Mutley Hyde

Getting back on track; terrorist scum deserve to die. We may better ourselves by understanding them and their motives, but in the end, they still deserve to be killed. Dead. No more life for them. Muerte. Bye-bye.

OldDude

Agreed. Hopefully we can retain our disgust at having to kill them, as we recognize the need to kill them. That is the difference that separates us.

eXcentris

I agree. I guess my point is that there might be less of them to kill if you understand and try to prevent the conditions under which they thrive. And Russia created a monster in Chechenya which allowed Islamic fundamentalist terrorists to flourish. There are lessons to be learned from that as well.

If I have a rat problem in my house I'm not going to be content with just blasting them as they show up. At some point I'm going to go outside and try to figure out where they come from and why I have a rat problem in the first place.

Mutley Hyde

Well, rats simply breed, that's why they exist. Now, why they're in your house is another story. They're there because you left the trash in or near the house too damned long. So take out the trash more often, put rat poison all around the house for the long term solution, and get a few toms to hunt down and kill the few who are presently active for the immediate term.

i.e, let's apply this to Israel; kick out the Palestinians, finish building the wall, and maintain your military and order them to kill militants on sight. Oopah!

VinVega

eX, maybe some of us have looked at numerous terrorist incidents and have thought about them. Perhaps some of us have come to a conclusion concerning terrorist actions that deliberately target innocent men women and now children. Just because I hate them, doesn't mean I don't think about what they want, what they are fighting for and who they are. I don't usually get into the fire and brimstone speeches where I call them evil incarnate or stuff like that, but these folks who do stuff like the school massacre must be destroyed. They can't be bargained with, because A) they have no real demands and just want a lot of media attention focused on them when they slay the civilians, or B) their demands are simply not something that their enemy can give, such as pulling out of an entire region, or freeing mass murderers. This combined with their choice of actions (terrorism) to gain what they want is unacceptable and that choice of action alone is like a light switch when you think about rational consideration of their situation. You can't "work with" terrorists, simply because of their methods, and they may have some legit. gripes, BUT by working with them, you have encouraged them to continue their methods and have consequently put more innocents in harms way.

I'm just curious what you would like me to consider when I make damning statements about terrorists? What should I be thinking about? Because I know it bothers you or annoys you when lots of folks come out cheering for the heads of the terrorists or condemning them. I guess I'm a little confused. Thanks.

VinVega

I think the best way to prevent a lot of the problems we're having in the Middle East would be to completely pull out of that region. The Islamists want that and I think a heck of a lot of Westerners want that too. There's just this little problem of energy, we can't afford to. I really wish we (at least in the US) were energy independent, we wouldn't have half the problems if we just pulled out and let them kill each other like they have for a thousand years. At least our troops wouldn't be in the middle of it. Until that day of energy independence comes, we'll be up to our neck in Mid East conflicts. We are the cause of a lot of their problems, simply because we are there. That's pretty simplistic, but more or less why they are fighting us. The irony of it is, our oil money helps fund their terrorism against us.

bhk

We should try to understand why the Nazi's hated the Jews or the KKK hates non-whites, or what those people did in the Sudan who are being slaughtered to be so hated.

Myster X

give the UN 20 years and you'll have the answer

raven56706

Did anyone see the video of the inside of the school during the whole ordeal.... according to cnn, it was shown on russian tv.

eXcentris

That doesn't bother me. What bothers me is arguments, such as the one used in that article, which state that if you try to understand (motives/historical/social aspects) you are trying to condone/justify/defend terrorists, or that you don't have the balls to face the horror and are using thinking as a diversion. That's just silly.

When I pointed out why a lot of Chechen terrorists are women, I immediately got drowned by the "don't think, just condemn the bastards and shut up" crowd. And that irks me to no end.

eXcentris

And it's kind of ironic that the people who argue that we should be cold blooded bastards when dealing with terrorists seem to be the ones who can't look at some of these terrorist acts coldly and are the ones who bring out the "who cares why they did it, they kill women and children!" line of reasoning and are too emotionally involved to be able to look past the horror.

pum

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

click the video link.

mrpayroll

Wow! These cowards won't even show their faces for their cause.

Chris

DVD Polizei

VinVega,

Well, I think if we did completely pull out of the Middle East, it wouldn't stop US attacks in the future. However, it would save the lives of soldiers in the short-term.

DVD Polizei

Taken from Pravda.ru

"You have kids too, talk to your friends, have mercy on children!" Rakiat Kodzoyev said in an address to her husband, who was a terrorist in the group, which seized the school in Beslan, southern Russia. The tape with the address was handed over to the terrorists. Iznaur Kodzoyev, Rakiat's husband, was killed in several hours after the militants saw the tape. The idea with a video tape appeared at a moment, when special services believed negotiations with the militants had reached a deadlock.

The Russian special services managed to identify one of the terrorists during the crisis. Police officers visited the Kodzoyevs and taped the address of his wife. Rakiat Kodzoyev asked her husband to think about five children of his own before harming others. The tape showed the footage of Kodzoyev's five children asleep.

The tape was broadcast yesterday on the German TV channel RTL within the scope of the program Spiegel TV, prepared by Spiegel magazine. "The tape was made in an attempt to start negotiations to free hostages without any victims," a spokesman for the program said.

According to Spiegel TV, Russian law-enforcement agencies nabbed three other terrorists, who stayed alive. Vladimir Khodov, known as Abdullah, is among them. This terrorist has been on wanted list for other terrorist acts he committed in the past. Other reports say that Khodov was not in the terrorist group that attacked the school in Beslan, but was attracted for negotiations along with Shamil Basayev's man, Magomet Yevloyev (a national of Ingushetia) and one of Basayev's bodyguards of the Russian origin (the name of the latter is not known yet).

The fact of the video proves the intention of special services to negotiate with the terrorists. However, the Russian special services knew that Rakiat Kodzoyev was the wife of one of the terrorists, who had seized the school. Furthermore, other terrorists' relatives have been supposedly found too. It is another confirmation to the version about an accomplice of the terrorists in the town and about the links the local government had with the militants. "

----

chanster

How is it ironic? I am not advocating killing their children. There is a difference about hunting down these animals and killing their children.

DVD Polizei

Shooting a child point-blank in the head, is different than shooting a terrorist who hides behind a child and the child gets killed in the process.

Some may not agree with me, but I do think there is a difference.

Pelayu

Well, the reporters that were near the school at that moment along with Ruslan Aushev, ex-president of Ingushetia, say that previous to the bomb explosion there was some shooting. Only after that, one of the bombs exploded and hostages rushed from the gym. Terrorists opened fire both on them and on four rescuers from the Ministry of Emergency that were approaching the school at that moment to take bodies of killed men (they were some adults and senior students ). Aushev called up one of the terrorists inside and asked him to stop shooting. He just answered Aushev "We did cease fire, it is yours that didn't". But neither troops nor Alfa and Vimpel were shooting (the latter simply weren't there!). Who was shooting? The so called militia (fathers and relatives of hostages) are supposed to have been shooting. Then he went on"it is all over now, we gonna blow this thing up". Only after that the troops were given the command to storm the building. FSB Special Forces (Alfa and Vimpel) were hiding far away from the perimeter. If one can believe the words of a FSB official, there was absolutely no plan, the storm was spontaneous and there was not a single Alfa or Vimplel member involved during the first 15 minutes . Both commandos are reported to have lost 10 men killed, it is the largest death toll in their history! When they at last entered the building, they began rescuing children instead of clearing the building (not all of them of course). What was it? A command? One of the commandos killed first was a man carrying two little girls out of the school building. He was shot right in the neck by a sniper.

So, yes, it is a big and serious failure. But nonetheless I'm sure one can't judge the efficiency of Russian Special Forces by that great collapse . The whole mess was handled by higher governing bodies (you name them). Guys simply weren't given a command, they weren't given an opportunity to make their job properly.
Just remember the Dubrovka theater storm. If we consider a failure every assault with casualities, then there will be failures all over. But still I think we cannot compare these two cases from the very beginning.
1. Location differences. Moscow is not Beslan. A surrounded terrorist has absolutely no chance to flee. That is, Dubrovka terrorists, at the moment of taking over the building, were completely and definitely ready to die (well, they're all ready to die, but still...) Beslan is North Caucasus, and if you shave your beard off, be you Arab or Chechen, you can merge into the crowd without any problem letting alone that Beslan is still highlands with everything that it may imply.
2. Building construction differences. There are some considerable differences in the building structures of both Dubrovka theater in Moscow and Beslan school building. Once you're inside a theater, there is no chance to escape but through 2 or 3 exits. Beslan school is a "lighter" building.
Considering all the gravity of Dubrovka situation and knowing beforehand that there will be absolutely no concession, Alfa by itself did a great job. No bomb detonated (and now we know that they can detonate), all terrorists dead, not a single hostage wounded by a bullet during the assault. Nobody had a clue of what type of gas was used. It was a total surprise. Foreign intelligence services were knocked out. A commando member with an Alfa badge on his arm cannot be blamed for the sluggishness of his government. If there was a lack of transport, particularly, ambulances, who is to blame?

P.S. I may be missing something, but what does "invade Chechnya" really mean? If you had, say, some serious terrorist conglomerations somewhere in Texas, could you "invade" Texas?

Pelayu

Huh? I don't even have a fuckin' gun

Pelayu

Pharoh, my friend, I'll answer you later...Now it's showtime..err bedtime!

VinVega

That's certainly a topic for debate. I have my opinion on it, but it's not set in stone. I do think energy independence would be a HUGE factor in hurting the funding of terrorists. With the intense spread of Islam all over the world right now, there will still be substantial support from the Islamic community for the terror. The donations will come in 10's and 100's of dollars, not the thousands and 10's of thousands they now come from wealthy benefactors from the oil nations. I think it was a Saudi prince or oil man who said, "My grandfather rode a camel, I drive a Mercedes, and my grandchildren will once again drive a camel." or something to that effect. I'm just looking to get those terror funding bastards back on the camel a lot faster. You can't fund terror with a pocket full of sand as you can with a pocket full of oil-made dollar bills.

Pharoh

Small update:

Basayev has denied any role in the attack, which many analysts find out of character, if he indeed was responsible.

However, based on some the codenames supposedly given out by the attackers, Basayev is clearly the culprit.

The bigger speculation now is that no Arabs were involved in the attacks.

Myster X

One week later, not even a single Arab leader goes on camera and denounce this. Funny how trigger happy they are when lashing out at the US for the Abul Ghraib prison abuse.

Mutley Hyde

Actually, Mr. X, I posted an article the day after the tragedy which reported several instances of Arab condemnation of the incident. These weren't just a few clerics in the street, these were journalists in their papers even.

mrpayroll

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ssia_school_dc

Children Return to Beslan Schools After Siege

1 hour, 57 minutes ago

BESLAN, Russia (Reuters) - Children clutching their mothers' hands, some with tears in their eyes, returned to schools in Beslan amid heavy security Wednesday, two weeks after a hostage massacre at a school in the town.

Sniffer dogs and bomb experts scoured the schools before they were reopened, but the efforts failed to reassure the more than three-quarters of students who stayed away.

Those who turned up said they were nervous, but determined to forge ahead after a two-day siege by Chechen rebels at school No. 1 ended with the deaths of more than 320 hostages -- half of them children. Hundreds more were injured.

"I don't want to surrender to my mood," said Svetlana Zukurova, one of many mothers sitting in class alongside their children.

"I don't want my child to develop fear of life's difficulties, fear of the terrible disaster which has united us all. Let our children learn and become kind people, who can be forgiving and compassionate."

Beslan's six remaining schools were under armed guard, but security fears and shock kept most pupils away. At school No. 2, only 10 percent of 900 students turned up, and at school No. 6 around 20 percent showed up.

"We came to school today to learn, and we will study well," said first-year pupil Murat Pliyev. One of his fellow newcomers was sobbing.

The day began with a minute of silence and lessons remembering those who died. After classes, older children were taken to what remained of school No. 1, where they laid flowers and paid their respects.

Teachers told their charges the learning process would continue as normal but everyone should be on their guard.

"Even if nothing happens ... we will live with our fear, we will be vigilant," headmistress Valentina Gokinayeva told her pupils. "We will know that at any moment we will have to be prepared to defend ourselves and our loved ones."

Older pupils found an addition to their regular timetables of mathematics, history and geography -- safety lessons.

"Now this lesson will be one of the most important on the school program, because in the lessons they will learn how to survive in any extreme situation," said teacher Viktor Mikhailov, quoted by Itar-Tass news agency.

Those who survived the siege will receive counseling before eventually returning to study in other schools. Some have been sent to recuperate in Russia's Black Sea resorts.



Seems a little early to me!

Chris