So why cant the US just knock off terrorists again?
08-06-01 | 05:03 PM
#26
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No employee of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, political assassination.
--Executive Order 11905, signed by President Gerald Ford (February 18, 1976)
No person employed by or acting on behalf of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, assassination.
--Executive Order 12333, signed by President Ronald Reagan (December 4, 1981)
See also:
http://www.prospect.org/print-friend.../8/vest-j.html &
http://faculty.lls.edu/~manheimk/ns/moon2.htm
for some interesting insights into state-sponsored terrorism. Ahem.
--Executive Order 11905, signed by President Gerald Ford (February 18, 1976)
No person employed by or acting on behalf of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, assassination.
--Executive Order 12333, signed by President Ronald Reagan (December 4, 1981)
Twenty-three days after the Rockefeller Commission was impanelled, the Senate announced its own investigatory body, the Committee to Study Government Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities (also known as the Church Committee after its Chairman). Handling one of the largest investigations ever undertaken by the Senate, the Church Committee was charged with looking at CIA domestic activities; covert activity abroad, including alleged assassinations of foreign leaders; alleged abuses by the Internal Revenue Service and the FBI; alleged domestic spying by the military; and the alleged interceptions of the conversations of U.S. citizens by the National Security Agency. The Committee's inquiry lasted for almost a year, resulting in a six-volume report, released in April 1976. The Committee recommended, among other things, that the President consider separating the DCI from the CIA; that the authorities of the DCI over elements of the Intelligence Community be enhanced; that statutory charters be established for CIA, DIA and NSA; that the National Foreign Intelligence Budget be published; and that clandestine support to repressive regimes that disregarded human rights be prohibited by law. The Committee lauded several reforms (including a ban on assassination) already implemented by President Ford.
http://www.prospect.org/print-friend.../8/vest-j.html &
http://faculty.lls.edu/~manheimk/ns/moon2.htm
for some interesting insights into state-sponsored terrorism. Ahem.
08-06-01 | 05:44 PM
#28
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In response to posts about Bin Laden, I thought I should add that a former roommate of mine was from Ethiopia (a Christian nation, by the way) and at one point there, and through much of Africa, Bin Laden was viewed as a hero. Mainly because he was against Western influence in Africa, something I agree with. I cannot speak for the acts that have been attributed to him, but at one point, maybe 10 or 15 years ago, there was an entirely different perspective. I agree with Benedict that a man can be a savior one day and a terrorist the next, all depending on one's politics.
As to just killing the bad people, who are we to decide who is bad? It's not something I would ever want to do. Let them go through a trial, etc., not just knock them off. That would just continue the situation the world finds itself in now.
As to just killing the bad people, who are we to decide who is bad? It's not something I would ever want to do. Let them go through a trial, etc., not just knock them off. That would just continue the situation the world finds itself in now.
08-06-01 | 05:48 PM
#29
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Originally posted by Yancey
Let them go through a trial, etc., not just knock them off. That would just continue the situation the world finds itself in now.
Let them go through a trial, etc., not just knock them off. That would just continue the situation the world finds itself in now.
08-06-01 | 05:51 PM
#30
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Originally posted by classicman2
We can always try them in the kangaroo court we and our NATO allies have set up in The Hague. What a joke?
We can always try them in the kangaroo court we and our NATO allies have set up in The Hague. What a joke?
08-06-01 | 05:54 PM
#31
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From: Bartertown due to it having a better economy than where I really live.
no news people find these guys, the "terrorists" contact the news people and take them to teh meeting place, which I'm sure isn't their normal hideout
Originally posted by minifigg
Werd. Buy WHY? Surely if Diane Sawyer can find these guys...maybe she just has better intel??
mini
Werd. Buy WHY? Surely if Diane Sawyer can find these guys...maybe she just has better intel??
mini
08-06-01 | 05:57 PM
#32
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From: Bartertown due to it having a better economy than where I really live.
what does that have to do with anything?
Originally posted by minifigg
Interesting that REPUBLICANS are the framers of this order.
Interesting that REPUBLICANS are the framers of this order.
08-06-01 | 06:08 PM
#33
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Originally posted by mikehunt
what does that have to do with anything?
what does that have to do with anything?
08-06-01 | 07:24 PM
#34
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watch RAMBO 3. Tell me who the real heroes in that movie are. since you don't have the USSR to worry about anymore, you guys need a new villan.
the taliban, the iraqis, iranains, libyans, etc are the bad guys now.
side not :- the situation of women in saudi arabia and afghanistan is very similar (difference is there but that can be disregarded mainly due to the the turbulent past of afghanistan). Do we hear anything bad about the saudis??? no, why, cuz they're siding with the US.
the taliban, the iraqis, iranains, libyans, etc are the bad guys now.
side not :- the situation of women in saudi arabia and afghanistan is very similar (difference is there but that can be disregarded mainly due to the the turbulent past of afghanistan). Do we hear anything bad about the saudis??? no, why, cuz they're siding with the US.
08-06-01 | 07:43 PM
#36
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Originally posted by nomaan
Let me make a prediction. Whenever the israeli - palentinian issue gets settled, you won't be bothered by the 'terrorists' anymore.
Let me make a prediction. Whenever the israeli - palentinian issue gets settled, you won't be bothered by the 'terrorists' anymore.
08-06-01 | 09:00 PM
#38
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Originally posted by classicman2
Let me make a further prediction. The Israeli-Palestinian issue is never going to be settled.
Let me make a further prediction. The Israeli-Palestinian issue is never going to be settled.
You seem to be one of the few around here who understands this.....
08-06-01 | 09:34 PM
#39
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From: Bartertown due to it having a better economy than where I really live.
oh it will end eventually, once one of the sides has been totally killed off, unfortunately for those who hate each other that will never happen, at least I hope it doesn't since neither side deserves that
Originally posted by Giantrobo
You seem to be one of the few around here who understands this.....
You seem to be one of the few around here who understands this.....
08-06-01 | 10:34 PM
#40
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Heya, minifigg
Here's my plan.
Problem: "No employee of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, political assassination. "
Solution: We let the U.S. Virgin Islands secede and become their own country on the condition that they have to be a badass country and do our dirty work for us.
It's kind of a variation on the good cop/bad cop thing. So, when some terrorist hiding out in Syria or someplace blows up an airliner we can say, 'uh-oh, not much we can do about it, but those Virgin Islanders are nuts and they hate that sort of thing. Don't know if we can hold 'em back'
Here's my plan.
Problem: "No employee of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, political assassination. "
Solution: We let the U.S. Virgin Islands secede and become their own country on the condition that they have to be a badass country and do our dirty work for us.
It's kind of a variation on the good cop/bad cop thing. So, when some terrorist hiding out in Syria or someplace blows up an airliner we can say, 'uh-oh, not much we can do about it, but those Virgin Islanders are nuts and they hate that sort of thing. Don't know if we can hold 'em back'
08-07-01 | 12:06 AM
#41
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Sorry, I didn't read read through the thread before posting my last comment. I want to add a serious reply
Ok, but sometimes defining terrorism is very simple.
- Craig
---------------------
[taken from a story about Palestinian suicide bombers: http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/isrep...really_pf.html
... to free the children to act on that hatred, a second teaching is deeply inculcated throughout their childhood. The Palestinians teach explicitly, as do many Arab nations, that to die in the "jihad" -- holy war -- against Israel purchases the "martyr" instant acceptance into heaven. And it is a very red-blooded and lusty male heaven they are promised, characterized first and foremost by endless sex with a multitude of virgins.
Recently, the mufti of Jerusalem and Palestine, Sheik Ikrima Sabri -- the highest religious authority in the region -- was interviewed by the Egyptian weekly, Al-Ahram Al-Arabi about his admiration for child "martyrs." Dozens of Palestinian youths reportedly have died since late September in violent clashes with Israelis after the meltdown of the doomed Clinton-brokered "peace process."
"I feel the martyr is lucky because the angels usher him to his wedding in heaven," said the mufti, appointed by Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat. "There is no doubt that a child [martyr] suggests that the new generation will carry on the mission with determination. The younger the martyr, the greater and the more I respect him."
Many Palestinian toddlers are raised on war and martyrdom.
Lavishing praise specifically on the sacrifice of Palestinian children to the cause, Sabri reflected: "One [child martyr] wrote his name on a note before he died. He wrote: 'the martyr so and so.' In every martyr's pocket we find a note with his name on it. He sentences himself to martyrdom even before he becomes a martyr."
The interviewer then asked an incredible question: "Is this why the mothers cry with joy when they hear about their sons' death?"
"They willingly sacrifice their offspring for the sake of freedom," answered the mufti. "It is a great display of the power of belief. The mother is participating in the great reward of the Jihad to liberate Al-Aqsa."
In an apparent reference to the widely held belief that martyrs who die killing an infidel will be given 50 virgins in heaven, Sabri added: "I talked to a young man ... [who] said: '... I want to marry the black-eyed [beautiful] women of heaven.' The next day he became a martyr. I am sure his mother was filled with joy about his heavenly marriage. Such a son must have such a mother."
The Jerusalem Post's Oct. 27 edition revealed the shocking aftermath of the violent deaths of some Palestinian children.
"Interviewed by journalists after [recent] tragedies, some of the parents of these young victims refer to their children as shahids (martyrs), whose lives were given willingly and proudly to the Palestinian cause in fighting the hated Zionist enemy," wrote Post writer Gerald M. Steinberg.
"In an unbelievably shocking scene, one mother boasted that she bore her son precisely for this purpose, and the father proudly claimed credit for providing the training. The parents will also receive a sizeable financial 'reward' from the Palestinian Authority," he added.
The preparation for martyrdom begins early.
In a Palestinian television program called the "Children's Club," young children are shown singing songs about wanting to become "suicide warriors" and to take up "a machine gun" to direct "violence, anger, anger, anger" against Israelis.
During the show, which features children aged 4-10, one young boy sings, "When I wander into Jerusalem ... I will become a suicide bomber." Afterward, other children stand to call for "Jihad! Holy war to the end against the Zionist enemy." In another segment, a boy who appears to be no more than 8 or 9 years old chants: "My patience has run out. ... All Arab existence cries for revenge" against the Jews in Israel.
Originally posted by benedict
I meant that when we start acting outside of the law on a regular basis - killing outside of wartime - then we lose any claim to holding the moral high ground: we become terrorist also.
....
there are plenty of people who have expereinced similar losses at the hands of those implicitly and explicitly supported (or even armed/trained) by the US and European nations.
I meant that when we start acting outside of the law on a regular basis - killing outside of wartime - then we lose any claim to holding the moral high ground: we become terrorist also.
....
there are plenty of people who have expereinced similar losses at the hands of those implicitly and explicitly supported (or even armed/trained) by the US and European nations.
- Craig
---------------------
[taken from a story about Palestinian suicide bombers: http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/isrep...really_pf.html
... to free the children to act on that hatred, a second teaching is deeply inculcated throughout their childhood. The Palestinians teach explicitly, as do many Arab nations, that to die in the "jihad" -- holy war -- against Israel purchases the "martyr" instant acceptance into heaven. And it is a very red-blooded and lusty male heaven they are promised, characterized first and foremost by endless sex with a multitude of virgins.
Recently, the mufti of Jerusalem and Palestine, Sheik Ikrima Sabri -- the highest religious authority in the region -- was interviewed by the Egyptian weekly, Al-Ahram Al-Arabi about his admiration for child "martyrs." Dozens of Palestinian youths reportedly have died since late September in violent clashes with Israelis after the meltdown of the doomed Clinton-brokered "peace process."
"I feel the martyr is lucky because the angels usher him to his wedding in heaven," said the mufti, appointed by Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat. "There is no doubt that a child [martyr] suggests that the new generation will carry on the mission with determination. The younger the martyr, the greater and the more I respect him."
Many Palestinian toddlers are raised on war and martyrdom.
Lavishing praise specifically on the sacrifice of Palestinian children to the cause, Sabri reflected: "One [child martyr] wrote his name on a note before he died. He wrote: 'the martyr so and so.' In every martyr's pocket we find a note with his name on it. He sentences himself to martyrdom even before he becomes a martyr."
The interviewer then asked an incredible question: "Is this why the mothers cry with joy when they hear about their sons' death?"
"They willingly sacrifice their offspring for the sake of freedom," answered the mufti. "It is a great display of the power of belief. The mother is participating in the great reward of the Jihad to liberate Al-Aqsa."
In an apparent reference to the widely held belief that martyrs who die killing an infidel will be given 50 virgins in heaven, Sabri added: "I talked to a young man ... [who] said: '... I want to marry the black-eyed [beautiful] women of heaven.' The next day he became a martyr. I am sure his mother was filled with joy about his heavenly marriage. Such a son must have such a mother."
The Jerusalem Post's Oct. 27 edition revealed the shocking aftermath of the violent deaths of some Palestinian children.
"Interviewed by journalists after [recent] tragedies, some of the parents of these young victims refer to their children as shahids (martyrs), whose lives were given willingly and proudly to the Palestinian cause in fighting the hated Zionist enemy," wrote Post writer Gerald M. Steinberg.
"In an unbelievably shocking scene, one mother boasted that she bore her son precisely for this purpose, and the father proudly claimed credit for providing the training. The parents will also receive a sizeable financial 'reward' from the Palestinian Authority," he added.
The preparation for martyrdom begins early.
In a Palestinian television program called the "Children's Club," young children are shown singing songs about wanting to become "suicide warriors" and to take up "a machine gun" to direct "violence, anger, anger, anger" against Israelis.
During the show, which features children aged 4-10, one young boy sings, "When I wander into Jerusalem ... I will become a suicide bomber." Afterward, other children stand to call for "Jihad! Holy war to the end against the Zionist enemy." In another segment, a boy who appears to be no more than 8 or 9 years old chants: "My patience has run out. ... All Arab existence cries for revenge" against the Jews in Israel.
08-07-01 | 12:18 AM
#42
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Let me see...
the whole world accepts that Israel is the occupying force. They build settlements on the occupied land. they say that they won't build anymore settlements, but keep expanding the old ones, even when the occupancy rates are low.
they have the latest in military hardware and military service is compulsary for every israeli. they're pushing the palestinians to the brink. so when they retaliate, they're the terrorists? and israeli ppl are the victims?
gimme a break.
the whole world accepts that Israel is the occupying force. They build settlements on the occupied land. they say that they won't build anymore settlements, but keep expanding the old ones, even when the occupancy rates are low.
they have the latest in military hardware and military service is compulsary for every israeli. they're pushing the palestinians to the brink. so when they retaliate, they're the terrorists? and israeli ppl are the victims?
gimme a break.
08-07-01 | 01:19 AM
#43
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I've never quite understood news reports that describe the act of blowing oneself up as "cowardly", but using a tank/attack helicopter/fighter plane/bomber to kill as not...
Not that I condone terrorism, it's just easy for me to understand how some can be pushed to it. It's probably not too pleasant to have your land taken from you. It's probably not too pleasant to have to apply for permission to travel about the land in which you were born (and to be forced to use segregated roads when you are given the privilege). It's probably not too pleasant to be forced to live in overcrowded villages below the poverty line. It's probably not too pleasant to have to ration contaminated water when others have plenty.
Also interesting are the "rules of the game." It's perfectly acceptable for most nations to amass a military force and, assuming they win, use that military force to occupy land that previously wasn't theirs. Not so acceptable if you try and fail. So what do you do when any attempt to build a military force results in the aforementioned acts involving a tank/attack helicopter/fighter plane/bomber?
I'm glad I live in the West -- I feel quite safe here. However, I don't think I deserve to judge the actions of people living in a completely different situation.
Oh, and I agree with classicman -- I doubt a solution is likely.
milksheikh, pro Palestine, not in a position to judge Palestinians
Not that I condone terrorism, it's just easy for me to understand how some can be pushed to it. It's probably not too pleasant to have your land taken from you. It's probably not too pleasant to have to apply for permission to travel about the land in which you were born (and to be forced to use segregated roads when you are given the privilege). It's probably not too pleasant to be forced to live in overcrowded villages below the poverty line. It's probably not too pleasant to have to ration contaminated water when others have plenty.
Also interesting are the "rules of the game." It's perfectly acceptable for most nations to amass a military force and, assuming they win, use that military force to occupy land that previously wasn't theirs. Not so acceptable if you try and fail. So what do you do when any attempt to build a military force results in the aforementioned acts involving a tank/attack helicopter/fighter plane/bomber?
I'm glad I live in the West -- I feel quite safe here. However, I don't think I deserve to judge the actions of people living in a completely different situation.
Oh, and I agree with classicman -- I doubt a solution is likely.
milksheikh, pro Palestine, not in a position to judge Palestinians
Last edited by milkshake; 08-07-01 at 01:21 AM.
08-07-01 | 08:39 AM
#44
DVD Talk God
Originally posted by nomaan
Let me see...
the whole world accepts that Israel is the occupying force. They build settlements on the occupied land. they say that they won't build anymore settlements, but keep expanding the old ones, even when the occupancy rates are low.
they have the latest in military hardware and military service is compulsary for every israeli. they're pushing the palestinians to the brink. so when they retaliate, they're the terrorists? and israeli ppl are the victims?
gimme a break.
Let me see...
the whole world accepts that Israel is the occupying force. They build settlements on the occupied land. they say that they won't build anymore settlements, but keep expanding the old ones, even when the occupancy rates are low.
they have the latest in military hardware and military service is compulsary for every israeli. they're pushing the palestinians to the brink. so when they retaliate, they're the terrorists? and israeli ppl are the victims?
gimme a break.
The Palestinians do not have to be pushed to the brink. They have a history of trouble making.
The whole world most assuredly does not accept the statement that Israel is the occupying force. Many, probably most third world countries do, but certainly not the United States & Western Europe - BTW: Some of the more moderate Arab states are glad to see a strong Israeli presence in the area also. Arab public opinion prohibits many Arab states from expressing their true feelings about the Palestinians.
08-07-01 | 09:18 AM
#45
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?? even your media refers to it. UN has passed resolutions on it... i mean, if you don't want to accept it, thats different..
if it weren't for the U.S's blocking everything againts Israel in the UN, we could actually get somewhere..
I have a question. we've had 40+ replies here. how many here actually know the history behind these conflicts??
How many of you know why Osama bin laden is doing what hes doing? We know hes a terrorist cuz the media say so, but whats his motivation?
if it weren't for the U.S's blocking everything againts Israel in the UN, we could actually get somewhere..
I have a question. we've had 40+ replies here. how many here actually know the history behind these conflicts??
How many of you know why Osama bin laden is doing what hes doing? We know hes a terrorist cuz the media say so, but whats his motivation?
08-07-01 | 09:21 AM
#46
DVD Talk Hero
Originally posted by nomaan
I have a question. we've had 40+ replies here. how many here actually know the history behind these conflicts??
How many of you know why Osama bin laden is doing what hes doing? We know hes a terrorist cuz the media say so, but whats his motivation?
I have a question. we've had 40+ replies here. how many here actually know the history behind these conflicts??
How many of you know why Osama bin laden is doing what hes doing? We know hes a terrorist cuz the media say so, but whats his motivation?
who cares why he's doing it, whatever his reason, it isn't gonna be justified enough to slaughter innocent civilians.
08-07-01 | 09:22 AM
#47
DVD Talk Gold Edition
saerch for "occupied territory" on cnn and bbc's website and see what comes up..
last time i checked they were credible news media souce of the western world (atleast one of them)
last time i checked they were credible news media souce of the western world (atleast one of them)
08-07-01 | 09:28 AM
#48
DVD Talk Hero
Originally posted by nomaan
saerch for "occupied territory" on cnn and bbc's website and see what comes up..
last time i checked they were credible news media souce of the western world (atleast one of them)
saerch for "occupied territory" on cnn and bbc's website and see what comes up..
last time i checked they were credible news media souce of the western world (atleast one of them)
like i said i didn't read the whole thread...are you talking about Israel occuping the West Bank and Gaza? they are. Everyone knows it. The Mitchel report says they need to stop the construction immediately, Arrafat agrees with it.
08-07-01 | 09:30 AM
#49
DVD Talk Gold Edition
1945
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decoloni...eworldin45.pdf
NOW
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decoloni...worldtoday.pdf
OMG !! Palestine simply vanished. Can't be.. They must have sold it or something..
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decoloni...eworldin45.pdf
NOW
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decoloni...worldtoday.pdf
OMG !! Palestine simply vanished. Can't be.. They must have sold it or something..
08-07-01 | 09:33 AM
#50
DVD Talk Hero
Originally posted by nomaan
Palestine simply vanished. Can't be.. They must have sold it or something..
Palestine simply vanished. Can't be.. They must have sold it or something..
