I'm trying to make sense of the Quebec Seville "2046" version I'm reviewing and I think it's a port (PAL to NTSC) of the french transfer. Back of the box states 129 min. and it only runs 122 min. I checked my R3 version and it runs 129 min. My friend checked the Sony version he's reviewing and it runs 129 min. I didn't notice any cuts so I assume the difference is PAL speedup. Would this assumption be correct? Another reason I think it's the french version is that it has a french 5.1 track and it sure as hell wasn't dubbed in Quebec.

Another question I have is can PAL to NTSC conversion process cause video issues? If so, is there something specific I need to look for? Or is the only downside of this process the PAL speedup? Transfer looked fine except for the occasional grain but I'm asking just in case.

Oh yeah, and the mandarin 5.1 track is screwed on that release. Dialogue is fine but nothing comes out of the rear speakers at all. Major difference with the 5.1 french track. Heck, the mandarin 2.0 track sounds better than the 5.1

One last thing for Svet (Pro-B):

Your review mentionns the aspect ratio is 2.39:1 I think this is incorrect. It's in between 1.85:1 and 2.35:1. around 2.10:1

eXcentris:

The easiest way for me to determine whether or not the transfer is PAL to NTSC is (in addition to a few other tests) to freeze the picture in faster sequences. If the transfer is poor PAL to NTSC you would see overlapping or "ghosting" of the image. The blurring you would notice is an excellent indicator what the nature of the print is. On my computer I can easily see "combing" as well if such is present but that is different...(for non-progressive transfers...or when the image is not transfered frame by frame).

As to the aspect ratio......I stand behind my comment...the image is slightly wider than 2.35:1 and is closer to 2.39:1 as I indicated. I don't have the Canadian disc to compare with but you suggest the opposite...going towards 1.85:1 which is not the wider aspect ratio of the two (2.35:1 and 1.85:1).

Ciao,
Pro-B

Ok thanks, I'll do that. I can do comparisons with my R3 copy.

Now you're confusing the heck out of me. "Wider" is what I see, i.e. it's wider than 2.35:1 but not as wide as 1.85:1 which means it's in between the two. On my widescreen tv, the black bars on top and bottom are about half the size of a 2.35:1 transfer. So how can this be 2.39:1? I'd expect 2.39:1 to have a narrower image than 2.35:1 with even bigger black bars.

Odd that the Canadian release would be cropped, particularly if other elements suggest it's a port of the French disc.

I've got the R3, and am quite satisfied, but does anybody know if there's a better NTSC transfer? (My monitor won't display native PAL, so I have to do PAL>NTSC conversion. Any PAL transfer is thus somewhat degraded.)

By wider I mean <---------> not ^ ......
V
(though now i see your point) I don' think however that the image is towards a 1.85:1 or 2.10:1....either way this is such a small detail that I think you could go by what the studio states = 2.35:1 no one is going to lose their sleep over it. I think the really big deal here is to find out whether or not this is indeed a PAL to NTSC port. Now, people might lose their sleep over such a transfer. Can you post a link for your review once you're done with it (I assume it will be the French site, correct?)

Ciao,
Pro-B

Look here for example Noel goes as far as 2.45:1 (Cantonese disc)
http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=55636

and the only other review I know of (US disc) is about 2.40:1
http://www.classicsondvd.com/2046.htm

As I said, the more important issue here is the transfer as I think that a lot of Canadians would want to know for sure

Ciao,
Pro-B

I really, really think that the US disc looks very good!!

Ciao,
Pro-B

Ok, here's what happened. I'M ON CRACK

I just tried a 2.40:1 disc and then a 2.35:1 disc and the first one has slightly less picture (i.e. bigger black bars) than the 2nd one. Then I put the "2046" disc and it's the same as the 1st one. So Pro-B is right. My humble apologies. When I was watching this last night, I was convinced for some reason that black bars on a 2.35:1 transfer were larger than what I was watching. Well they are not... I think I was just remembering how wide black bars were on my old 4:3 tv.

Damn, I wish I could just review films without having to review all that techy crap.

Yup, my review will be in French. Still working on it but it should be up on the site on Sunday. I will post a link to it then if you like.

I'll do more checking on the transfer tonight and saturday because I'm going to my buddy's house and he's reviewing the Sony so we can do a head-to-head comparison. I had asked to review "2046" but we were only supposed to get the Seville version. So I got that a couple of weeks ago but the Sony magically turned up last week and the boss asked my buddy if he wanted to review it. The bastard got the better release.

Note: The Seville version is strictly a Quebec release. The rest of Canada gets the Sony. Although both should be available online. Since the mandarin 5.1 track is screwed, I'm not going to recommend this to anyone unless they specifically want this for the french 5.1 track.

I'm sorry, I lent my french "Edition Collector Limitée" (the one with the steelcase) to a friend but on many french sites it's 122 or 123 min.
A film display rate is 23.976 FPS, the PAL one is 25 FPS and NTSC is 29.97 FPS, I'm not sure it's a question of speed.

The easiest way to compare, the french canadian dubbing has not a single word of english.
The french edition has a DD5.1 french, DD5.1 and DTS5.1 cantonese tracks.

129 - 4% = 123.84.

Assuming that the "129 min" and 122 min" numbers were probably rounded up or down, the discrepency you see fits with a likely PAL conversion.

note to eXcentris.
"2046" is in a mix of several languages. it's not exactly a "Mandarin" track as you say. there is a mandarin dub as featured on the Mei Ah disc but the film is primarily in Cantonese with scenes spoken in Japanese, Mandarin and perhaps, a tiny bit of English.

eXcentris:

No need to apologize (esp. to me)!!

Yes, thank you, would you please post the link when you're ready, I like your style a lot!!

Ciao,
Pro-B

Hi all,

I heard that the Sony has those ugly yellow subs. God, I really hate those; they are just way too visually distracting. Can anyone speak to how they are presented on 2046? Are they overlapping the image, or found only on the letterboxed area?

Thank you,
Eugene

So you are saying that even though the disc lists mandarin 5.1 and mandarin 2.0, that both mandarin and cantonese are spoken? Then how do you explain the fact theat the R3 has both a mandarin and a cantonese track?

You're right, the duration in theatres is announced around 129 min and the PAL version is between 122 and 123 min.

The original audio is mainly cantonese, the main spoken language in Hong Kong and Canton is cantonese and mandarin is the official and main language for China , Taiwan and Singapore. If you look at the VCD market in HK, the movies have the original cantonese audio on one channel and the mandarin on the other one, that's the easy way to touch the most audience as possible.

Yes, I know that except neither does it answer my question, nor does it clarify what tinlunlau stated.

The R3 has a cantonese and a mandarin track. The R1 states that the track is mandarin. Tinlunlau states that the film "2046" is primarily in cantonese, with some mandarin, japanese, and english. So, is this so-called mandarin track on the R1 a "true" mandarin track like the one on the R3, or was it labelled mandarin but it's really cantonese + some mandarin thrown in (plus of course the other languages).

Allow me to clear out a few of the issues being discussed. The R1 (US) disc lists the main audio track as being Cantonese and that is indeed the case. If a Mandarin track was created for this film I would clearly consider it a dub regardless of the few tiny bits of Mandarin that could be found on the original Cantonese track (in addition to Japanese). So, any other track being listed as the main audio choice for 2046 is clearly not what the director intended.

To answer an earlier question as well, the rather large and in my opinion very distracting subtitles appear under the image frame...

Ciao,
Pro-B

OK, kind of related, here's an issue I have with 2046. I have the original HK release, and one problem with the transfer I noticed was that many times when one shot cut to the next shot, I would notice a subtle horizontal shift (or jitter?) in the picture. I read a review of the disc in Video Watchdog magazine, and reviewer John Charles noticed that, but only when he stepped through frame by frame (I could notice it while the disc was actually playing). He mentioned that this may be because of a PAL to NTSC conversion, but I'm not sure. I think it might have more to do with the condition of the film print used, and how it was transfered. Does anyone else notice this with the disc or what would cause it? Does the US disc have this problem. It may be a minor issue, but I have to admit I found it distracting (and not the first time I've seen this with a HK film)

EDIT: I just read the dvdtimes review linked above, and the reviewer mentions it too, although he says it's "barely noticeable". I'm more picky I guess.

The Sony says cantonese? Ok, then Seville didn't know what they are doing and they listed the track as mandarin by mistake. Also, you have to be careful about what "the director intended" on HK films, because you can have both cantonese and mandaring speaking actors on a film. So you often have to dub in both languages.

No, since the R3 has the correct running time of 129 min. The R1 Seville version I have is definitely a PAL to NTSC conversion because it only runs 122 min. I didn't notice the problem you mention on the R3.

In original audio, Hong Kong actors speak cantonese, Ziyi Zhang speak mandarin and Takuya Kimura speak japanese, this track is called "cantonese". The mandarin audio you can find only on the R0 VCDish Mei Ah and the crappy censored R0 Face editions, which retains japanese and dubs cantonese, is for mainland chinese market. If you look at the different releases (french & UK R2, R4 and Sony R1) they're all mentioned as "cantonese". I noticed the Sony R1 is RCE, that could be a problem for "all region" players. If the transfer quality is good (I don't know about it), the R4 LE is(was) the best english friendly release to me, with DTS audio, lots of supplements and the black metal case.
http://www.ezydvd.com.au/item.zml/782696

You are correct! But this is not your typical HK release. In fact this is not a HK film to begin with

Ciao,
Pro-B

Ok the plot thickens. After I mentionned to him that the original 5.1 soundtrack on the Seville release was screwed, my friend listened to (parts of) the Sony R1 again and he now says it has the same problem (muted and/or no rear activity). The Sony has no other tracks that can be used for comparisons so one might think it's "normal". As I stated above, the difference with the French track and even the cantonese 2.0 track on the Seville is striking. Both tracks (mandarin and cantonese) on the R3 also don't exhibit this lack of activity from the rears.

Coudn't go this weekend, but I'll be going to my friend's house tomorrow or tuesday and we'll compare the soundtracks on the Sony, the Seville, and the R3 to get to the bottom of this.