DVD Polizei

FYI, Russian officials say (FSB) around 3 terrorists are alive and are currently under "questioning".

What's going to be interesting is how Putin starts to reply to this.

Pharoh

Many factors are responsible for me making that statement, including:

Poor intelligence due to the loss of many top in-the-field agents, a severely hampered and limited intelligence budget, and a basic complacency leading to a failure to ultimately adapt to the new threat faced, is a major contributor to their inability.

Lack of sufficient funding for the miltary in modernisation efforts, both in equipment and in training, is another significant component. The Russian military is extremely poorly equipped, poorly trained, poorly funded, and poorly motivated, particularly to fight this battle. Technology is severely lacking for most forces, including the technology of communication and coordination. If you think the lack of coordination between the FBI and CIA was bad, you would be appalled and the lack in Russia.

Further, many valuable resources and assets have been reallocated in the last five years to combat the growing hegemonistic desires and capabilities of regional neighboors such as Uzbekistan, Ukraine, Georgia, Belarus, Turkmenistan, and others, weakening and depleting Russian resources. Couple this with all of the many and constant conflicts raging in the FSU, from small contained ones like, Ajara, TransDnestr/Moldova, Georgia/Sout Ossetia, Ingushetia, as well as the major battle in Chechnya, and it becomes obvious that already limited capital, limited in regards to equipment, monetary, and human capital, are spread woefully thin. They simply don't have enough of anything to succeed.

Another major issue, which was touched upon somewhere earlier by eX is corruption. Russian security, border/immigration, and transportation forces are rife with it. It is incredibly easy for terrorists, or smugglers, or whomever, to go where they want to go, when they want to go there, and posing as whomever they wish to be. Russia has almost no accountability for those moving about in their varied regions.

Border security is another serious problem. In many areas, there is none. Parts of Russia, and the surrounding areas, have areas that make the United States' border seem as a walled-off maximum security prison. Terrorists can not only go where they want, they can move with them whatever they want, often with the aid of Russian citizens.

There are a couple of other reasons, such as societal ones relating to vigilance and acceptance, but I think the ones posted above sum up the basics of my thoughts and feelings. Unfortunately, Russia is a far cry from even the paper tiger she was at the end of the Cold War. She is outgunned and outmatched.


Which is why I somewhere else, (don't remember if it was this thread or the airliner one), vaguely alluded to the only real available option. That is, taking the battle someplace else, reframing the battle. Russia can not afford to wait to be hit again. They have to hit the terrorist where they truly are, they have to change the dynamics of the war, much like was attempted to be accomplished in Iraq and Afghanistan. Russia must use what strength it has, still a powerful conventional military, to eliminate those attacking them on a now daily basis. If that means doing something in the Middle East, or a final battle against the likes of Basayev in Chechnya, then so be it. I don't think they ever will, but I honestly don't know what else they can do, except grin and bear it. Sad.


But of course, this is as always, just my humble opinon.

Pharoh

Man, where have you been with this old news?

Just kidding, and I agree. I am very anxious to hear what he has to say and do. I think the actions of the past day are some indication. He has to act and talk tough, not afraid to lose some, (many?), innocent lives, to further his political aims. Honestly, I think his talk will be far more blusterous than his action. I feel the people of Russia are going to give him a pass on this one.

VinVega

If you're going to take the fight to the terrorists ala (dare I say it Iraq - don't really like that example for numerous reasons, but work with me here), then you're looking at Saudi Arabia. This is the leading country with the Wahhabist movement. The US and the rest of the West would not accept Russia running roughshod all over Saudi Arabia. Where can they strike out with their military? You can't even take the fight to the arab terrorists in Chechnya since they'll just slip across the border to the south and you're screwed because you can't follow them. They are the main problem now, not the domestic Chechen fighters.

At any point does the West consider propping up the Russian regime, or assisting it militarily? The more bankrupt it becomes, the more likely that WMD will be sold to the black market and find their way into NYC or Washington's harbors. I think Russia needs the West more than it knows, but they're too stubborn to seek the help.

Mutley Hyde

Been out in the real world for a bit, and so had to catch up here. A few observations...

More criticism with absolutely ZERO offering of any alternative. I'm getting tired of asking what you who would criticize hardline tactics would do otherwise, because all I get back is dead silence... and then the criticism starts up all over again.

Complete cheap shot. How long has it been Pentagon policy? It goes back way beyond 3 friggin' years, I know that much. [Thanks to OldDude for that excellent subsequest post which proved my assumption correct ]

Pathetic. Woefully pathetic. The only reason you want the pictures shown is to sensationalize the body count for your "U.S. OUT OF IRAQ!!" agenda. Plain and simple. Please don't insult my intelligence and try to spin it any other way, as you already have with this absolutely pathetic post. I am seriously ill after reading that obviously insincere post.


Thank you for the clarification, Pelayu, and thank you for posting at all. We can seriously use your perspective here, it is more appreciated than I believe I can convey.

Myster X

Russia School Standoff Ends With 250 Dead

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...school_seizure

BESLAN, Russia - The three-day hostage siege at a school in southern Russia ended in chaos and bloodshed Friday, after witnesses said Chechen militants set off bombs and Russian commandos stormed the building. Hostages fled in terror, many of them children who were half-naked and covered in blood. Officials said the toll was at least 250.

Early Saturday, 531 people remained hospitalized, including 283 children — 92 of the youngsters in "very grave" condition, health officials said.

Ranger

Why were some of the hostages naked? It wasn't enough to threaten them with bombs and such, they had to be humiliated too?

Debaser

I thought it was because it was too hot in the gymnasium esp. without water.

DVD Polizei

VinVega,

I seriously doubt the US has the balls to spearhead a massive terrorist hunt, and I would place my bets on Russia to do something original and worthwhile. Even when 9/11 happened, most terrorists fled into other surrounding countries. We never got OBL, and it took us 9 months to capture a complete idiot named Saddam. We suck at fighting terrorism.

I think the Middle East is more terrified of our withdrawal of monetary support, than they are of our military might.

The US is into fluffy war games, and in the meantime hundreds of US soldiers get killed for nothing.

mrpayroll

Yes, that is correct. I was able to watch all of Fox News when this story broke, tonight on my Tivo. The temperatures were in the mid 90's, so in the gymnasium where there were hundreds or over a thousand people, the temps had to be well over 100 degrees.

Then take into account that they didn't have any water for over 24 hours and they started to take off their clothes to be as cool as possible. It must have been VERY miserable in there.

Death was too good for the terrorists, but they will have their rewards in Hell.

Chris

mrpayroll

And I guarantee you that because of this, something really bad is going to happen on our soil again in the near future. Then we will be running around like chickens with their heads cut off, wondering why it happened to us again.

The reason this will have happened, is because we didn't take out all of these guys when we should have. You can't tell me that the most powerful nation in the world, cannot take care of this problem. Sure we might step on some toes of the countries where these guys are hiding in (Pakistan, Iran, Syria, etc), but better that than seeing our innocent children die horrible deaths in their schools!

They are just like cockroaches. If you don't kill every last single one of them, their idealogy will continue to multiply. And believe me, there are thousands of young terrorist children right now, who would love to be in Paradise! Maybe they're too young to know about the 72 virgins , but they know about dying and are waiting for their chance.

Sorry, but the scenes on my tv tonight brought tears to my eyes and rage to my heart. And I'm a Christian!

Chris

DVD Polizei

Yeah, it's pretty sad when you live in one of the most powerful countries in the world, and an idiot who doesn't even have a high school education can waltz right into your backyard and wreak havoc on your life and kill those you love.

Maybe someday the US will wake up. But as you say, I definitely see at least a few simultaneous attacks on the US to make our leaders understand you cannot negotiate with terrorists--or their countries who represent them.

We have to ask ourselves if Fat Man and Little Boy created a more peaceful environment at the cost of lives. We need to start using our muscles fully extended.

DivxGuy

For one thing, the police have changed their tactics since then. No more "seal off the area and wait for reinforcements."

Pelayu

Moscow, Russia

atlantamoi

I'm looking at the photos for the first time this morning. Absolutely heartbreaking. I'm at a loss for words trying to make any sense how another human could commit these acts.

OldDude

You raise some great points, However, I am not sure taking the battle to the terrorists is an option for them. As you point out, they lack the resources and coordination for internal security. Many countries get themselves into trouble in war with long supply, inability to protect them, inadequate coordination, etc. A country weak in the technological resources and funding probably can't do it. Only the US has a miltary doctrine claiming to support the ability to wage major war on two far-flung fronts, and we are probably bluffing. This is also why Europe isn't a power, moreless a superpower. They really can't project power much beyond their own borders.

Pelayu

They were naked because the heat was incredible plus as there were a lot of them in the gym it was very stuffy in there. Some of the hostages asked permission to come up to windows to take the air but they weren't allowed to. Neither were they allowed to drink water or to eat. One of the kids said that some of the hostages had to drink urine.

Giantrobo

I'm so ready for this world to end....

Pharoh

Thanks for the response. And even though you aren't necessarily new here, welcome to the forum! Yours thoughts and views are definitely most welcomed and appreciated. Thank You.

mrpayroll

These poor children and teens are going to be scarred for life. This tells me that the terrorists had no compassion whatsoever for the young ones, not letting them have any water. Sure they let some of the moms and infants go, but they were just stalling for time.

As I watched Fox yesterday, one of the commentators said that the Russian government was not going to give in to any of their demands, so the terrorists mission was doomed to fail from the beginning and the terrorists themselves probably knew that from the start. So they probably expected that they would be killing a lot of children and young people and had already accepted that fact!

Chris

mrpayroll

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5881958/

Over 300 killed in Russian school siege
Survivors tell of unspeakable horrors; Putin visits town



A volunteer carries a small child after Russian special forces stormed a school seized by heavily armed masked men and women in the town of Beslan in the province of North Ossetia near Chechnya on Friday.

The Associated Press

Updated: 6:53 a.m. ET Sept. 4, 2004

BESLAN, Russia - Emergency workers on Saturday pulled more than 320 bodies out of a southern Russian school that had been held by heavily armed militants, a prosecutor said, and President Vladimir Putin accused the attackers of trying to spark an ethnic conflict that would engulf Russia's troubled Caucasus Mountains region.

The ITAR-Tass news agency quoted Russian Deputy Prosecutor Sergei Fridinsky as saying 322 bodies, including those of 155 children, had been recovered from the school in Beslan. That raised the death toll well beyond the 250 officials had previously cited.

Putin ordered the borders of North Ossetia closed Saturday as security forces searched the southern region for militants who escaped .

'All Russia grieves'

At least 92 of 283 children hospitalized following the bloody and chaotic gunbattle Friday in the town of Beslan were listed in very grave condition. In all, some 531 people remained hospitalized. Many were said to have been killed or wounded when a roof collapsed from an explosion before the Russian assault of the building began.

“All Russia grieves with you,” Putin said during a visit to the scene Saturday, carried on government television. “Even alongside the most cruel attacks of the past, this terrorist act occupies a special place because it was aimed at children.”

Putin said he had ordered North Ossetia’s borders closed while officials searched for suspects in the hostage-taking, carried out by militants seeking independence for the nearby republic of Chechnya.

“One of the goals of the terrorists was to sow ethnic enmity and blow up the North Caucasus,” Putin said. “Anyone who gives in to such a provocation will be viewed by us as abetting terrorism,” he said.

Valery Andreyev, Russia’s Federal Security Service chief in the region, said 10 Arabs were among 27 militants killed. The Arab presence among the attackers would support Putin’s contention that al-Qaida terrorists were deeply involved in the Chechen conflict, where Muslim fighters have been battling Russian forces on and off for more than a decade.

Series of attacks

New evidence suggested the attack had been planned long beforehand. A regional security officer told the Interfax news agency that militants had smuggled the explosives and weapons into the school and hidden them under the floor during a renovation this summer.

The attack follows a suicide bomb attack outside a Moscow subway station Tuesday that killed eight people, and last week’s near-simultaneous crash of two Russian jetliners last week after what officials believe were explosions on board. Those attacks were also linked to the conflict in Chechnya.

Putin arrived with smoke still rising from the shattered school, just hours after the last scattered shooting died away. Emergency workers recovered 235 bodies, including those of 143 children, from the school on Saturday, regional health ministry officials at the site said.

On Friday, commandos stormed the building and battled militants as crying children, some half-naked and covered with blood, fled through explosions and gunfire. Other children lay dead on stretchers lined up outside.

Growing toll

Fatima Khabalova, spokeswoman for the North Ossetian parliament, confirmed that 250 people were known to be dead. About 200 of the dead are children, she told The Associated Press.

The republic’s deputy health minister, Taimuraz Revazov, said 80 bodies including those of 12 children were in the city morgue. It was unclear whether the morgue toll included any of the dead found in the school on Saturday.

Dozens of people crowded around lists of survivors posted at the Beslan hospital, searching desperately for news of loved ones who were not yet accounted for. A man showed hospital nurses a photograph — a young boy dressed in a suit, like he was going to a birthday party or holiday celebration.

“We run here, we run there, like we’re out of our minds, trying to find out anything we can about them,” said Tsiada Biazrova, 47, whose neighbors’ children had yet to be found.

The majority of the dead who were found in the gym were killed by explosions before the assault began, causing part of the roof to collapse, Interfax and the ITAR-Tass news agency said, citing North Ossetian police.

An explosives expert told NTV television that the hostage-takers, themselves strapped with explosives, hung bombs from basketball hoops in the gym and set other explosive devices in the building.

Militants opened fire on hostages

Russian authorities said they stormed the building after the militants set off explosions and fired shots as emergency teams approached to collect the bodies of several men killed earlier. They said the hostage-takers had given them permission to take the corpses away. Witnesses quoted by Russian media said the militants opened fire on fleeing hostages and then began to escape themselves.

As hostages took their chance to flee, the militants opened fire on them, and security forces — along with town residents who had brought their own weapons — opened covering fire to help the hostages escape. Commandos stormed into the building and secured it, then chased fleeing militants in the town, with shooting lasting for 10 hours.

Channel One TV reported three of the attackers were arrested after trying to escape in civilian dress. Four militants were believed to have escaped.

Fleeing hostages, many of them wounded, streamed from the building into the surrounding area and parents searched frantically for their children. Ambulances couldn’t carry all the injured and private cars were pressed into service.

The operation ended a 62-hour ordeal that began when masked gunmen burst into the school courtyard on Wednesday, shooting in the air and herding people into the gym.

The region’s governor, Alexander Dzasokhov, said Friday that the militants had demanded that Russian troops leave Chechnya — the first solid indication that the attack was connected to the rebellion.

Unspeakable horror

Hostages told of more than two days of unspeakable horror — of children so frightened they couldn’t sleep, of captors coolly threatening to kill off hostages one by one. The gym where they were held was so cramped there was hardly room to move and so hot adults encouraged children to strip off their clothes.

When children fainted from lack of sleep, food and water, their captors simply sneered, said Alla Gadieyeva, 24, who was taken captive with her 7-year-old son and mother, all three among the survivors.

“They were totally indifferent,” Gadieyeva said.

President Bush said the hostage siege was “another grim reminder” of the lengths to which terrorists will go. World governments joined Washington in condemning the militants.

Putin warned against letting the latest attack in North Ossetia stir up tensions in the multiethnic North Caucasus region. “One of the goals of the terrorists was to sow ethnic enmity and blow up the North Caucasus,” Putin said.

“Anyone who gives in to such a provocation will be viewed by us as abetting terrorism,” he said.

Putin saw several of the hospitalized victims, stopping to stroke the head of one injured child and the arm of a woman.

Two emergency services workers were killed and three wounded, Interfax reported. Eighteen wounded commandos were being treated in a Defense Ministry hospital in the town of Vladikavkaz, the news agency reported, most of them with bullet wounds.

Intermittent negotiations led to the freeing of about 26 women and children on Thursday, and Russian officials and others had been in on-and-off contacts with the hostage-takers, but with few signs of progress toward a resolution.

Russian officials stressed that they had not planned to storm the school. The militants had reportedly threatened to blow up the building if authorities used force.

Two major hostage-taking raids by Chechen rebels outside the war-torn region in the past decade provoked Russian rescue operations that led to many deaths. The seizure of a Moscow theater in 2002 ended after a knockout gas was pumped into the building, debilitating the captors but causing almost all of the 129 hostage deaths.

In 1995 — during the first of two wars in Chechnya in the past decade — rebels led by guerrilla commander Shamil Basayev seized a hospital in the southern Russian city of Budyonnovsk, taking some 2,000 people hostage. The six-day standoff ended with a fierce Russian assault, and some 100 people died.

Putin had said Thursday that everything possible would be done to end the “horrible” crisis and save the lives of the children and other hostages in this town of 35,000 people.


That picture just tears out my heart. Wow the explosives and weapons were planted well in advance. Putin's response so far, seems to be very weak!

Chris

Pharoh

And your points are very good, valid, and most likely, and unfortunately, correct. It is just so damn frustrating. It is one of the reasons why I earlier expressed the fanciful hope that China, Russia, England, and the US get together and eliminate this problem. I realise though that will never happen.

mrpayroll

No they won't! Why, because it makes sense.

Chris

HistoryProf

Privyet

Pharoh

Some of President Putin's words spoken in Beslan: