Did anybody ever successfully got HKflix to price match with another website? How much were they willing to price match to?

Who cares? Much of their stuff is bootlegs anyway. And before anyone says, "but I didn't think they carried boots," please take a look at their site. They carry Red Sun, Pan Media, and a host of other bootleg "labels." I'm frankly surprised a stand-up site like Dvd Talk actually deals with them.

Not only that, but why not give the business to the company that has the lower price to begin with?

Thats true but for every bootleg Shaw movie they have the Celestial. They have tons of authentic movies. PanMedia and Red Sun are horrible companies but they are taking advantage of loopholes in the law and technically arent bootleg movies. If Shaw and some of these Asian companies get off their asses and release the movies in America then PanMedia and Red Sun would have to go OOP.

They are most definately bootlegs. Celestial owns the worldwide rights to the Shaw Brothers movies (including the English dubs), and those "companies" have not paid for the rights in any way shape or form.

Yup, there is NO LOOPHOLE. HkFlix has told this to customers and at one time posted it on their site so that they can calm customer fears. This is a lie. Celestial owns EVERYTHING related to Shaw Brother films including the original dubs,which they provide to companies that pay for them.

Now let me rant

As for Celestial or Shaws releasing dvds in the U.S., they can't be cause they don't make dvds. Celestial sells the rights to the films so that a company can make dvds. But that's largely been ruined by the amount of bootlegs out in the U.S. in stores as well as online. Celestial wasn't thinking about the U.S. market when they started because it was largely a given that there would be U.S. releases of these films. Originally, they took the wrong tact and wanted to sell the entire Shaw catalog to a single company. Now, do you know any company that would buy the rights to about 700+ Asian films that few people had ever seen, let alone knew about?? So, that didn't work and they made a deal with Merryaxe for about 50 of the films. The majority of the deal was actually TV rights, where Merryaxe landed the rights to 200 or so films for their never realized TV channel.

But while Celestial were still dealing for the rights to sell all the films as a package, bootleggers like Ground Zero and Pan Media (aka Red Sun aka Stiller) were getting their dvds into major department stores and throughout the internet. By the time they were done, they made sure that there was no way that a U.S. company could take a gamble with buying the rights to the films.

The bootleg market in chain stores and online have destroyed the legit kung fu dvd market in the U.S. The damage to the popular Shaw Brothers titles in the marketplace has eroded over years, not just a couple of months. For kung fu films in general,companies willing to release these things don't want to go to the effort. That's because it takes too much effort to track down the actual owners of the films, only to have labels like Groundzero troll online forums for early info on releases. Within a couple of weeks, they can have their bootleg on the market as the legit version is being prepped or just talked about. This undercuts any future legit release and considering it's usually about $5 more than the boot, the stores are always going to buy the boot. Which means, if the legit version does come out, the title is old news.

Think about this, if you're Best Buy or any store and you're told there's a new release of Legendary Weapons of Kung Fu coming out. The new release is widescreen, subbed and dubbed, BUT it's about $7 more than the version you've carried in store and online. What do you think they would do? Exactly what they did when Media Blasters came out with a legit version of Seven Grandmasters that I worked on, they didn't carry it in the store. Why? Because it was about $5 more than the bootleg dvds they currently had and they couldn't give up the shelf space for something they wouldn't sell as many of. Also, did you know that once a title is in a store like Best Buys' computer system that over say $9, Best Buy won't stock it again unless it's the 'I-found-a-robot-in-my-ass' special edition of I, Robot from a major studio?

The bootleggers were smart in that they release this stuff in huge bunches, I mean, about two years ago 12 Shaw Brothers dvds were released in something like a month. Nearly at that same pace, they have saturated the marketplace with kung fu films BEFORE anyone here in the US even had the rights to these films to fight them. Bootleggers also know that the labels have already spent so much on finding rights, creating extras, cover art, etc that if the dvds are sale priced lower than say $14.95 (in store sale price) they can't make money. This has happened enough, most labels willing to try have gotten tired of it and moved to Japanese films. Think about this, how many labels like Media Blasters, Image, etc have you seen releasing kung fu films lately? That's not saying you won't see some, but the majority are going to come from Fox because they can release the Fortune Star/Golden Harvest films for pennies. This is because it costs them nothing for the rights. Independent labels don't have that luxury.

By buying these boots,fans have supported people out to simply make money the cheapest way they can, steal. It's not just that fans say they'll buy these again if they're released legally, it's the way it LOOKS to legit companies. They have no promise that these sales will happen. Now no one wants to take a chance to release the Shaw stuff in this market. The only Shaws you MIGHT see this year, and will for sure early next year, will be horror and exploitation films which will be the best versions anywhere because the label cares. But all the other films, it will be a while. I know of three labels in talks, but the boots have scared them off. In a nutshell, all the boots that "fans" buy up in these stores, and at places like HkFlix, make damn sure you won't see legit, better versions.

Linn i see your point and I will say this. I only own about two of these "bootleg" dvds. I bought them early in my quest to collect the best of the genre and I didnt know any better (and just bought them through ddd and Best Buy). I recently bought a region 3 player and now i have the ABILITY to view the legit dvds. Most kung fu fans want the optimal version, the casual kung fu fan wouldnt even want 7 grandmasters. They just would want Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan movies (both of which can be had through legit Disney dvds). The only reason I bought 7 Grandmasters was because I heard it was a good movie on message boards. The casual fan isnt going to go through the trouble to seek these flicks. Give them the badly chopped version of Fist of Fury and they are fine. Im a niche customer that will pay for SPECIALTY products. Im not alone. If I want to see Heroes of the East I have two options: Spend 100 bucks on a dvd player for one movie or spend 10 bucks and get whatever version is in Mediaplay. It shouldnt have to be like that.

My point is this: I believe Celestial has made alot of mistakes. The first mistake is not making them Region 0. When I was a kung fu novice I would see a movie I liked from my childhood......Five Venoms for example.....I would then try to buy the movie via online and the first and best version would say: NOT PLAYABLE ON U.S. PLAYERS in big bold print. Immediately I would search for the 2nd best option.....which would usually be a PanMedia/DeltaMac version.

Linn, I bought the 7 Grandmasters version that you worked on. I bought it not because I knew that the other was considered a boot, but because it was the optimal version.(Good work on the notes but I think the movie was overrated lol) I bought the 2 disc set of Master of the Flying Guillotine for the same reason. Celestial needs to get on the ball and realize that there is a sizable population here that would pay 15 bucks for a quality version rather than 11.99 for a fullscreen dub. People are paying 15 bucks for friggin DodgeBall double dips and 25 for Seasons of Full House. There are plenty of people that would buy the "Ultimate Edition" of just about any video you put out there. Celestial needs to stop underestimating the American Kung Fu fan.

Keep up the good work Linn, and BTW, what new legit DVDs are being prepared for the U.S. market?

about the notes, I dug doing those. I would love to do more for Media Blasters, but it looks like no time soon. Glad to see you got the Flying Guilliotine set, good notes if I say so myself, but sorry about the print on that one. BTW, love the name. You from Atlanta? I'm about two hours away. As for your post:

Right, but that's the thing. If these films were sold properly with some marketing, people would want them. But it can't be done, it's too much effort for a genre that's considered "played out" by companies. You know, Seven Grandmasters was supposed to be followed up by two more releases. I'm still waiting....

That's right of course, but it's NOT the legit companies fault fan's have to seek these or any kung fu title out. It's the fault of the bootleggers and the stores that support them. Companies want to release these films. There's TONS of people at legit dvd companies that would love to release kung fu films in good versions. The guy that runs the Asian wing of Media Blasters used to distribute kung fu films in the 70s. He's a huge fan. The problem is NOT the fault of the companies in the U.S.

Why would they make them Region 0? The entire point of them putting them out on dvd in Hong Kong was to sell them IN Hong Kong. That is why they were region 3 and not dubbed. They ONLY had subtitles because Hong Kong was a Brittish colony and many brits(and people that want to learn English) still live there. If not for that, they would have no subtitles at all. Celestial sold dvd rights to Spain, Germany, France, U.K. Japan, etc. Considering Celestial owns the rights to the films, and were looking to sell the rights to every country to make their own discs, much the same as EVERY other company on the planet. To them, it makes no sense to make them Region 0 and it's completely understandable. Should Toei have made all their stuff with subs and region free? Fans would argue yes, but that wouldn't allow them to make money from the rights around the world. Also, if they did make the Shaw stuff region 0, that would allow the king of the loopholes, Tai Seng, to simply import the discs.

Here's the thing, it has NOTHING to do with Celestial. Celestial have shopped their titles around with all the dvd companies in the U.S. It's got nothing to do with them at this point. They are making an effort. Even offering to look for extra footage, lost dub tracks, etc. But you've got to realize, the markets for these discs are nowhere near the markets for Full House or Dodgeball. As I pointed out, have you seen ANY legit company releasing kung fu other than Fox, who can do whatever they want with the Fortune Star catalog for free? Tai Seng perhaps, but their stuff is largely imports and tv shows edited together. Companies don't want to touch this stuff. You would not BELIEVE how many legit deals I've seen killed because of this stuff, from Angela Mao boxsets, to 18 Bronzemen of Shaolin collections. This is a VERY real problem that fans just can't seem to get. These dvds do not sell well because a. they are a niche, and b. they can't get to the average joe.

It's not a matter of just someone buying it anymore, it's a matter of the stores giving them store space. Think about Seven Grandmasters, did you ever see it in Best Buy (and I'm using Best Buy as an example because that's the one that's been given to me)? But you see all of Media Blasters other releases there, why not kung fu? It's because the price point isn't what they want it to be for kung fu. They only stock kung fu if it's a small price point (7.99-9.99 or $20 or so for boxsets), or a popular title from a major studio with someone like Jet Li or Chan. Go to Best Buy and just look in the dvd section. Note how many bootlegs you see. IF it's anything like mine, about 60% of the section is bootlegs and the rest is major studio releases. It has been that way for years. For such a niche genre like Kung Fu, the companies HAVE to have store space, but no one can afford to release films with legit rights, remastered, etc for the cheap price bootleggers can. And that has NOTHING to do with the dvd companies.

If I told you, I'd have to kill you. But they are Shaw Brothers horror titles like I said. They are making sure they are the longest versions and there's going to be some titles that will get a release here before even in Hong Kong. I'm also working for a new dvd company out of Taiwan/UK who will be releasing Taiwanese kung fu films on dvd widescreen, subbed, and dubbed. Many will be first time releases in widescreen. Expect all this next year.

What I don't understand, using Seven Grandmasters as an example, is how can retailers like Best Buy continue to get away with selling boots of kung fu films if a legitimate version is available? Can't Media Blasters so anything about it?

I really hope someone would release the entire Sammo catalogue, I want to see Peedicab Driver among others. Quick questions: Will the upcoming Lone Wolf and Cub series be "legit", are their any plans to start selling some of the Woo classics in retail and do you think the Bruce box that comes out Tuesday is worth getting. THANKS.

BTW here is a great new DVD site they sell mostly legit stuff, and they have good prices/speedy shipping.

http://stores.moviesville.com/?sck=26191726

The problem was, the bootleg on tape in stores and dvd online had been released years ago. In that particular case, the film didn't sell that well on video and the price point was to high for Best Buy. And as I said, the problem isn't bootlegers releasing these films at the same time as the label, it's bootleggers (for example) releasing 32 or so titles the year before. If the dvd is already in the marketplace for $8, that's it.

Ron:

I live in Macon, Ga., the center of all Asian film knowledge in the state. LOL. As for your questions, I thought I made it clear. The fault for the lack of kung fu dvd from legit sources is with the bootleggars. They have successfully flooded the market with titles, in effect killing the chance that a legit label will touch the stuff. I was just talking about Mondo Macabro with a friend that works there last week, and they won't even touch kung fu films. They are releasing a couple, but only as double feature discs with cult Asian stuff. This is because it's not worth hunting down rights holders when a person can just get a company to print a few thousand and ruin the title by having it all over the internet. The margin for error with this stuff is very small.

When I said I was waiting for the follow up to Seven Grandmasters, I meant there was supposed to be a kung fu follow up. They had the titles ready and waiting and then the title sunk. Sooooo, no follow up. They MAY try again next year.

Um...the vcds have nothing to do with us. Like I said, these are releases for Hong Kong. There's not a thought given to U.S. sales of the films. They release vcds because vcds are the most popular video format in Asia. They outstrip dvd sales by an INSANE amount. As a matter of fact, there's titles they've released on vcd only simply because they didn't think dvds of the title would sell. A film is going to get a vcd release there before it ever gets a dvd release. So, to say again, the Hong Kong releases give no thought to the U.S. market, nor should they. I would love to say they did, but if you owned a business, why would you shoot yourself in the foot that way? I mean, Celestial doesn't make the dvds, they simply sold the rights to IVL. Why would they want the releases where the work everwhere and everyone can simply import them, with the company seeing no money from the importing of the titles? IF they were producing the dvds themselves, that would make plenty of sense. But since they're not, they simply sell the rights to IVL for Hong Kong, and then sell the rights everywhere else in the world.

But with the exception of the Pathfinder title, which they have gotten into Best Buy pretty regularly, all the rest are from large labels like Fox, Sony, etc. They have the clout to get anything they want in there. If you want to blame anyone BESIDES the bootleggers who created the problem, it would be retail. BTW, they did carry Master Killer and the rest, and still do on their website, it's just that when the titles quit selling, the computers kick them out of the stores. Which makes it even harder for anyone to get a legit version of something like Master Killer in there, because all they have to do is look at their former sales and say they had it, and it stopped selling.

As for the upcoming Lone Wolf and Cub series, it's from Animego and it's legit. Some of the John Woo kung fu films might start coming from Fox. I know that Last Hurrah for Chivalry is on the slate. And the Bruce box, wait and get the new Hong Kong Legends discs. They are doing some double disc sets with the new transfers.