Hundreds Held Hostage in Russia School
09-05-04, 11:15 PM
#376
DVD Talk Hero
Well what was Putin's comment? That they got attacked because Russia is now weak since the Soviet Union was broken up. He's certainly suggesting a new geo-political structure.
09-05-04, 11:17 PM
#377
Suspended; also need updated email
ok well over 300 dead
I am going to be openly Critical of the Russian Soldiers
I don't care what circumstances, that many dead is a total failure
If the best US counter terrorism/Swat/Seal super duper force handled this exact same situation, what do you think the casualties would have been ?
I reckon around 100
I am going to be openly Critical of the Russian Soldiers
I don't care what circumstances, that many dead is a total failure
If the best US counter terrorism/Swat/Seal super duper force handled this exact same situation, what do you think the casualties would have been ?
I reckon around 100
09-06-04, 12:19 AM
#379
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by Original Desmond
ok well over 300 dead
I am going to be openly Critical of the Russian Soldiers
I don't care what circumstances, that many dead is a total failure
If the best US counter terrorism/Swat/Seal super duper force handled this exact same situation, what do you think the casualties would have been ?
I reckon around 100
ok well over 300 dead
I am going to be openly Critical of the Russian Soldiers
I don't care what circumstances, that many dead is a total failure
If the best US counter terrorism/Swat/Seal super duper force handled this exact same situation, what do you think the casualties would have been ?
I reckon around 100
The people who died were killed by terrorists- ome were executed while still in the building, and some were shot whil trying to escape. I'm sure some died from other problems (i read that there were some diabetic patients without food or water there).
However, the chaos that ensued when locals got involved probably cost lives.
09-06-04, 01:53 AM
#380
I think most hostages were dead before Russian forces even began to enter the building.
Original Desmond, the hostages actually tripped the mines and explosives as they escaped.
The terrorists may have thought Russian forces were coming IN the building and just began killing everyone and detonating themselves, not realizing the hostages were getting OUT.
Soon after, hostages were in fact shot and killed while trying to escape and then Russian forces moved-in.
Original Desmond, the hostages actually tripped the mines and explosives as they escaped.
The terrorists may have thought Russian forces were coming IN the building and just began killing everyone and detonating themselves, not realizing the hostages were getting OUT.
Soon after, hostages were in fact shot and killed while trying to escape and then Russian forces moved-in.
09-06-04, 05:07 AM
#381
DVD Talk Hero
Originally posted by Cool Kitten
no, they're worse
The closer you get to the South part of Russia , the more prone to violence and intolerance the cultures become.
no, they're worse
The closer you get to the South part of Russia , the more prone to violence and intolerance the cultures become.
09-06-04, 05:27 AM
#382
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With children myself, I've only skimmed through a handful of the messages here, the story itself is incomprehensible and deeply heartbreaking to anyone like myself.
In the defense of Russians, the super-hero American "we could have done it better" response I've read in this thread sounds completely idiotic to me, the same type of outcome Bush has counted on in the catastrophe in Iraq.
This was a complete lose-lose situation for everyone involved.
To distance myself from being anti-Bush, let me say that the inaction of pre-war France, and terrorism-influenced post-war Spain and the Phillipines have directly made these situations inevitable and unavoidable. Let's expect these situations to not be unimaginable in the near future. I also would like to note of the coddling of terrorists by French politicians of reminding evil men with threat of murder that they did not support the attack on Iraq (while ignoring that this extremism that the US is fighting exists outside of this knowledge)
NOTE that France has learned its own lesson recently, that being cowardly does not escape extremism. Would the US, take the bitch role that France does, should we remind with the next US civilian kidnapped, that the US does not ban the headwraps of Muslim women in school?
I'm in the middle here, anti-Bush and anti-leftist Europe. There's a middle ground to politics, which have been made extreme by Bush and Western Europe TOGETHER. Let's not place all the blame on Bush, I lived and worked throughout Western Europe, anti-Americanism was at its boiling point just as Bush came into office. The Anti-Bush, anti-Americanism of Europe has only boosted Bush's chances for re-election.
Michael Moore, a pariah now in discussion of politics, has given fuel to the anti-American fire in Europe. Really this film should have been for Americans and only Americans. We do take American criticism of Americans better from ourselves than anyone else, and after living in Europe this is well-justified. Europe cannot be trusted. France is the proverbial wolf in sheeps-clothing... Europe (especially France) tries to paint itself as pacifist, philanthropic as the representative of the real nature of humanity when they are just as evil, just as money-hungry, power-hungry...completely jealous of the power that the US wields.
But am I the minority of those who haven't chosen sides (Bush or Kerry) ?
Although I must admit Kerry is about a deadlock for me, as he is the 'lesser of two evils'. Bush, to me, does do more harm than good.
In the defense of Russians, the super-hero American "we could have done it better" response I've read in this thread sounds completely idiotic to me, the same type of outcome Bush has counted on in the catastrophe in Iraq.
This was a complete lose-lose situation for everyone involved.
To distance myself from being anti-Bush, let me say that the inaction of pre-war France, and terrorism-influenced post-war Spain and the Phillipines have directly made these situations inevitable and unavoidable. Let's expect these situations to not be unimaginable in the near future. I also would like to note of the coddling of terrorists by French politicians of reminding evil men with threat of murder that they did not support the attack on Iraq (while ignoring that this extremism that the US is fighting exists outside of this knowledge)
NOTE that France has learned its own lesson recently, that being cowardly does not escape extremism. Would the US, take the bitch role that France does, should we remind with the next US civilian kidnapped, that the US does not ban the headwraps of Muslim women in school?
I'm in the middle here, anti-Bush and anti-leftist Europe. There's a middle ground to politics, which have been made extreme by Bush and Western Europe TOGETHER. Let's not place all the blame on Bush, I lived and worked throughout Western Europe, anti-Americanism was at its boiling point just as Bush came into office. The Anti-Bush, anti-Americanism of Europe has only boosted Bush's chances for re-election.
Michael Moore, a pariah now in discussion of politics, has given fuel to the anti-American fire in Europe. Really this film should have been for Americans and only Americans. We do take American criticism of Americans better from ourselves than anyone else, and after living in Europe this is well-justified. Europe cannot be trusted. France is the proverbial wolf in sheeps-clothing... Europe (especially France) tries to paint itself as pacifist, philanthropic as the representative of the real nature of humanity when they are just as evil, just as money-hungry, power-hungry...completely jealous of the power that the US wields.
But am I the minority of those who haven't chosen sides (Bush or Kerry) ?
Although I must admit Kerry is about a deadlock for me, as he is the 'lesser of two evils'. Bush, to me, does do more harm than good.
09-06-04, 09:05 AM
#384
Moderator
jarsim,
This post is completely out of place and inappropriate. Nobody is politicizing this issue, nor should you. Doing so minimises the loss suffered by hundreds of innocents. American's choices for President have no place here.
Nor is anybody talking about America as superheroes. The only poster that even mentioned America doing better isn't even an American, but rather an Australian who is very critical of the current administration.
Now if you are arguing that Russia themselves did or didn't make mistakes that led to unnecessary loss of life, and wish to debate that point, fine. Of course, that view runs contrary to almost everything that everybody involved in Russia is saying, but it is your choice.
Regardless, please refrain from posting about US-European relations, or the US Presidential elections here. There are already far too many thread for those topics.
On topic:
Many of the dead have now been buried, as mass funerals are taking place. Included in those laid to rest, are two rescue workers who rushed into the school in an attempt to save the lives of the children while being constantly shot at. They are true Ossetian heroes. No, they are simply heroes.
This post is completely out of place and inappropriate. Nobody is politicizing this issue, nor should you. Doing so minimises the loss suffered by hundreds of innocents. American's choices for President have no place here.
Nor is anybody talking about America as superheroes. The only poster that even mentioned America doing better isn't even an American, but rather an Australian who is very critical of the current administration.
Now if you are arguing that Russia themselves did or didn't make mistakes that led to unnecessary loss of life, and wish to debate that point, fine. Of course, that view runs contrary to almost everything that everybody involved in Russia is saying, but it is your choice.
Regardless, please refrain from posting about US-European relations, or the US Presidential elections here. There are already far too many thread for those topics.
On topic:
Many of the dead have now been buried, as mass funerals are taking place. Included in those laid to rest, are two rescue workers who rushed into the school in an attempt to save the lives of the children while being constantly shot at. They are true Ossetian heroes. No, they are simply heroes.
09-06-04, 09:07 AM
#385
Originally posted by Original Desmond
ok well over 300 dead
I am going to be openly Critical of the Russian Soldiers
I don't care what circumstances, that many dead is a total failure
If the best US counter terrorism/Swat/Seal super duper force handled this exact same situation, what do you think the casualties would have been ?
I reckon around 100
ok well over 300 dead
I am going to be openly Critical of the Russian Soldiers
I don't care what circumstances, that many dead is a total failure
If the best US counter terrorism/Swat/Seal super duper force handled this exact same situation, what do you think the casualties would have been ?
I reckon around 100
Now, it might be fair to say they should have an assault plan ready to be triggered by any outbreak of violence. That might be fair, but the outcome would not be as good as coordinated assault that takes enemy by surprise, since the enemy has started the violence.
09-06-04, 09:10 AM
#386
Moderator
The Russian Prosecutor General Office has claimed they are certain that some of the murderers also participated in the June Ingushetia raids, and are concretely linked to Basayev. This has been reported upon in here, but now confirmation is starting to come out.
Relatedly, someones asked if invading Chechnya again would do anything. I don't think so, but I sure as hell know that killing the bastard basayev will do something. He needs to die.
Relatedly, someones asked if invading Chechnya again would do anything. I don't think so, but I sure as hell know that killing the bastard basayev will do something. He needs to die.
09-06-04, 09:11 AM
#387
DVD Talk Hero
If the bombs in the gym went off and the roof fell (before Russian troops entered the building) and killed about 200 people right there, are people still holding these deaths against "Russian incompetence?"
I don't think it was handled entirely the way it should have been. But the people responsible for this aren't the Russians, nor would I have expected them to do better. Given the number of people we now know were held, the threats that were made, and the conditions inside, I would have predicted far more deaths.
What sucks is that even one of these people dieing in such a situation would have felt tragic. More than 300 is just hard to comprehend.
I don't think it was handled entirely the way it should have been. But the people responsible for this aren't the Russians, nor would I have expected them to do better. Given the number of people we now know were held, the threats that were made, and the conditions inside, I would have predicted far more deaths.
What sucks is that even one of these people dieing in such a situation would have felt tragic. More than 300 is just hard to comprehend.
09-06-04, 01:03 PM
#388
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http://www.local6.com/news/3709008/d...009062004&ts=H
Russia Mourns Victims Of School Massacre
POSTED: 11:08 am EDT September 6, 2004
UPDATED: 11:16 am EDT September 6, 2004
BESLAN, Russia -- Russians stunned by last week's school hostage siege observed a national day of mourning Monday for the more than 350 people killed.
AP Image
Interior of classroom at school after siege in Russia.
In Beslan, townspeople crowded around the coffins of the victims -- many of them children.
Some 120 burials are scheduled Monday in the town cemetery and adjoining fields.
At the school where the victims died, people lit candles and created shrines with children's notebooks, shoes, and bottles of water -- symbolizing the water hostages were denied during the siege.
There was mounting criticism of the government's handling of the hostage-taking.
Some commentators said officials underestimated the magnitude of the crisis. But they stopped short of blaming Russian President Vladimir Putin.
On Saturday, Putin criticized Russia's law enforcement agencies for failing to rise to the challenge of terrorism.
Chris
Russia Mourns Victims Of School Massacre
POSTED: 11:08 am EDT September 6, 2004
UPDATED: 11:16 am EDT September 6, 2004
BESLAN, Russia -- Russians stunned by last week's school hostage siege observed a national day of mourning Monday for the more than 350 people killed.
AP Image
Interior of classroom at school after siege in Russia.
In Beslan, townspeople crowded around the coffins of the victims -- many of them children.
Some 120 burials are scheduled Monday in the town cemetery and adjoining fields.
At the school where the victims died, people lit candles and created shrines with children's notebooks, shoes, and bottles of water -- symbolizing the water hostages were denied during the siege.
There was mounting criticism of the government's handling of the hostage-taking.
Some commentators said officials underestimated the magnitude of the crisis. But they stopped short of blaming Russian President Vladimir Putin.
On Saturday, Putin criticized Russia's law enforcement agencies for failing to rise to the challenge of terrorism.
Chris
09-06-04, 03:19 PM
#389
This is taken from Pravda.ru today:
"What needs to be changed in the work of special services
Russian special services ought to learn certain lessons from the tragedy in Beslan. Some of the lessons appear quite obvious already. Not only should the FSB staff and members of the Ministry of Internal Affairs be aware of them, but common Russian citizens have to be informed as well.
Lesson N1. Militants have to used intelligently
Russian official law enforcement structures came face to face with something rather unusual while in Beslan. Men, whose children and relatives had been kept hostage inside the building, picked up guns in order to prevent the rebels from escaping. According to some sources however, those armed civilians had been actually preparing to storm the school building. Most likely, as soon as two bombs had exploded, they were the first ones to approach the building to cover up the children who were running away from school. Special services men had to chase after the armed civilians. They"ve lost their main advantage: suddenness. They failed to act at the speed of light. So basically, the so-called militiamen had hindered the work of the real professionals.
Since no one can guarantee at this point that there will be no new hostages capturing situations in North Caucasus, it would probably be good to think about how such spontaneous actions could be used.
-It was impossible to disarm those civilians; it could have lead to typical street fight between militia and civilians, -states one of the FSB officials in Beslan, - those armed civilians could have been used intelligently. For instance, they could have been for cordoning off the crowed from the epicenter as well as preventing the rebels from fleeing. Obviously, they had to have a specially appointed commander to keep everything under control.
One should also think about military insignia to enable special service members distinguish ordinary civilians from armed bandits.
Lesson N2. Field hospitals beat Ambulances
Military operation at the Theater center on Dubrovka (Moscow) gave rise to an interesting discussion on the pages of the Russian newspaper "Izvestia." The main argument concerned the following fact: whether the victims should have been transported to hospitals or helped right there in field hospitals. Those in support of the evacuation used to say that there was no need for field hospitals in the downtown Moscow. According to them, the victims had been provided with professional medical assistance in hospitals.
Those who are in support of field hospitals are military doctors in most cases. Judging by their experience, precious time had been lost during the evacuation. Ambulances, in their opinion, mainly functioned as taxis that simply transported people to the local hospitals.
Storm of the school in Beslan was indeed spontaneous. There was drastic shortage of Ambulances and people had to be transported to clinics in ordinary autos. However, many children were treated right on spot in field hospital arranged by the Ministry of Emergency Situations of the Russian Federation. It was only after people received first aid in those field hospitals were they transported to a regular hospital.
Most likely, doctors of those field hospitals had saved lives to several dozen people. Thus, the events in Beslan have clearly demonstrated that field hospitals are tremendously important and they ought to be used at all times when dealing with high numbers of victims.
Lesson N3. Avoid being taken hostage
This particular lesson concerns not so much the special services but ordinary civilians. Anti-terror experts claim that the best way to survive mass hostage capturing is to try to avoid to be among the first captives, when terrorists do not have everything under control.
"In a situation when you feel there is a high chance of being taken hostage, you should leave the danger zone.", state an anti-terrorism pamphlet. Those 50 people who managed to escape from the danger zone on September 1 in Beslan only prove this fact. Obviously, one always runs a risk of getting shot by a terrorist. However, it is lower than the risk of getting shot afterward.
Lesson N4. Our special services need to develop new techniques
Terrorists are good learners. They quickly adjust and can practically foresee the next step of our special services. That is why it is inadmissible to make the information regarding the actions of our militia public.
It is also of utmost important to develop new methods of military operations to fight terrorism..
Konstantin Getmansky"
----
"What needs to be changed in the work of special services
Russian special services ought to learn certain lessons from the tragedy in Beslan. Some of the lessons appear quite obvious already. Not only should the FSB staff and members of the Ministry of Internal Affairs be aware of them, but common Russian citizens have to be informed as well.
Lesson N1. Militants have to used intelligently
Russian official law enforcement structures came face to face with something rather unusual while in Beslan. Men, whose children and relatives had been kept hostage inside the building, picked up guns in order to prevent the rebels from escaping. According to some sources however, those armed civilians had been actually preparing to storm the school building. Most likely, as soon as two bombs had exploded, they were the first ones to approach the building to cover up the children who were running away from school. Special services men had to chase after the armed civilians. They"ve lost their main advantage: suddenness. They failed to act at the speed of light. So basically, the so-called militiamen had hindered the work of the real professionals.
Since no one can guarantee at this point that there will be no new hostages capturing situations in North Caucasus, it would probably be good to think about how such spontaneous actions could be used.
-It was impossible to disarm those civilians; it could have lead to typical street fight between militia and civilians, -states one of the FSB officials in Beslan, - those armed civilians could have been used intelligently. For instance, they could have been for cordoning off the crowed from the epicenter as well as preventing the rebels from fleeing. Obviously, they had to have a specially appointed commander to keep everything under control.
One should also think about military insignia to enable special service members distinguish ordinary civilians from armed bandits.
Lesson N2. Field hospitals beat Ambulances
Military operation at the Theater center on Dubrovka (Moscow) gave rise to an interesting discussion on the pages of the Russian newspaper "Izvestia." The main argument concerned the following fact: whether the victims should have been transported to hospitals or helped right there in field hospitals. Those in support of the evacuation used to say that there was no need for field hospitals in the downtown Moscow. According to them, the victims had been provided with professional medical assistance in hospitals.
Those who are in support of field hospitals are military doctors in most cases. Judging by their experience, precious time had been lost during the evacuation. Ambulances, in their opinion, mainly functioned as taxis that simply transported people to the local hospitals.
Storm of the school in Beslan was indeed spontaneous. There was drastic shortage of Ambulances and people had to be transported to clinics in ordinary autos. However, many children were treated right on spot in field hospital arranged by the Ministry of Emergency Situations of the Russian Federation. It was only after people received first aid in those field hospitals were they transported to a regular hospital.
Most likely, doctors of those field hospitals had saved lives to several dozen people. Thus, the events in Beslan have clearly demonstrated that field hospitals are tremendously important and they ought to be used at all times when dealing with high numbers of victims.
Lesson N3. Avoid being taken hostage
This particular lesson concerns not so much the special services but ordinary civilians. Anti-terror experts claim that the best way to survive mass hostage capturing is to try to avoid to be among the first captives, when terrorists do not have everything under control.
"In a situation when you feel there is a high chance of being taken hostage, you should leave the danger zone.", state an anti-terrorism pamphlet. Those 50 people who managed to escape from the danger zone on September 1 in Beslan only prove this fact. Obviously, one always runs a risk of getting shot by a terrorist. However, it is lower than the risk of getting shot afterward.
Lesson N4. Our special services need to develop new techniques
Terrorists are good learners. They quickly adjust and can practically foresee the next step of our special services. That is why it is inadmissible to make the information regarding the actions of our militia public.
It is also of utmost important to develop new methods of military operations to fight terrorism..
Konstantin Getmansky"
----
09-07-04, 09:59 AM
#390
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http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/07/opinion/07brooks.html
Cult of Death
By DAVID BROOKS
Published: September 7, 2004
ARTICLE TOOLS
E-Mail This Article
Printer-Friendly Format
We've been forced to witness the massacre of innocents. In New York, Madrid, Moscow, Tel Aviv, Baghdad and Bali, we have seen thousands of people destroyed while going about the daily activities of life.
We've been forced to endure the massacre of children. Whether it's teenagers outside an Israeli disco or students in Beslan, Russia, we've seen kids singled out as special targets.
We should by now have become used to the death cult that is thriving at the fringes of the Muslim world. This is the cult of people who are proud to declare, "You love life, but we love death." This is the cult that sent waves of defenseless children to be mowed down on the battlefields of the Iran-Iraq war, that trains kindergartners to become bombs, that fetishizes death, that sends people off joyfully to commit mass murder.
This cult attaches itself to a political cause but parasitically strangles it. The death cult has strangled the dream of a Palestinian state. The suicide bombers have not brought peace to Palestine; they've brought reprisals. The car bombers are not pushing the U.S. out of Iraq; they're forcing us to stay longer. The death cult is now strangling the Chechen cause, and will bring not independence but blood.
But that's the idea. Because the death cult is not really about the cause it purports to serve. It's about the sheer pleasure of killing and dying.
It's about massacring people while in a state of spiritual loftiness. It's about experiencing the total freedom of barbarism - freedom even from human nature, which says, Love children, and Love life. It's about the joy of sadism and suicide.
We should be used to this pathological mass movement by now. We should be able to talk about such things. Yet when you look at the Western reaction to the Beslan massacres, you see people quick to divert their attention away from the core horror of this act, as if to say: We don't want to stare into this abyss. We don't want to acknowledge those parts of human nature that were on display in Beslan. Something here, if thought about too deeply, undermines the categories we use to live our lives, undermines our faith in the essential goodness of human beings.
Three years after Sept. 11, too many people have become experts at averting their eyes. If you look at the editorials and public pronouncements made in response to Beslan, you see that they glide over the perpetrators of this act and search for more conventional, more easily comprehensible targets for their rage.
The Boston Globe editorial, which was typical of the American journalistic response, made two quick references to the barbarity of the terrorists, but then quickly veered off with long passages condemning Putin and various Russian policy errors.
The Dutch foreign minister, Bernard Bot, speaking on behalf of the European Union, declared: "All countries in the world need to work together to prevent tragedies like this. But we also would like to know from the Russian authorities how this tragedy could have happened."
It wasn't a tragedy. It was a carefully planned mass murder operation. And it wasn't Russian authorities who stuffed basketball nets with explosives and shot children in the back as they tried to run away.
Whatever horrors the Russians have perpetrated upon the Chechens, whatever their ineptitude in responding to the attack, the essential nature of this act was in the act itself. It was the fact that a team of human beings could go into a school, live with hundreds of children for a few days, look them in the eyes and hear their cries, and then blow them up.
Dissertations will be written about the euphemisms the media used to describe these murderers. They were called "separatists" and "hostage-takers." Three years after Sept. 11, many are still apparently unable to talk about this evil. They still try to rationalize terror. What drives the terrorists to do this? What are they trying to achieve?
They're still victims of the delusion that Paul Berman diagnosed after Sept. 11: "It was the belief that, in the modern world, even the enemies of reason cannot be the enemies of reason. Even the unreasonable must be, in some fashion, reasonable."
This death cult has no reason and is beyond negotiation. This is what makes it so frightening. This is what causes so many to engage in a sort of mental diversion. They don't want to confront this horror. So they rush off in search of more comprehensible things to hate.
By DAVID BROOKS
Published: September 7, 2004
ARTICLE TOOLS
E-Mail This Article
Printer-Friendly Format
We've been forced to witness the massacre of innocents. In New York, Madrid, Moscow, Tel Aviv, Baghdad and Bali, we have seen thousands of people destroyed while going about the daily activities of life.
We've been forced to endure the massacre of children. Whether it's teenagers outside an Israeli disco or students in Beslan, Russia, we've seen kids singled out as special targets.
We should by now have become used to the death cult that is thriving at the fringes of the Muslim world. This is the cult of people who are proud to declare, "You love life, but we love death." This is the cult that sent waves of defenseless children to be mowed down on the battlefields of the Iran-Iraq war, that trains kindergartners to become bombs, that fetishizes death, that sends people off joyfully to commit mass murder.
This cult attaches itself to a political cause but parasitically strangles it. The death cult has strangled the dream of a Palestinian state. The suicide bombers have not brought peace to Palestine; they've brought reprisals. The car bombers are not pushing the U.S. out of Iraq; they're forcing us to stay longer. The death cult is now strangling the Chechen cause, and will bring not independence but blood.
But that's the idea. Because the death cult is not really about the cause it purports to serve. It's about the sheer pleasure of killing and dying.
It's about massacring people while in a state of spiritual loftiness. It's about experiencing the total freedom of barbarism - freedom even from human nature, which says, Love children, and Love life. It's about the joy of sadism and suicide.
We should be used to this pathological mass movement by now. We should be able to talk about such things. Yet when you look at the Western reaction to the Beslan massacres, you see people quick to divert their attention away from the core horror of this act, as if to say: We don't want to stare into this abyss. We don't want to acknowledge those parts of human nature that were on display in Beslan. Something here, if thought about too deeply, undermines the categories we use to live our lives, undermines our faith in the essential goodness of human beings.
Three years after Sept. 11, too many people have become experts at averting their eyes. If you look at the editorials and public pronouncements made in response to Beslan, you see that they glide over the perpetrators of this act and search for more conventional, more easily comprehensible targets for their rage.
The Boston Globe editorial, which was typical of the American journalistic response, made two quick references to the barbarity of the terrorists, but then quickly veered off with long passages condemning Putin and various Russian policy errors.
The Dutch foreign minister, Bernard Bot, speaking on behalf of the European Union, declared: "All countries in the world need to work together to prevent tragedies like this. But we also would like to know from the Russian authorities how this tragedy could have happened."
It wasn't a tragedy. It was a carefully planned mass murder operation. And it wasn't Russian authorities who stuffed basketball nets with explosives and shot children in the back as they tried to run away.
Whatever horrors the Russians have perpetrated upon the Chechens, whatever their ineptitude in responding to the attack, the essential nature of this act was in the act itself. It was the fact that a team of human beings could go into a school, live with hundreds of children for a few days, look them in the eyes and hear their cries, and then blow them up.
Dissertations will be written about the euphemisms the media used to describe these murderers. They were called "separatists" and "hostage-takers." Three years after Sept. 11, many are still apparently unable to talk about this evil. They still try to rationalize terror. What drives the terrorists to do this? What are they trying to achieve?
They're still victims of the delusion that Paul Berman diagnosed after Sept. 11: "It was the belief that, in the modern world, even the enemies of reason cannot be the enemies of reason. Even the unreasonable must be, in some fashion, reasonable."
This death cult has no reason and is beyond negotiation. This is what makes it so frightening. This is what causes so many to engage in a sort of mental diversion. They don't want to confront this horror. So they rush off in search of more comprehensible things to hate.
09-07-04, 10:52 AM
#392
I hope that Putin is mistaken and that the US is doing nothing that could give comfort to Chechnyan terrorists. Granted, he could have been a little more cooperative on Iraq. But we really need to make this "the two big guys take on everybody who believes in intentionally targeting civilians and children" show.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe....us/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe....us/index.html
Putin blasts U.S. on terror stance
From CNN Moscow Bureau Chief Jill Dougherty
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 Posted: 2:48 AM EDT (0648 GMT)
Mourners weep over the coffins of hostages killed in the siege.
MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin has said that mid-level officials in the U.S. government were undermining his country's war on terrorism by supporting Chechen separatists, whom he compared to al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.
Putin's charge, made in a meeting with a group of western foreign policy experts, came just days after hundreds of people, mostly children, died in the bloody end to the Beslan siege.
Putin also defended his government's decision to storm the school and said the hostage holders had begun shooting children out of boredom.
His comments did not suggest the final raid was triggered by the shooting of children.
In the wide-ranging meeting which lasted almost four hours, Putin said he likes President Bush, calling him a friendly, decent, predictable person.
But Putin said each time Russia complained to the Bush administration about meetings held between U.S. officials and Chechen separatist representatives, the U.S. response has been "we'll get back to you" or "we reserve the right to talk with anyone we want."
Putin blamed what he called a "Cold War mentality" on the part of some U.S. officials, but likened their demands that Russia negotiate with the Chechen separatists to the U.S. talking to al Qaeda.
These are not "freedom fighters," Putin said. "Would you talk with Osama Bin Laden?" he asked.
Putin said the Chechen separatists are trying to ignite ethnic tensions in the former Soviet Union and it could have severe repercussions.
"Osama Bin Laden attacked the United States saying he was doing it because of policies in the Middle East," Putin said. "Do you call him a freedom fighter?"
Putin's comments came a few weeks after the U.S. granted asylum to Ilias Akhmadov, the "foreign minister" of the Chechen separatist movement.
The Russian president also justified the rescue operation in Beslan, conceding that it took time to mobilize the operation.
He said Russian special forces stormed the school knowing they themselves were likely to be killed.
In one dramatic moment, Putin said Russian security forces overheard a disturbing walkie-talkie conversation between the terrorists:
"What are you doing? Why? I hear some noise. What's going on? I'm just in the middle of shooting some children."
"They were bored," Putin said. "So they shot children."
Putin said investigators determined the hostage takers included 10 fighters from "Arab" countries, along with others from the former Soviet Union and one person from North Ossetia where the hostage crisis unfolded.
Putin said the terrorists' goal was to ignite conflict between two local ethnic groups, the Ingush and the Ossetians.
In other comments, Putin said Russia would take its own approach to democratic reform.
"We'll do this at our own pace," he said. Democracy can mean different things in different countries, he said.
"In Russia, democracy is who shouts the loudest," he said. "In the U.S., it's who has the most money."
Putin declared two days of mourning for those who died in Beslan.
Asked about the U.S. presidential race, Putin was complimentary of President George W. Bush, saying he likes him. He is a friendly, decent, predictable person, but "it is not about personalities," Putin said.
He said polls in Russia show 7 percent support for Bush, and 25 percent for Democratic challenger John Kerry.
From CNN Moscow Bureau Chief Jill Dougherty
Tuesday, September 7, 2004 Posted: 2:48 AM EDT (0648 GMT)
Mourners weep over the coffins of hostages killed in the siege.
MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin has said that mid-level officials in the U.S. government were undermining his country's war on terrorism by supporting Chechen separatists, whom he compared to al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.
Putin's charge, made in a meeting with a group of western foreign policy experts, came just days after hundreds of people, mostly children, died in the bloody end to the Beslan siege.
Putin also defended his government's decision to storm the school and said the hostage holders had begun shooting children out of boredom.
His comments did not suggest the final raid was triggered by the shooting of children.
In the wide-ranging meeting which lasted almost four hours, Putin said he likes President Bush, calling him a friendly, decent, predictable person.
But Putin said each time Russia complained to the Bush administration about meetings held between U.S. officials and Chechen separatist representatives, the U.S. response has been "we'll get back to you" or "we reserve the right to talk with anyone we want."
Putin blamed what he called a "Cold War mentality" on the part of some U.S. officials, but likened their demands that Russia negotiate with the Chechen separatists to the U.S. talking to al Qaeda.
These are not "freedom fighters," Putin said. "Would you talk with Osama Bin Laden?" he asked.
Putin said the Chechen separatists are trying to ignite ethnic tensions in the former Soviet Union and it could have severe repercussions.
"Osama Bin Laden attacked the United States saying he was doing it because of policies in the Middle East," Putin said. "Do you call him a freedom fighter?"
Putin's comments came a few weeks after the U.S. granted asylum to Ilias Akhmadov, the "foreign minister" of the Chechen separatist movement.
The Russian president also justified the rescue operation in Beslan, conceding that it took time to mobilize the operation.
He said Russian special forces stormed the school knowing they themselves were likely to be killed.
In one dramatic moment, Putin said Russian security forces overheard a disturbing walkie-talkie conversation between the terrorists:
"What are you doing? Why? I hear some noise. What's going on? I'm just in the middle of shooting some children."
"They were bored," Putin said. "So they shot children."
Putin said investigators determined the hostage takers included 10 fighters from "Arab" countries, along with others from the former Soviet Union and one person from North Ossetia where the hostage crisis unfolded.
Putin said the terrorists' goal was to ignite conflict between two local ethnic groups, the Ingush and the Ossetians.
In other comments, Putin said Russia would take its own approach to democratic reform.
"We'll do this at our own pace," he said. Democracy can mean different things in different countries, he said.
"In Russia, democracy is who shouts the loudest," he said. "In the U.S., it's who has the most money."
Putin declared two days of mourning for those who died in Beslan.
Asked about the U.S. presidential race, Putin was complimentary of President George W. Bush, saying he likes him. He is a friendly, decent, predictable person, but "it is not about personalities," Putin said.
He said polls in Russia show 7 percent support for Bush, and 25 percent for Democratic challenger John Kerry.
09-07-04, 10:53 AM
#393
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Hostage taking and suicide bombing will be ongoing in Russia unless,
A. fence in Chechnya, 1 in a 1,000,000 happening
B. nuke it or
C. same situation as Israeli/Palestinian years down the road
A. fence in Chechnya, 1 in a 1,000,000 happening
B. nuke it or
C. same situation as Israeli/Palestinian years down the road
09-07-04, 11:12 AM
#394
DVD Talk Hero
They're still victims of the delusion that Paul Berman diagnosed after Sept. 11: "It was the belief that, in the modern world, even the enemies of reason cannot be the enemies of reason. Even the unreasonable must be, in some fashion, reasonable."
This death cult has no reason and is beyond negotiation. This is what makes it so frightening. This is what causes so many to engage in a sort of mental diversion. They don't want to confront this horror. So they rush off in search of more comprehensible things to hate.
This death cult has no reason and is beyond negotiation. This is what makes it so frightening. This is what causes so many to engage in a sort of mental diversion. They don't want to confront this horror. So they rush off in search of more comprehensible things to hate.
09-07-04, 11:41 AM
#396
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In an interview late Monday with foreign journalists and academics, Putin again rejected Western calls for negotiations with Chechen rebel representatives, Britain’s Guardian daily reported.
“Why don’t you meet Osama bin Laden, invite him to Brussels or to the White House and engage in talks, ask him what he wants and give it to him so he leaves you in peace?,” the Guardian quoted Putin as saying sarcastically.
“You find it possible to set some limitations in your dealings with these bastards, so why should we talk to people who are child-killers?”
“Why don’t you meet Osama bin Laden, invite him to Brussels or to the White House and engage in talks, ask him what he wants and give it to him so he leaves you in peace?,” the Guardian quoted Putin as saying sarcastically.
“You find it possible to set some limitations in your dealings with these bastards, so why should we talk to people who are child-killers?”
09-07-04, 12:55 PM
#398
DVD Talk Hero
You guys realize that if you agree with him, you also agree with the fact he is calling YOU mindless automatons that should not be bothered with thinking now do you? Join the herd, condemn and shut up! And you don't find that the least bit insulting? Wow...
According to that guy thinking is a mental diversion used by people who can't face the horror. What is it? Horror causes your brain to shut off? You can't face the horror AND think at the same time? That argument is so stupid it's mindboggling.
According to that guy thinking is a mental diversion used by people who can't face the horror. What is it? Horror causes your brain to shut off? You can't face the horror AND think at the same time? That argument is so stupid it's mindboggling.
09-07-04, 01:05 PM
#399
Originally posted by eXcentris
You guys realize that if you agree with him, you also agree with the fact he is calling YOU mindless automatons that should not be bothered with thinking now do you? Join the herd, condemn and shut up! And you don't find that the least bit insulting? Wow...
According to that guy thinking is a mental diversion used by people who can't face the horror. What is it? Horror causes your brain to shut off? You can't face the horror AND think at the same time? That argument is so stupid it's mindboggling.
You guys realize that if you agree with him, you also agree with the fact he is calling YOU mindless automatons that should not be bothered with thinking now do you? Join the herd, condemn and shut up! And you don't find that the least bit insulting? Wow...
According to that guy thinking is a mental diversion used by people who can't face the horror. What is it? Horror causes your brain to shut off? You can't face the horror AND think at the same time? That argument is so stupid it's mindboggling.
Certainly differences of opinion can exist, but I think these terrorists are hopeless, irredeemable people, and our best course of action is to kill them before they kill us. Now when someone acts rationally, and offers terms that are reasonable to stop the violence, that is a different matter. You can debate and negotiate the terms. But I tend to agree that these people:
*Enjoy the terror and get off on it
*Need to be killed.
I am sure I can count on you to assure us they just need to be understood and hugged.
09-07-04, 01:16 PM
#400
DVD Talk Hero
This death cult has no reason and is beyond negotiation. This is what makes it so frightening. This is what causes so many to engage in a sort of mental diversion. They don't want to confront this horror. So they rush off in search of more comprehensible things to hate.
I am sure I can count on you to assure us they just need to be understood and hugged.