Sorry, I didn't read read through the thread before posting my last comment. I want to add a serious reply

Ok, but sometimes defining terrorism is very simple.

- Craig
---------------------
[taken from a story about Palestinian suicide bombers: http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/isrep...really_pf.html


... to free the children to act on that hatred, a second teaching is deeply inculcated throughout their childhood. The Palestinians teach explicitly, as do many Arab nations, that to die in the "jihad" -- holy war -- against Israel purchases the "martyr" instant acceptance into heaven. And it is a very red-blooded and lusty male heaven they are promised, characterized first and foremost by endless sex with a multitude of virgins.

Recently, the mufti of Jerusalem and Palestine, Sheik Ikrima Sabri -- the highest religious authority in the region -- was interviewed by the Egyptian weekly, Al-Ahram Al-Arabi about his admiration for child "martyrs." Dozens of Palestinian youths reportedly have died since late September in violent clashes with Israelis after the meltdown of the doomed Clinton-brokered "peace process."

"I feel the martyr is lucky because the angels usher him to his wedding in heaven," said the mufti, appointed by Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat. "There is no doubt that a child [martyr] suggests that the new generation will carry on the mission with determination. The younger the martyr, the greater and the more I respect him."


Many Palestinian toddlers are raised on war and martyrdom.

Lavishing praise specifically on the sacrifice of Palestinian children to the cause, Sabri reflected: "One [child martyr] wrote his name on a note before he died. He wrote: 'the martyr so and so.' In every martyr's pocket we find a note with his name on it. He sentences himself to martyrdom even before he becomes a martyr."

The interviewer then asked an incredible question: "Is this why the mothers cry with joy when they hear about their sons' death?"

"They willingly sacrifice their offspring for the sake of freedom," answered the mufti. "It is a great display of the power of belief. The mother is participating in the great reward of the Jihad to liberate Al-Aqsa."

In an apparent reference to the widely held belief that martyrs who die killing an infidel will be given 50 virgins in heaven, Sabri added: "I talked to a young man ... [who] said: '... I want to marry the black-eyed [beautiful] women of heaven.' The next day he became a martyr. I am sure his mother was filled with joy about his heavenly marriage. Such a son must have such a mother."

The Jerusalem Post's Oct. 27 edition revealed the shocking aftermath of the violent deaths of some Palestinian children.

"Interviewed by journalists after [recent] tragedies, some of the parents of these young victims refer to their children as shahids (martyrs), whose lives were given willingly and proudly to the Palestinian cause in fighting the hated Zionist enemy," wrote Post writer Gerald M. Steinberg.

"In an unbelievably shocking scene, one mother boasted that she bore her son precisely for this purpose, and the father proudly claimed credit for providing the training. The parents will also receive a sizeable financial 'reward' from the Palestinian Authority," he added.

The preparation for martyrdom begins early.

In a Palestinian television program called the "Children's Club," young children are shown singing songs about wanting to become "suicide warriors" and to take up "a machine gun" to direct "violence, anger, anger, anger" against Israelis.

During the show, which features children aged 4-10, one young boy sings, "When I wander into Jerusalem ... I will become a suicide bomber." Afterward, other children stand to call for "Jihad! Holy war to the end against the Zionist enemy." In another segment, a boy who appears to be no more than 8 or 9 years old chants: "My patience has run out. ... All Arab existence cries for revenge" against the Jews in Israel.

Let me see...

the whole world accepts that Israel is the occupying force. They build settlements on the occupied land. they say that they won't build anymore settlements, but keep expanding the old ones, even when the occupancy rates are low.

they have the latest in military hardware and military service is compulsary for every israeli. they're pushing the palestinians to the brink. so when they retaliate, they're the terrorists? and israeli ppl are the victims?

gimme a break.

I've never quite understood news reports that describe the act of blowing oneself up as "cowardly", but using a tank/attack helicopter/fighter plane/bomber to kill as not...

Not that I condone terrorism, it's just easy for me to understand how some can be pushed to it. It's probably not too pleasant to have your land taken from you. It's probably not too pleasant to have to apply for permission to travel about the land in which you were born (and to be forced to use segregated roads when you are given the privilege). It's probably not too pleasant to be forced to live in overcrowded villages below the poverty line. It's probably not too pleasant to have to ration contaminated water when others have plenty.

Also interesting are the "rules of the game." It's perfectly acceptable for most nations to amass a military force and, assuming they win, use that military force to occupy land that previously wasn't theirs. Not so acceptable if you try and fail. So what do you do when any attempt to build a military force results in the aforementioned acts involving a tank/attack helicopter/fighter plane/bomber?

I'm glad I live in the West -- I feel quite safe here. However, I don't think I deserve to judge the actions of people living in a completely different situation.

Oh, and I agree with classicman -- I doubt a solution is likely.

milksheikh, pro Palestine, not in a position to judge Palestinians

What in the hell has compulsory military service to do with the problem?

The Palestinians do not have to be pushed to the brink. They have a history of trouble making.

The whole world most assuredly does not accept the statement that Israel is the occupying force. Many, probably most third world countries do, but certainly not the United States & Western Europe - BTW: Some of the more moderate Arab states are glad to see a strong Israeli presence in the area also. Arab public opinion prohibits many Arab states from expressing their true feelings about the Palestinians.

?? even your media refers to it. UN has passed resolutions on it... i mean, if you don't want to accept it, thats different..


if it weren't for the U.S's blocking everything againts Israel in the UN, we could actually get somewhere..




I have a question. we've had 40+ replies here. how many here actually know the history behind these conflicts??

How many of you know why Osama bin laden is doing what hes doing? We know hes a terrorist cuz the media say so, but whats his motivation?

I didnt read the rest of the thread but i think most people would answer this like:

who cares why he's doing it, whatever his reason, it isn't gonna be justified enough to slaughter innocent civilians.

saerch for "occupied territory" on cnn and bbc's website and see what comes up..

last time i checked they were credible news media souce of the western world (atleast one of them)

those left wing liberal biased things are considered news sources ;) :D

like i said i didn't read the whole thread...are you talking about Israel occuping the West Bank and Gaza? they are. Everyone knows it. The Mitchel report says they need to stop the construction immediately, Arrafat agrees with it.

1945

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decoloni...eworldin45.pdf


NOW
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decoloni...worldtoday.pdf



OMG !! Palestine simply vanished. Can't be.. They must have sold it or something..

thats what happens when you're a colony...that doesnt make it right but its happened all over the world.

also, are you saying all that land is rightfully Palestines? Israel never occupied it in history? or you saying Palestines' occupation of it is more important than israels?

dude... if you decide to go back in history, where does it stop? I can see it now, the native american (Indians) wanting all the white ppl to leave the US. We all know they occupied the area before the white man..

and its not palentinian occupation. if the jewish ppl have a beef, let them take it up with italy(?) cuz the roman armies messed it up for them when they destroyed the temple..

exactly what i'm saying. since we know both these people lived there historically, can't they both live there now. There is plenty of room, all of Jordan is available (;)), but anyway, there is plenty of space if they can just stop hating each other

going back in history, jews never had it better. they flourished under the muslim rule. nice payback..

read some books ppl, you'll understand the world a whole lot better..

and Palestine was fine under British rule, right? they had their own country and Israel didn't exist. Does that mean they should go back to that?

If their Arab brethen are so interested in the Palestinians having their own state, why don't they create them one in their territory? Why isn't Jordan "rushing" to create a Palestnian state in their country. After all, there are large numbers of Palestinians living in Jordan. Perhaps it has something to do with a statement once made by Anwar Sadat : "The Palestinians are mischief makers."

maybe the US can give some of its land to the Israeli's? We all know how many jews are in the US..

Did that statement sound stupid? Exactly what I thought when I read yours..


Oh, and to answer your earlier question why compulsary military service has to do with the whole issue?

its obvious that because of that, every adult israeli citizen becomes a valid target, cuz they;re not civilians any more. they're present on occupied land and you can't expect to be left alone.

there is a huge difference, since as stated above, Israel has historically occupied that land

Simply repeating this "occupied land" nonsense completly ignores the geo-political significance and realities of the area.

A creation of a Palestinian state, as envisioned by the current Palestinian leadership, would mean the end of the Jewish State, because it would leave the State of Israel with indefensible borders.

The reality is - that is not going to happen. The United States and Great Britain will not permit that to happen.

It is in the best interest of the U. S. , the moderate Arab states, and the Gulf states to have an Israel that is stronger than any of its Arab neighbors. Anything that threatens that strength is a destablizing force; and, therefore it should not be permitted to prevail.

<small></small>What land exactly, when and over what period?

In the Bible there is the story of the Good Samaritan. He is contrasted with the preacher who walks by on the other side. I always thought that mean that Samaritans were not Jews. Does that mean that Samarea (sp?) is not part of Israel.

Looking at it historically, in the last 100 years or so some land in the Mid East was purchased by European Zionists from absentee landlords. That in itself doesn't mean a state can be created but it does reflect badly on Syrians (who in the main were those absentee landlords!) who profited from the transactions in the late 19th and early 20th century but are now opposed to settlement of the area by Jews.

On the other hand, parts of the region not conquered during the Six Day War have been appropriated by local and national Israeli governmental organisations from the legitimate Arab owners.

On both sides the problem is militancy and intransigence.

<b>BigStinky</b> the article you cite smacks of propaganda although I do not doubt that there are bigots and brainwashed on both sides of the conflict. I've not looked through the Koran for some time so - although I am aware of the idea of instant ascension for those who die for Allah - I don't recall the section dealing with the lusty sex with endless virgins. Perhaps it lost something in translation...

Don't know, don't care. I will not pay attention to anyone who highlights their views with the purposeful murder of innocents.

You shouldn't kill people. If someone's values are so different from mine that they don't agree with that basic principal, then I have serious doubts about any position or idealology they put forth.

That being said, the US should never assassinate anyone. Everyone has a right to a fair trial at which they can answer the charges, and to have our intelligence organizations (which, as we know, are never wrong) act as judge, jury, and executioner is counter to the Constitution.

That may work....
It would certainly make it more interesting for the cruise passengers that dock there! ;)

OH MY GOD>>>>>>
Time has stopped! Phone the press!
I am AGREEING WHOLEHEARTEDLY with classicman. :eek: :thumbsup:

?? can you give me a definate time period ??

I'm not a zionist so i'm probably not the best to give the numbers but here is a guess...

~1950-present
~middle ages (before they got taken over and the crusades and all)
~1 A.D. (before Rome took over)
~500 b.c. (before Babylon took over)


you even stated that if you go back far enough you'll see they lived there but you said its pointless to go back in histoyr, yet you are the one who posted historical maps

that was an answer to someone who said that the western world doesn't consider israel to be an occupying force. i showed that in 1945, there was palestine and then it wasn't there soon after. i also asked that person to search for occupied territory on bbc and cnn's websites to see what pops up..




~middle ages (before they got taken over and the crusades and all)
~1 A.D. (before Rome took over)
~500 b.c. (before Babylon took over)



? middle ages? what exactly are the middle ages??

muslims had control of it around 800 AD and kept it till 19th or the 20th century, before they got colonized. I'm guessing that the last time the jews had control of that area was b4 1AD (read thad -- 1 AD)

thats 2000yrs dude...

the Red Indians lost control of america in the 16th century?

Justice for all? sure if your the white mans friend.

the crusades were against the muslims... not the jews.

red indian? thats highly politically incorrect :)

the indians were forced off their land which is bad. They were promised things in treaties which were broken which is worse. One evil doesn't justify another.

yeah, the crusades were by the European to "liberate" Israel

My history is a little rusty, but I believe the events went something like:

- Turks (Muslims) defeated the Byzantine army (eastern Christians) who were at the time occupying what was called Palestine. The Turks weren't particularly nice to Christians who wandered through.

- Western Christians (mostly Catholic, and largely French), decided to retake the "Holy Land", slaughtering just about everyone (civilians and soldiers) living in Jerusalem and its surrounds -- majority Turks, lots of Jews, and, over time, a good number of Byzantines who they were initially helping

- Lots of conflict over the next 200 years, eventually a Muslim tribe gained control

- Bounced back and forth among mostly Muslims (I think) as "empires" came and went, eventually (1500s) settling with the Ottomans

- Zionists started moving in in the late 1800s

- Palestine lost to Brits (as much of the Ottoman Empire was mandated to Western European countries) in roughly 1920 (close of WWI)

- Brits (Palestine and Transjordan) and neighboring French (Syria and Lebanon) haggling to carve up the region between them, while publicly indicating otherwise; Zionist immigration continues slowly.

- Palestinians (who have remained roughly the same group of people for centuries despite rule by however many empires and tribes), led to believe they may soon rule themselves, start to worry as Zionist immigration increases. Skirmishes begin (1920s and 1930s).

- Brits in 1946 decide they've had enough trying to figure out what to do with this land, and pass the decision on to the UN

- UN votes to divides Palestine (the vote was roughly 25 to 17 I think) into Muslim and Jewish states of roughly equal area -- Jewish state is maybe 50% Jews and 50% Muslims, while Muslim state is 99% Muslim (Jerusalem is to be an "international city" for all to own and worship in)

- Fighting (civil war) breaks out between Jews and Muslims. Britain pulls out, soon after war breaks out between Jewish state and surrounding Arab countries (Egypt, Syria, and Iraq).

- Here's where you hear different stories -- the Jews claim that Muslims migrated from the Jewish state to the Muslim state on their own, while the Muslims claims that they were forced out (murder, rape, torching of property, etc.). This is more important than just placing blame -- the UN proclamation creating the Jewish state forbids evacuation of Muslim residents and guarantees them full entitlement to their property. Of course, at 50-50, politics in the Jewish state would have been interesting, but the migration/exodus took care of that. Regardless, population density and poverty in Muslim areas grew with the 700k-1m refugees.

- Israel wins 1949 conflict and under armistice agreements gets nearly 50% more land. Jordan takes the West Bank, Egypt takes Gaza -- Palestinians once again under rule of others

- Wars in 1967(?) and 1973 also won by Israel, earning them West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights, and Sinai. More Palestinian refugees. Egypt gets Sinai back later via a truce agreement.

Correct me where I may be off...

I believe all this came from Castro , we figured out that if we killed someone like him it could spark a international fling . Also , it's much easier to get jackass people like Arafat to belly-up to a peacemaking meeting inside the US or in a US controlled area if they figure we arent going to kill him or allow him to be killed . Imagine some of the low-lifes out there just showing up in a enemy country , they would have thier heads blown off . Think Arafat could walk down the street in Israel ?
Speaking of Middle East :Iraq
Looks like we bombed more missle sites again .......

right on the money..

about the crusades .. i think it happened because one of the minister of the region destroyed a church (which wasn't allowed by law) he was punished and the church was rebuilt, but the christians in europe found this excuse and started attacking the muslims. i guess its important to point out that at this time, is called the golden period of islam, as they were they most advanced civilization of the time in all aspects.. this is the period of history that is refered to as the dark ages by the west, the europeans were not really well off, educated, etc, etc

Don't forget the buffer zones in question wouldnt be there if Israel wasnt attacked and won the 7 day war .

Seven days, or six?

Guess 6 , been years since History class :)

the senaca tribes in western NY are trying to do that exact thing. I guess they finally figured out teh land was worth more than a string of beads. People in salamanca and grand island NY are in danger off having their houses and land taken if the indians win their lawsuits