
Briefly recolonised III 2989 - III 2994
11-20-02, 10:14 AM
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save ferris ...
u have to remember the dwarves, elves and hobbits, along with most of the middle earth characters live much longer than the avarage human
to a dwarf 10 years ( though its not really stated how long) would not seem that long two someone who might live to be 500 yrs old
many people dont see their reletives more than once a year .... sometimes less than that. just imagine no phone, fax, or organized mail
u have to remember the dwarves, elves and hobbits, along with most of the middle earth characters live much longer than the avarage human
to a dwarf 10 years ( though its not really stated how long) would not seem that long two someone who might live to be 500 yrs old
many people dont see their reletives more than once a year .... sometimes less than that. just imagine no phone, fax, or organized mail
11-20-02, 10:33 AM
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Originally posted by Save Ferris
I guess in the movie they shouldnt of had him hype how great he knew it would be and how things were so palsy between him and his cousin.
I guess in the movie they shouldnt of had him hype how great he knew it would be and how things were so palsy between him and his cousin.
11-20-02, 10:53 AM
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I did not read any of these books, only the Hobbit, but I remember being told that the actual journey takes years. Gandalf the Gray was imprisoned for years by the White. The movie made it seem for days. I don't think time is a big concern in the movie, it distracts from the flow.
11-20-02, 10:54 AM
#13
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This whole thing bothered me as well. I didn't understand why the Dwarf character didn't know how to open the door to mines, or which way to even go. He made it quite clear that his cousin was this big guy and great the mines were.
It seems that this is an instance where Peter Jackson lost sight that not everyone seeing the movie will have read teh book.
It seems that this is an instance where Peter Jackson lost sight that not everyone seeing the movie will have read teh book.
11-20-02, 10:58 AM
#14
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actually in the book they had received info that things were going great in Moria. Then due to all the problems that were happening due to the rise of Sauron travel became dangerous. They had lost touch with the Dwarves in Moria however had assumed they were still doing fine. Gandalf assumed they were not due to his knowledge of what had happened in the past at Moria(the older Dwarves had delved too deeply and awoke the Balrog).
This is why he had not wanted to go into Moria. He did not tell everyone his thoughts since he had no real way of knowing for sure.
The movie added the dead bodies in the entry way. They did not see signs of death right away. the discovered the remains like in the movie in the room in the middle of Moria and read the book to find out what had happened.
This is why he had not wanted to go into Moria. He did not tell everyone his thoughts since he had no real way of knowing for sure.
The movie added the dead bodies in the entry way. They did not see signs of death right away. the discovered the remains like in the movie in the room in the middle of Moria and read the book to find out what had happened.
11-20-02, 11:01 AM
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Actually (recalling from memory now), "humans" (or men) of middle earth lives for like 200+ years... So dwarves and other races live even longer than that (except hobbits, 100 years are pretty long for a hobbit).
11-20-02, 11:07 AM
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Originally posted by pagansoul
I did not read any of these books, only the Hobbit, but I remember being told that the actual journey takes years. Gandalf the Gray was imprisoned for years by the White. The movie made it seem for days. I don't think time is a big concern in the movie, it distracts from the flow.
I did not read any of these books, only the Hobbit, but I remember being told that the actual journey takes years. Gandalf the Gray was imprisoned for years by the White. The movie made it seem for days. I don't think time is a big concern in the movie, it distracts from the flow.
11-20-02, 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by Lastblade
Actually (recalling from memory now), "humans" (or men) of middle earth lives for like 200+ years... So dwarves and other races live even longer than that (except hobbits, 100 years are pretty long for a hobbit).
Actually (recalling from memory now), "humans" (or men) of middle earth lives for like 200+ years... So dwarves and other races live even longer than that (except hobbits, 100 years are pretty long for a hobbit).
Aragon was desended from the Númenóreans, the descendants of the Edain of the First Age who were granted the land of Númenor. they lived longer than other men. As they intermarried with more normal stock of men the long lives became slowly shorter over time. basically Aragon was a throwback. He and his children would live longer since he had more pure blood and his marrying an elf kept his bloodline living longer.
In time even his bloodline would become mixed and they would live more normal lives.
11-20-02, 11:27 AM
#18
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Originally posted by Bandoman
Frodo waited 9 years after Bilbo went away to leave for Rivendell
Frodo waited 9 years after Bilbo went away to leave for Rivendell
11-20-02, 11:45 AM
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In the commentary track by PJ on the EE, he talkes about the time line in the book and how it differs from that of the movie. He wanted to make it seem like weeks or months that Bilbo left for RivenDell instead of the years. Also once Gandalf tells Frodo to leave the Shire, it takes another couple months, and they do it in a matter of couple of minutes. Also the amount of time they spend in both RevinDell and Luthlorian for much much greater than appeared. I believe in the book they spend months in book and it seems like just maybe a few daysin Revindell and maybe anight in Luthlorien in the movie. PJ said he really didnt know how to show the longer time and dint want to slow downthe pace of the movie anymore than he had to.
11-20-02, 12:03 PM
#21
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Yeah, seventeen years. Frodo was 33 years old on Bilbo's "eleventy-first" birthday. 33 is a the age of adulthood in Hobbits. So Frodo would've been fifty when he set out for Rivendell.
I really can't blame them for changing the timeline for the movie. It would've too difficult to keep explaining these things. Even title cards like "17 years later" or "6 months later" would get a little confusing after a while.
I really can't blame them for changing the timeline for the movie. It would've too difficult to keep explaining these things. Even title cards like "17 years later" or "6 months later" would get a little confusing after a while.
11-20-02, 12:09 PM
#22
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Originally posted by gcribbs
no normal men lived from 50-80 years like now.
Aragon was desended from the Númenóreans, the descendants of the Edain of the First Age who were granted the land of Númenor. they lived longer than other men. As they intermarried with more normal stock of men the long lives became slowly shorter over time. basically Aragon was a throwback. He and his children would live longer since he had more pure blood and his marrying an elf kept his bloodline living longer.
no normal men lived from 50-80 years like now.
Aragon was desended from the Númenóreans, the descendants of the Edain of the First Age who were granted the land of Númenor. they lived longer than other men. As they intermarried with more normal stock of men the long lives became slowly shorter over time. basically Aragon was a throwback. He and his children would live longer since he had more pure blood and his marrying an elf kept his bloodline living longer.
11-20-02, 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by Josh-da-man
In the novel, Aragorn was about seventy years old when the book started, and would've been about 87 when he met Frodo in Bree at the Prancing Pony.
In the novel, Aragorn was about seventy years old when the book started, and would've been about 87 when he met Frodo in Bree at the Prancing Pony.
