Yes but i think our arguments are a bit unbalanced.

Thus far you've talked about what "normal people" hear and what "most viewers" are aware of. I would absolutely LOVE to hear exactly where your statistics come from. Is it personal experience? Because this really isn't the place to make such sweeping statements because of personal experience unless it is stated as such. If we're going that route, I would say that EVERYONE i have ever shown a PAL dvd to has heard the speed up but Im not going to say that EVERYONE will notice it. It's not MY place to say something like that. Some people will and some people won't. Apparently there is a small but vocal group on this board that are against it but that doesn't mean it is indicative of something larger. It just really annoys me that the people (like yourself) are so quick to point out that "it's no big deal" and that those who are informing are blowing something out of proportion. Do I comment on your "wailing?" And if I frightened people away, it's only with the truth. 4% speed up. I'm not saying ANY MORE than that. Are you making some money out of PAL DVD's that I'm not aware of?? Relax. I'm not telling anyone to NOT buy them. I'm telling them to be aware.

To some it is a big deal...to others, not so much. I'm not going to make any guesses as to how large or small each group is. But I will say that it IS important to inform those who may be just getting into this. I certainly didn't know.

And especially someone who is getting all bent out of shape about a Superman: The Movie regular cut. He may be excited that he finally found it...but may be very annoyed when he sees the transfer. And then completely disappointed when he hears something that he OBVIOUSLY enjoys so much at the wrong pitch.

Tone is one thing. Pitch is completely another. Apples and oranges. You can talk about tones changing all you want. But a 4% speed up will ALWAYS BE a 4% speed up. It will always be different.

That much, I gathered. His maniacal exuberance (and I mean that in a good way) leads me to believe that there may be more to his story. Just curious.

Numanoid,

I understand your point COMPLETELY. Yes, I too like the Special Edition, though I do think the Superman/Jor-El scene after the Air Force One rescue kinda slows down the pacing a bit (plus it was one of the first shots filmed as were all Brando scenes, and Reeve is much smaller there). Anyways, I like much of what the SE did for the movie. I also paid a decent price for a VHS copy of the 3:08 version as well as a VHS of the extended Superman II. Superman: The Movie was my childhood favorite. I just would like it on DVD for an occasional viewing. I want it on DVD for the same reason I want Star Wars on DVD in its original form. Lucas' "Ultimate Edition" may be 10x better than the original when we finally get them, but I would still like the ORIGINAL, UNALTERED trilogy on DVD, since it is the way I grew up watching them. Does Lucas owe it to me or anyone else to release them in their original form? No, I don't think so - any more than I think Richard Donner owes it to me to release the Superman theatrical cut. It is HIS movie after all. But, if I can get the original version on DVD some way, then I would like to have it. I own the laserdisc, the theatrical VHS, and the 3:08 version on VHS. I even went so far as to have my laserdisc trasferred to DVD by a company in town. Unfortunately, they did a HORRENDOUS job and it is virtually unwatchable. I don't own a laserdisc player any more (I bought the Superman LD soley for the purpose of transferring to DVD). Anyways, I hope you can see why I am interested in owning the theatrical version on DVD. Which will I watch more? The SE. It is one of the best discs out there IMHO. I just want the original for more *sentimental* purposes.

Cheers from a fellow fan!

Zack

EDIT - Yes, I am a completist (when it comes to the Superman films). I want all versions of S:TM... I also want a Donner edit of Superman 2 (but I still want the theatrical). Even though Superman 4 is admittedly crap, I would love to have the 134 minute cut of that - complete with the 1st Nuclear Man and all. So, yes, I must say that I am definitely a Superman completist. Take care.

Of course you would. When you bring people into your house and say, "Listen to how horrible this sounds. Isn't it awful? Oh my god, isn't it TERRIBLE?!!!!!", what do you expect them to say?

You have it precisely backwards. It is the people who get their panties in a bunch over PAL speedup that are the "small but vocal" group.

There are millions of people in the world who live in countries that exclusively use PAL video. There are also thousands (perhaps millions) of people in this country that import and watch PAL videos. A good number of people read and post on this forum and others like it. It is a very very small minority who complain that the pitch difference is unbearable.



Regarding Superman in particular, the NTSC DVD is the director's cut of the film, which has a completely reworked soundtrack that is substantially different from the original theatrical release (new sound effects, new music extensions, beefed up bass, and other significant changes). If someone is really a Superman purist, a slightly sped-up version of the original soundtrack would still be better than the wholly different soundtrack on the NTSC disc. Ever think of that?

Under most circumstances, the 4% speedup is beyond the range of human perception unless you are intimately familiar with how the material is supposed to sound from many previous listening sessions. The pitch difference may be audible, but most people are not bothered by it. As I said, you get used to it and your brain stops telling you that it is wrong.

Maybe you're an audiophile. Maybe you have perfect pitch. In which case the speedup would bother you. Fine, you're entitled to that. But what is the percentage of people in the world who have perfect pitch? One-tenth of 1%? Less?

You don't have to like the PAL speedup. If someone inquires on how a particular PAL DVD sounds, it is perfectly valid to inform and warn them about the PAL speedup. But to jump in on every single thread where PAL is mentioned and yell and scream, "Oh my god, PAL is horrible! You're head will explode if you listen to it!!!!", that's utterly ridiculous and it is quite tiring for the rest of us who are trying to have a reasonable discussion.

Listen, I have nothing against you personally. I just wish you would try to understand that yours is an extremist reaction that is not representative of most other people's experience.

I have several PAL discs and have never noticed any speedup. Neither has my brother and he's pretty discerning about those kinds of things. Of course I don't have a fancy setup and don't consider myself an audiophile/videophile.

Funny...but I don't tell them what the problem is going to be. I say..."watch this...and see if you notice anything." OR someone will want to watch WIll and Grace and they'll say, isn't this sped up? It sounds weird. I don't EGG them into a response. What sorta child do you peg me for?? lol You draw your own conclusions, sir.


umm...that's exactly what i said. We are a small group. lol Re-read. You get frustrated over nothing.


Yeah, smart ass. I thought of that. But personally, i'd rather have neither, if that were the case. The Superman:SE soundtrack isn't COMPLETELY new. The ENTIRE soundtrack doesn't sound completely different. A speed up will make it such. :P


I love your little frivilous facts. You throw them around as if you've done some sort of poll of this type of thing. Yeah, I'm an audiophile. And yes I'm also a trained singer/actor so a little thing like PITCH will throw me off. I wouldn't say my pitch is perfect but you dont' have to HAVE perfect pitch to hear a pitch difference. And just because people who notice it are of a smaller percentage, it doesn't make MY opinion or MY feelings any less valid than yours.

OK...this is AGAIN where I take offense. What EXACTLY about my posts is unreasonable? I made ONE tiny statement about PAL and you throw it out of proportion. I NEVER said "your head will explode" or even anything REMOTELY close to that. Is it tiring? Tough. Guess what? Don't read my posts. It's very easy to keep scrolling. I'm not jumping in every single thread...just the ones that peak my interest. And I'd love for you to point out "every single thread" that I've made myself a pain in. Again, ithis is all on you...your fault for letting it get to you. This thread didn't stop after my post. And you're the only one complaining or turning this situation into an argument. And all over one tiny post. FWIW, someone made a comment about it in the OTHER superman thread in DVDtalk. And guess what? I didn't tell him to...just in case you're a bit of a conspiracy theorist. :P

And when did I say otherwise.

This debate you're having is all in your head.

Please relax and move on.


As a side note, I'm going to see Superman on the big screen tomorrow night. Can't wait.

Does that make us all figments of his imagination, since you keep responding?

I don't know what it makes you.

But it seems like he's the only one complaining.

and let's be realistic...nothing he says is going to stop me from posting my thoughts. That's the point of this board. My aversion to PAL speed up is no different from other people's aversion to widescreen. Not the way it was intended to be seen.