Wow...

'I Saw The Devil' is dark, dark stuff.

And very good.

Saw that one at TIFF and agree it was a solid piece of work, although I must admit I've grown tired of (and/or desensitized to?) the queasy, pounding, explicit gore in horror/thriller movies these days -- which would easily make this feel like an also-ran were it not for its relentlessly compelling performances -- but it's only logical that certain filmmakers in just about every country with strong film industries are virtually duty-bound to create at least one "envelope-pusher" to shake up the domestic scene and show they can do it just like Hollywood has been doing it to death for years now. Another picture I saw at the Toronto fest, RED NIGHTS by Julien Carbon and Laurent Courtiaud, likewise indulges in clinical, lingering and inevitably tiresome depictions of extreme torture to punch up what is otherwise the kind of pretentious softcore you'd expect from two HK-centric writer-directors besotted by the image of star Carrie Ng put forth in her Cat. III Hong Kong movies of the 1990's (which sadly led to precisely the kind of typecasting she returns to -- after a decade-long absence -- with this picture).

I watched the Korean DVD release of South Korea's MOSS (2010) the other day...it's the latest from the director of SILMIDO and the three PUBLIC ENEMY films. The film is a rural mystery with a general feel perhaps not too far removed from another recent South Korean film MOTHER...except whereas MOTHER turned things up in the closing portion of the film, I thought MOSS remained rather measured in its pacing. It started off quite interestingly enough with a fifteen-minute prologue set in 1978, before it jumped forward to a present-day narrative. I actually felt some sense of disappointment with the leap forward as I was rather intrigued with the prologue portion. However, after a short while the film did begin unfolding of the present-day mystery with regular flashbacks to what transpired from 1978 until the present-day. Generally speaking I had the film rated solidly as "good", but during the second half I did start to feel that the film was extending matters and getting overlong...it had an unusually long 162-minute runtime. Thus, in hindsight, I'd have to shave just a hair off my final rating and call it "average-to-good" as I don't really think the film needed to be as long as it was. Also, as a mystery film, I didn't find it especially satisfying at the end of things...it seemed rather...unnecessarily complex. I wonder if the film would have been better if it were played more linear in structure...sure the mystery aspect of the film would have suffered...but maybe playing it more straight with the audience would have removed some of the much-ado-about-nothing feel I had after the lengthy runtime.

Finally got around to THE STOOL PIGEON (2010)...the latest Hong Kong crime film from director Dante Lam (THE BEAST STALKER, THE SNIPER, FIRE OF CONSCIENCE). I found it to be rather standard Hong Kong crime fare...watchable enough but at the same time with a seen-it-all-before feel, perhaps coupled with a slightly subdued atmosphere...and I found some of the performances to be just a bit off early on, and too the pacing needed to be tightened up. The aforementioned applies to approximately the first forty percent of the 112-minute film. And just as that sense of disappointment was starting to catch hold, well, then the film really started building upon the foundation laid earlier. The final sixty percent of the film was actually quite good...cruel and savage, yet playing too to the heart and emotionally touching. THE STOOL PIGEON certainly surpasses Dante Lam's previous effort FIRE OF CONSCIENCE (which I found disappointing) and thus too it is undoubtedly better than THE SNIPER (which is really only for zealots of the genre). I recall having a comfortably positive opinion of THE BEAST STALKER but otherwise I'm a little hazy on that film so I can't say how THE STOOL PIGEON compares, though if I had to bet, perhaps I'd lay my money on THE BEAST STALKER being the slightly better of the two (because it was more evenly done whereas THE STOOL PIGEON took some time to warm up). All said and done though, THE STOOL PIGEON also ranks as easily recommended in my book. It doesn't really give you anything new, and - though the few action set pieces are effective - they aren't especially unique or innovative. So while THE STOOL PIGEON does not transcend the genre, I'd guess that Hong Kong crime fans will come away pleased...I certainly did.


Might as well add, I did watch THE LEGEND IS BORN - IP MAN (2010) prequel film (sort of an unofficial third film in the series), but it was quite a bit back so I'll keep it simple and say that I did find it surprisingly satisfying (I didn't care much at all for IP MAN 2). So, even though it isn't officially related to the first two IP MAN films and even though it is more a B-movie project, I'd say don't dismiss it on that basis alone. For what it was, it succeeded and if I had to watch two of the three films, I'd go with the first IP MAN of course, but then I'd bypass the sequel IP MAN 2, and instead opt for the unofficial third film prequel THE LEGEND IS BORN - IP MAN.

it's a puzzle, trying to work out why some HK films seem to work despite most of us in the west seeing them on small screens. waiting for them to come out, laying down so much money on them, makes them an event, but they're technically quite rich these day, but certainly lacking in imagination or creativity all too often.

agree though; beast stalker best, stool pigeon not quite as good, fire of conscience messy last place.

This applies to almost any country's contemporary film industry, really. Over the years, I've found that viewer expectations (which you mention) are more the issue than the films themselves, which vary in actual and perceived quality as much as they do anywhere else.

I am curious, though, to know if any folks here watch Hong Kong films that fall outside the action/martial arts/thriller/horror genres, as those generally don't constitute the majority of the city's output year over year, despite seeming to make up the majority of its representation in discussion threads here and elsewhere. There's a lot of titles I'm tempted to buy, and often do just to be a completist, but because opinions on them are almost non-existent, one never knows if something might be worth moving up in the "to watch" list. I think this goes back to something someone else mentioned earlier about western perceptions becoming the norm, in the sense that most of what western fans/reviewers seem to favour from Hong Kong are the action/martial arts/horror pictures, which subsequently gives a false impression that that's all the city produces.

That said, I'm curious if anyone has thoughts on the following (including a couple that do indeed fall within common genre boundaries):
Forget Me Not, Child's Eye, Amphetamine, La Comedie Humaine, Once A Gangster, Beauty on Duty, Crossing Hennessy, Just Another Pandora's Box, Womb Ghosts, All About Love, City Under Siege, Fantastic Water Babes, Break-Up Club, Hot Summer Days, Love In A Puff, Just Another Pandora's Box, All's Well End's Well Too 2010 (or any of it's predecessors)

whether they're entirely aware of it enough to exploit it for a site's reputation and quantity of readership seeing an increase, websites do (even if only instinctively) latch onto what's getting a reaction, and subsequent sites react to what's going (or has gone) down well with other sites.

everyone would benefit, i think, from more and more varied coverage, and everyone could do with getting away from the mechanics of big mainstream cinema being pulled across into this field i'd be more inclined to feel should always be about personal exploration and individualising choices over time. then you have a subsequent issue of how to filter the noise, and from a readers perspective, this is not something most of any sites readership can easily be said to be doing - after all, if you're following the stuff successfully on your own, you'd probably not find any one (or even several) sites that worthwhile following on a regular basis, as the best resources are hidden away and kept as tools for creating site content from or because people don't want their sites to portray themselves as weak or not "all seeing" (or even cherry picking) and so would rather continue to try and feed you what they think you want over and above letting you have the tools to feed yourself.

everyone would also benefit from going onboard at a website for a while and sensing what it's like from behind the bar : you're essentially talking to an audience that barely talks back, and since the readership figures are all you have to go on, the popular vote wins out. even when you add in content that's not so obviously going to be popular, it's in search of establishing or maintaining a sense of what's worth struggling to string together some words on.

Interesting points.

I think I get the gist of what you're saying. More varied coverage would be good, and obviously a site like DVDTalk somewhat provides that when it comes to many world cinemas, but not Hong Kong's. That's understandable, as there's really only a handful of people here even bothering with the stuff, so sticking to trusted genres is inevitable. Besides, the western audience for Hong Kong cinema might barely talk back because it's already rather small, is comprised of both newcomers and veterans who rarely see eye to eye (even here!), is spread too thin across countless discussion forums, and often keeps its focus narrow (action/martial arts/etc.). I think the way in which Hong Kong cinema has been promoted to and absorbed by the western fanbase for several decades now means a lot of what the city produces simply goes unexplored by that audience, or is seen as unnecessary to the bigger picture (a mistake), or explored only by a handful who, presumably, aren't interested in discussion (as you seem to suggest) or simply haven't the time to share because there's just too much to watch! I certainly don't visit a catch-all site like DVDTalk for deep, thought-provoking, contextualized discussions of the entire spectrum of Hong Kong cinema in particular, but I do appreciate the opinions that are posted here on the films that are viewed by others. Frankly there aren't many places where one can go for anything much different.

Filtering the noise is tricky. Oddly enough, some Asian- or HK-related sites that lean a bit more toward idol-worship than film appreciation are often valuable resources -- providing you can tease it out from all the inane fawning over pop stars -- and are often better indicators of what's truly "hot" IN Hong Kong entertainment circles than countless westerners reviewing/discussing/dismissing yet another costume swordplay epic, or martial arts actioner, or slick crime film, and largely comparing them to other, similar films within their own categories as an attempt at context, which can be a slippery slope.

Brian, I realize that East Asian cinema, especially Hong Kong cinema, is a particular passion of yours, in that sense I'm trying to vibe with your thought process on this subject...however I really don't feel that Hong Kong cinema is being dismissed to that great a degree. I might even put forth that it gets quite a fair share of coverage in comparison to other East Asian cinema such as South Korean and Japanese cinema.

Movie coverage seems to be a male-dominated arena so it seems natural to me that the coverage would lean more towards the action/crime/wuxia/horror films. Broadly speaking that list of Hong Kong movies you mentioned seems to be just an extension of the mass market action/crime/wuxia/horror films but now expanded to include romances/comedies/romantic dramas/parodies. Speaking for myself, I'm not slighting Hong Kong by not watching those films as I don't generally watch those genres even if they are Hollywood-made. Actually, I'm more inclined towards sampling an East Asian romance versus a Hollywood romance...and Hollywood comedies don't interest me at all really.

And you also mentioned something about what is actually "truly hot in Hong Kong" (to paraphase), but what does that matter. The TWILIGHT films are "truly hot" in the U.S., and I really don't have any interest in seeing them. Likewise, I often avoid "truly hot" comedies and such that are Hollywood-made. Another example being Indian cinema...what is "truly hot" with Indian mass audiences is a thoroughly unreliable indicator as to what will appeal most to Western audiences, and Indian audiences often ignore some high quality films that would be much better appreciated by International audiences.

Back to Hong Kong films I try to be thorough with action/crime/wuxia-type films and also take in some of the better horror efforts. When it comes to the comedies/romances/dramas I'll cherry-pick if something shows itself as extraordinary or to be more subjective if it seems interesting to me (so I have watched something like PERHAPS LOVE (and China's IF YOU ARE THE ONE), and I'll get around to ECHOES OF THE RAINBOW). Is it also possible that something such as Hong Kong comedies might not necessarily translate well to International audiences...and that applies to comedies from any country...American comedies might not necessarily appeal to International audiences.

Unrivaled as my favorite site for Hong Kong reviews is lovehkfilm and going back to that list of films you mentioned I don't get a sense that many of those are especially must-see films. Keeping in mind that a lot of us here have wide interests when it comes to International cinema. It's great that you have such a special passion for Hong Kong cinema, but for me there is x amount of time and money I have and that has to cover a lot of films. Once I get past picking up the crime/action/horror/wuxia and maybe another one or two others, well then I just have to move on. And again, I don't think there is an equivalent site to lovehkfilm that does as good a job in covering Korean and Japanese cinema.

At least the Hong Kong coverage, while too focused perhaps, is at least consistently focused. In other words, the wuxia films for example get a fair share of coverage for each one. I'd argue that Korean cinema is more greatly slighted in that there is a higher degree of randomness in coverage. As an example, MOTHER got a high amount of coverage, but I don't believe there was an evenness in coverage that spread across to films such as POETRY and maybe to a lesser degree MOSS. And the Korean horror film POSSESSED from a year or so ago...at least to my perception seemed overlooked and undercovered whereas maybe if it were a Hong Kong horror from the Pang Brothers maybe it would have been more high profile.

Also, you mention comparing films against others within their own categories, but I actually find value in that (and it seems a rather logical thing to do). As an example logboy and I both share a similar ranking of Dante Lam's recent action output...maybe a newcomer popping into this thread might be inclined to opt for the latest and greatest with a purchase of THE STOOL PIGEON, and maybe instead by comparing it to other similar films, someone on a tight budget might best be served by considering another suggestion within that same category. And just to note, I hope I'm not breaking the context of your original post by singling out individual phrases and such.

In general is Hong Kong really a hotbed of cutting edge cinema nowadays...as much as I like their crime/wuxia films, I'd be hard-pressed to tell anyone that Hong Kong is really pushing the envelope in terms of creativity, inventiveness, unique storytelling, etc. Heck, as much as I'm critical of Indian cinema, it might be argued that Indian cinema - while perhaps not doing it successfully - is at least attempting a greater variety in their cinema than Hong Kong is...Hong Kong is just giving us slight upgrades on their standard formula of action/crime/wuxia/romance/comedy/horror...but Indian cinema might possibly be more interesting - again not successful - but trying more interesting things. What great Hong Kong cinema are we ignoring exactly? At least a measure of Hong Kong cinema gets a lot of coverage.

I think of the Turkish film NEFES...if it had been a Hong Kong film then it would have gotten a lot of press...it's a war film. I found it to be a high quality film and basically no one covered it. Yeah, Hong Kong cinema might not be covered as broadly as you would like, but at least it gets covered. Another great film from Russia THE BANISHMENT...again not covered to much degree. I'd rather watch THE BANISHMENT three times over before I sit through INCEPTION again, and I'd watch NEFES twice over before sitting through AVATAR again.

I just think you are overstating the position that Hong Kong cinema is being some sort of disservice. To my eyes, it is much better covered than cinema from a number of countries...I mean how lacking is the coverage of Spanish-language cinema and Italian-language cinema and a host of others. I also understand that those examples might not be relevant to your point that only a certain portion of Hong Kong's output is getting press, but still perhaps the coverage not being extended to the romances/comedies/etc. is not being extended for a reason and the limited energies might actually best be directed towards giving more press to other countries being largely ignored. If a great Hong Kong comedy film from Stephen Chow or some highbrow/artsy romance/drama comes along, I'm fairly confident it won't be ignored on the International stage. On the other hand if the comedy is too Hong Kong specific or if it is a pop idol, mass-market romance for Cantonese audiences well I can't take too much issue with it not getting press beyond the target audience.

Anyway, that's enough to get the conversation started. You know Brian, I think we might have just sent everyone heading for the hills...I bet one of you readers is being really mean and rolling your eyes and thinking "uh ohh" it's those long-winded guys overexaming stuff.

And just to clarify, Brian, please accept that the tone of this post is simply watercooler conversational...it's a long, rambling post so if anything came across as combative it wasn't meant to...I just meant it as a conversation starter.

from the perspective of someone who has contributed & attempted to cover japan online, I'd say that if you take into consideration the language barrier most can't get past (& if they can, they're busy with other things) websites are, on the whole, reliant upon a knowledge / perception / understanding built over a long period of time, & are generally perpetuating interest in directors who've been around long enough to offer the chance for enough snippets to be conveyed repeatedly / selectively as a new project of theirs appears. of course, there's other reasons their work continues, but this is a primary reason their work is covered in the west. therefore, John Woo, although back to form with red cliff (& back to HK too) it's because late 80s / early 90s projects stood out dramatically enough that a minor hollywood career ensued that there's enough sense of what could be in his work that people know enough to cobble some stand-out reaction to his new project together.

with japan, there's so much that people have little collective & individual sense of that the balance between the range and intent of the output now more dramatically differs from what few online resources now cover, to the extent people are settling for Japanese films on the basis that they're little or no challenge to understand. this is made doubly ridiculous by one or two exceptional sites that are so effective that subsequent coverage seems pretty pointless, and sites with general coverage resort to familiar directors, action genres, big budget films, and anything thats easy to make look exciting which can the be portrayed as in-tune with what people want without reminding the audience they originally got interested because other cinemas didn't offer what they *need* that they stood more chance of finding if they searched around more & were more courageous about what's normally termed a 'blind buy'.

people writing sites are all too often unpaid, and more frequently wouldn't be worth paying, and can therefore only spare so much time and effort (easily eat 20 - 30 minutes on the simplest of posts on a blog) and consideration, to stuff that just feels as though it goes out into thin air unless you can sense some easily-attainable influence over what people are choosing to buy and watch above all else. in other words : the dynamics of fan-based website creation exert a massive amount of focus and influence from other people that may not actually be that interested in the films they profess to be a fan of, and certainly wouldn't necessarily be willing to pay out on if they weren't made so frequently obvious, and be written about from some obvious perspectives & knowledge.

people would do well to remember that there's quite often as much scattered snippets that can build an argument for a film being worthwhile as you would find gathered into a post in a site that caused a subsequent sensation and following; after all, i would apply my instinct and respond to a certain amount of awareness, and then initiate my own research to see if something seemed worthwhile, then simply construct my findings / views and share them to compensate for having little sense of if / when / how other people might be doing this out there somewhere.

also worth remembering that although directors and countries provide people with longevity to their careers, that people hit purple patches and have their moments - often without little attention being paid. finally, worth noting that creativity and value, being as it is related to personal perspectives, isn't something that it's easy to rely on other people's opinions for, and it appears in the strangest and most unlikely of places far more frequently than it appears in the most obvious / regular of places - other people's knowledge and opinion gets us some of the distance towards being aware of where we connect to something, but it also all too frequently connects to the biased view of what's collectively appealing to people here.

Caught up with Donnie Yen in LEGEND OF THE FIST: THE RETURN OF CHEN ZHEN (2010). The film resides quite comfortably in the realm of below average...in actuality, down there in the poor-to-fair range...one of the more uninvolving Hong Kong/China/Taiwan films I've watched recently. I had some hope as the opening prologue was rather intriguing and in hindsight they should have just made a movie about that particular chapter...Chinese laborers assisting allied troops in World War I Europe. Also, the opening action scene is probably the best there is in the film, but it suffers from being too sped up and, well, too Hollywood aka overedited and such (that same criticism applies to the remainder of the rather uninspiring action scenes in the film). The film itself is rather a mess. It is overproduced and feels artificial, and yet despite being overproduced it fails to create any air of authenticity. I thought the performances were...well, "passionless" seems a fair description, or maybe "disinterested"...or "in it for the paycheck". The film lacked heart, soul, and was dramatically inert...and it was a tedious 106-minute viewing experience. Everything felt stale...the storyline, the sets, etc.,...just been done to death already (not to mention...done better too). The tone too is confused...is it wartime intrigue suspense, comic book superhero, nationalistic melodrama...what it is is a film lacking an identity. And even technically speaking, and it isn't something I'm especially sensitive too, but I thought too that the dubbing was off in comparison to other Hong Kong/China/Taiwan films. LEGEND OF THE FIST: THE RETURN OF CHEN ZHEN was a bit of a snoozer and earns an "avoid it" in my book; I'd call it bottom of the barrel in comparison to other recent Chinese-language efforts in the genre.

Couldn't agree more! In fact, I took some flack here (as usual ) for making many of these very same observations earlier in the thread. Good to know I wasn't seeing things . . .

The dubbing in this is indeed some of the worst in recent memory, maybe even longer. They didn't even try to find voices to match the performers (my memory's vague on this now, but Shu Qi may have done her own, as she's a native Mandarin-speaker, but if so, it did little to aid her performance). As I've said repeatedly, without Alan Mak, Andrew Lau is a verifiable hack. I can see why he chose not to stick around for a Q&A after the screening at TIFF. Hell, even he was probably stunned that they rewarded such mediocrity with a premium screening slot.

(I haven't forgotten the ongoing discussion, by the way - just haven't had time to sit for a bit . . .)

Brian, just going back again to refresh my memory on your post regarding the film, it does seem we shared a very similar experience...and maybe someone really should take inspiration from that prologue scene and build upon the idea for a feature length film of some form.




My most recent viewing was South Korea's Oscar submission - A BAREFOOT DREAM (2010). It's a formulaic underdog sports film, yet being based on a true story, it also earns goodwill by giving the nation of East Timor some light on the international stage. At the opening, we learn that East Timor - after being ruled over by Portugal and later Indonesia - became the first new sovereign state of the 21st century in the year 2002. Upon this stage enters our lead - a Korean scoundrel in need of salvation - a path he eventually stumbles upon because of his soccer background which he utilizes by becoming a coach for the underprivileged East Timor pre-teen youth. As far as underdog sports films go, I thought it started out rather average (watchable enough, but not especially engaging or entertaining) but it did make steady progress as it went along and thus the second half would rank as good. Aside from the tug-at-your-heartstrings basis of the story and the look at a newly independent land still coming to grips with a troubled past and continuing internal strife, it isn't especially great cinema on any technical level, but it seems so well-meaning that I can't bring myself to be too critical of other aspects (not that they are poor but just that they aren't Oscar-level (at least to my eyes)). I can be a bit of a sentimental lug so the moments in the film that are engineered to play to the heart did strike home with me as a viewer. Though I might rank it as only average-to-good, A BAREFOOT DREAM is truly a sweet, feel-good movie...maybe that humble aspiration was the ultimate goal, if so it was successfully achieved.

In terms of Oscar chances, I do think POETRY would have given South Korea a better chance.

A note with regard to the Korean DVD, specifically a comment about the subtitles. Besides Korean, their is quite a mix of languages spoken in the film - English, Indonesian, and Japanese. So when these other languages are spoken there are burned-in Korean subtitles (as you would expect) at the bottom of the frame...so the selectable English subtitles during these parts then have to be displayed at the top of the frame (which of course means they would sometimes appear over character faces and such)...not a huge deal for me, but, in case someone might be finicky about stuff like that, I thought I'd mention it.

There was a U.K. DVD which released today - BLOOD OF WARRIORS: SACRED GROUND. From what I gather, this actually seems to be BANG RAJAN 2. I haven't followed the title too closely, but I think this might be the first English-friendly DVD for BANG RAJAN 2.

Reminder: the U.K. VAT rate changes tomorrow from 17.5% to 20%.

Has anyone shopped for BD's in Hong Kong? Can you recommend a good store or two? I'll be there a little after Chinese new Year.

Loved Kitano's 'Outrage'.

Really good.

Looking forward to seeing "The Man From Nowhere" - I hear it's a brutal revenge story. Domestic blu-ray/dvd comes out in March.

It is. It has everything but the kitchen sink. Gangsters, organ harvesting, orphans, indestructible US trained super spies, you name it. Not to mention one of the most brutal finales I've seen in recent years.

I think that might have been my problem with it. Way too many things going on and it really dragged in the middle before a pretty cool ending but I think it could have been tightened up a bit.

not asian cinema related but I notied flixtime plugged The Banishment, and I give it a secon thumbs up. Tremendous film. Athough, the director's previous one, The Return is even more marvellous. Saw them both recently.

i was wondering, is there a korean/HK dvd release of Man from Nowhere out yet? mainly because Well Go doesn't have the greatest of track records

None for the meantime but I read somewhere that this the CJ Entertainment's next Blu-ray release.

I think WellGo's record with contemporary releases is pretty good. Their Shaw films were interlaced, but I think the Ip Mans were decent.

Anyone have a link to where I can get the "Man from Nowhere" BD? I know Well Go is releasing it here in March but I don't want to wait until then unless I have to. I know Amazon already has it for pre order.

I'm looking forward to seeing 'Detective Dee and the Mystery of the Phantom Flame'. I'll be seeing it soon.