Out of curiousity, which films do you consider to be true film noir?

To make a list of films that I consider to be true film noir would take too long. If you are looking for recommendations, I could provide many, but i feel that you are instead asking for why I feel that no modern film can be considered a true film noir. Of course, I could be wrong.

As for my reasons, it really comes down to the debate over whether film noir should be considered a "genre" or a "movement" My problem with calling film noir a genre is it is too vague and, in most descriptions, deals only with crime movies and leaves out perfect examples of noir, such as "Sweet Smell Of Success" and "The Big Carnival" I side with the "noir as a movement" camp, a series of films connected by similar styles (odd, often low, angles, the use of light and, especially shadow, etc.) and themes (most notably alienation and obsession). Opinions vary on the length and time of the noir cycle, but it is generally considered as emerging in the late 30s/early 40s and ending before the 60's. (Some point to "Touch Of Evil" (1958) as being the last true film noir, although I think it's impossible to narrow it down to one film.)

My problem with labeling any modern film as "noir" is that (partly because of the vagueness of the term), any film with a crime element is immediately classified as film noir. (No offense to anyone, but I fail to see how "Seven" could possibly be considered film noir.) These movies may contain a femme fatale or a less-then prefect protagonist, but they do not contain the unifying elements (mentioned above) of the noir movement.

That is not to say that there aren't many modern films influenced by the noir movement. But an influence is not enough to make the movie a true film noir. If a film was released today with elements of German expressionism or Italian Neo-realism, they would not be considered a part of those movements. Neither should a crime movie be considered a film noir.

This is not an issue of me feeling that "older is better". The noir movement is over. Changes in the social and political landscape as well as filmmaking and technique helped to bring about the end of the noir cycle. There are some fine modern "noirish" films around, but they lack the elements that defined the movement.

Well, I hope that I have described my position in a way that is somewhat comprehensible. I apologize for the rambling nature of this post, and I do hope that it sparks some intelligent (flameless) discussion.

jim

Actually Jim, I really was just looking for some recommendations...I like a lot of the new stuff, but if actual film buffs don't really consider that film noir I'd really like to see a real film noir. I find the whole "genre" pretty interesting.

True film noir (though in theory, nothing can actually be true film noir - only exhibit many of the characteristics, but that's another topic) can be found in Double Indemnity, Out of the Past, and a few other films of the period. That's a pure as you can get. So if this is what you're looking for, definitely give those a good watching.

Best Laid Plans

A great one that unfortunately isn't on DVD (but shows on TV fairly regularly) is Leave Her To Heaven. Some might argue that it doesn't belong here because it was filmed in bright Technicolor, but the plot is pure noir, a bad-ass femme fatale leading a man to his doom.

As far as what's film noir and what isn't, my opinion is it's like pornography. I might not be able to define it, but I know it when I see it.

There may be a lot of truth to that. When people ask me to describe "film noir" to them, it is hard to describe. I've read that the term came about by the French to describe all of the Hollywood films that they missed during the Nazi occupation of France. So if one wants to consider true "film noir" to be just films made during that period that also contain many of the common elements (such as a femme fatale, flawed protagonist, themes of betrayal and alienation, striking use of light and shadow, etc...) that have become known as belonging to film noir, one could make the list of "true" film noir very short.
I don't consider the movement to be quite that narrowly defined (I do agree with Gamblor that is is more of a movement than a genre)....but a film noir HAS to be in B&W. Someone aboved mentioned not liking the term "neo-noir"...but I like it. It is a useful way of describing a film that follows similar themes of noir but outside of the movement, for films in color, etc....

JMLEWIS1,
for some suggestions, my favorite film noir are:
1. Kiss Me Deadly
2. Double Indemnity
3. Detour

all available on dvd, though DI went out-of-print with the rest of the Image/Universal titles....should be able to find a lot of remaining copies at B&Ms though....I have seen a lot at Borders, etc...

Both Detour and Double Indemnity are on Ebert's "The Great Movies" list (he adds one film to the list every two weeks): http://www.suntimes.com/ebert/greatmovies/

Here are links to the reviews: (although these reviews often have spoilers....so you may want to avoid them...or only read the beginning of them...or just read them after seeing the movie)
http://www.suntimes.com/ebert/greatmovies/detour.html
http://www.suntimes.com/ebert/greatm...indemnity.html

I especially love what he says about Detour:

I have always felt that arguing semantics for whether "film noir" is a movement or a genre to be a bit futile. While I'm in complete agreement with Gamblor187's definition of what truly constitues "film noir", delineating a rigid and jealously-guarded classification of the term has simply never been a pressing concern of mine. Much as many struggle, with variable success, to segregate such cross-genre films, such as To Be or Not to Be or The Apartment or The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, into pigeonholes labeled "comedy" or "drama" or "western", such a practice too often tends to limit our appreciation of a film. Sweet Smell of Success, for instance, is a masterful dissection of alienation, obsession, and personal corruption; but as it lacks the crime element which many of the so-called "cultists" demand, it is shunned the attention it truly deserves. Nomination of Touch of Evil, however, which, although infused with the same fatalistic themes found in "film noir", is immensely more baroque than any other specimen of noir; and practically begs the inclusion of Citizen Kane likewise as "film noir" (as some recent scholars have argued).

In sum, let's just say that I agree with garmonbozia's post. "Film noir" is more movement than genre.

When I wrote this post I was debating whether to put the word "noir" in the title. I knew some people would consider film noir to be the black and white 40's & 50's movies. I'm a big fan of these movies and was looking for some recommendations on modern movies with the noir element, which I think Basic Instinct and L.A. Confidential does have.

I do agree with some that Seven and PI are not considered "film noir".

It's nice to see that this post became a nice little conversation about noir.

Originally posted by Gamblor187:
a series of films connected by similar styles (odd, often low, angles, the use of light and, especially shadow, etc.) and themes (most notably alienation and obsession)...No offense to anyone, but I fail to see how "Seven" could possibly be considered film noir.

Originally posted by Collin:
I do agree with some that Seven...[is] not considered "film noir".

In the interest of playing devil's advocate and engaging in some of that "intelligent discussion" Gamblor187 would like to see, I'm curious why SE7EN wouldn't qualify as a film noir (or neo-noir, whichever term you prefer), considering the qualities I've highlighted above, both of which are highly evident in SE7EN. Additionally, the film deals with dark, seedy subject matter and features not just one but two flawed lead characters, both of which are often considered film noir staples. For my money, SE7EN is just about as close as I've ever seen a full-color film get to capturing the dankness, dread and hopelessness for which film noir is famous...

Personally, Se7en would never be on my list of neo-noir films (nor Pi for that matter). I think the most obvious evidence for this, besides the fact that it just does not have the feel of a noir (I don't know how to define this, it just is), is the lack of a femme fatale. It would be impossible to argue that Paltrow plays that part, and I can think of no real film noir, nor any that come close, that does not involve a femme fatale.

You mean SE7EN features nearly all the qualifiers except one, and that throws it out the window as a candidate?! Okay, I'll give you that maybe SE7EN doesn't qualify as a strict film noir because it's in color, but I refuse to see how SE7EN can't be seen as a neo-noir simply because it's missing a femme fatale. As far as SE7EN not feeling like a noir film, as I indicated above, it would be impossible for me to disagree with you more than I do...

Personally, I never considered Se7en to be a neo-noir either. The first time I heard someone call it a "neo-noir" I did a double take and had to think about how it could be considered such. I don't have a problem with people considering it as such, but it is just not very apparent to me besides the dark photography. I saw the film more as a dark crime thriller....more of the serial killer genre. Sure, the two leads could very well be placed in the context of a noir film and not seem out of place....but there is just something not present in Se7en for me to think it is noir.

Just curious about something for those noir fans who have seen more noir than I probably have...What percentage of films regularly considered "film noir" have voice-over? It is another aspect often found in these films that hasn't been mentioned yet in this post...and I was just wondering if it was a majority, about half, or even less?

What's everyones take on Reindeer Games?

I would consider it more of a noir type than Seven.

Man, am I just one out-voted sun-o*******un or what?

Oh well, I still think SE7EN's a neo-noir so nanny-nanny-boo-boo, stick your head in doo-doo!

(And the award for forum maturity goes to...)

Just a couple brief comments. I will elaborate on all of these soon...sometime when I am not suffering from an intense migraine.

First off, I would like to apologize to all (especially JMLEWIS) if my last post came off as a bit confrontational. That was not my intention. I blame sleep deprivation, work-related stress, and the fact that I have had this (often frustrating) debate before, including an argument with someone on this forum and a heated debate with a friend/ fellow film nerd just the other night. (I don't think that my sorta-girlfriend realized what a film nerd I was until I tried to explain the film noir as movement vs. film noir as a genre debate last night.)

JMLEWIS....

A large list of recommendations is forthcoming. When I first met my "noir goal" of 100 in under a year, I celebrated with a detailed post in the Other forum. This would have been a good guide, but it appears to have been lost during the software changes. I will try to limit myself to the best of the best and the lesser known great films of the movement.

Filmmaker....

I also apologize if my request for "intelligent conversation" and singling out your recommendation of "Seven" came off as rude or condescending. Hopefully, I will get around to my reasons, but they have pretty much been covered by garmonbozia. (Although the femme fetale is common in film noir, I do not feel that it is a neccessary element.)

garmonbozia....
Voice-over is another element that also shows up in film noir, but it's kind of a cliche and I don't feel that it's used as often as most would believe....definitely under half.

Collin....
Well, "Seven" is a good movie, while "Reindeer Games" is a very, very bad one.

Seriously, I would consider it more of a (shudder) neo-noir than "Seven".

Also, I just once again want to stress that my main problem with the term neo-noir is that it is such a broad term....even broader than film noir. It seems to be used for any modern movie that has a crime element.

jim

Originally posted by Gamblor187:
Filmmaker....

I also apologize if my request for "intelligent conversation" and singling out your recommendation of "Seven" came off as rude or condescending.

It did not, so rest easy; however, I must profess that I'm more than a little taken aback by the fact that so many others here agree with your assessment of SE7EN. Alas, it appears we have yet another example of irritating variances in perception...

just to add my two cents on the Seven disagreement...i would say it is much more of a horror/thriller than a noir. but, to each their own.

I"m amazed that no one has mentioned "Romeo is Bleeding" yet, which is one of the great modern film noirs.

Lena Olin may be the most deranged spider woman character ever!

I'm late in joining this conversation, but I want to throw in the ring what I've always thought to be film noir.

Film noir, coined by the French, literally translates to black film. Dark in both composition and themes. Required elements included the following:

1) Overall dark compositions, heavy use of shadows, which forces the composition of the shot to overcompromise the presence of the actual actors

2) Use of low or tilted angles to imply ominous or menacing situations, in order to disorient the viewer and give the audience the same feeling of uneasiness or alienation a character may have

3) A protagonist, usually antisocial, who has a fatal character flaw that ultimately leads to his downfall (greed, lust, alcoholism etc.)

I really think it's that rigid. All examples of film noir must have the above elements in common.

I think the films in the 40's and 50's like The Third Man and Double Indemnity that spawned the film noir movement essentially created its own new genre. So it's both. More recent movies like Blood Simple and The Last Seduction contain the above prerequisites to be labelled film noir and could not exist without that inspiring movement that took place 50 years ago.

I forgot to add a couple thoughts. If film noir is actually a genre bounded by prerequisites, the problem is that it can cross over to other genres. Dark City is a an example of film noir that crosses over to the sci-fi genre.

And for the record, I think Se7en is an example of modern film noir. It's physically dark, Paltrow is alienated in the big city, and Pitt is blinded by his invulnerable machismo which leads to his downfall.

Originally posted by rabbit77:
And for the record, I think Se7en is an example of modern film noir. It's physically dark, Paltrow is alienated in the big city, and Pitt is blinded by his invulnerable machismo which leads to his downfall.

Yeah, right along my lines of thinking. After I read your "requirements" for a film being considered noir, it (again) confirmed for me that SE7EN fits in fine form. Good to know I've got some back-up...

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is a film-noir, beleive it or not.

The Element of Crime