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PQ loss in PAL->NTSC conversion players?

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PQ loss in PAL->NTSC conversion players?

Old 02-27-03, 07:39 AM
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PQ loss in PAL->NTSC conversion players?

With the recent announcement that the new Buffy R1 box will be 4:3, I'm all of a sudden in the market for a multi region player.

Question: Is there a noticeable PQ loss when viewing a PAL->NTSC converted picture versus what I'd see in an original NTSC? In other words, I'm not sure if investing in a new player and paying $100 for the DVD box sets would be worth it if I'm losing significant quality in the conversion.

The players I'm focusing on are the JVC XV-SA600 and the XV-FA900. If any of you have any thoughts about these players or recommendations of other similar products, I'm all ears.

If it matters, the unit would be hooked to my Pioneer SD-533HD5 TV via component connectors.
Old 02-27-03, 09:43 AM
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I have the JVC SA602 and I love it. I notice no loss in the picture quality whatsoever. Great player, highly recommend it.
Old 02-27-03, 10:11 AM
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Some players do a poor job of converting PAL to NTSC, in that they drop too many scan lines in the conversion and leave the picture looking squished.

The JVC SA600 is one of the better models that does it correctly. I'm not sure about the FA900.
Old 02-27-03, 10:34 AM
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Re: PQ loss in PAL->NTSC conversion players?

Originally posted by Rob Mason

Question: Is there a noticeable PQ loss when viewing a PAL->NTSC converted picture versus what I'd see in an original NTSC?
There is PQ loss in conversion, which may or may not be noticeable - it's mostly dependent on the player. The Mediamatics players conversion from PAL->NTSC looks as good as a native NTSC image. If you were to A/B a certain title, switching back and forth between native NTSC and converted images, you'd have a hard time telling the difference.
Old 02-27-03, 05:10 PM
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Um. What is PQ loss?
J
Old 02-27-03, 05:56 PM
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Originally posted by joelgee
Um. What is PQ loss?
J
PQ=Picture Quality. Sorry, I totally dislike people who abbreviate too much so I'm going to give myself a slap in the face.

Thanks guys...just the kind of info I was after.. (I should be fussing at you all...you've probably made me a poorer man .)
Old 02-27-03, 08:21 PM
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Ah. I was thinking it was some kind of detailed electronic term. But now that I know what you're talking about, I'll say this. I purchased a CH500 to test the regionfree waters. I didn't know what to expect when I popped in my first region 2 PAL DVD. If I didn't know it was other than a regular region 1 or 0, I would never know the difference.
Of course, I only own a 27" Zenith at the moment, but still . . .
J
Old 03-02-03, 06:39 AM
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Well, I had a brainstorm that I thought was going to save me a few hundred dollars. My DVD player is one of the original Sonys which is has a switch that disables all region blocking. But since it has no capability to convert NTSC to PAL, I thought its being region free would be of little benefit.

Then my brain started thinking (dangerous) again and it occurred to me that my High Def TV really shouldn't care whether its incoming signal is NTSC, PAL, or whatever. A Google search pretty much confirmed that...I read several comments that HD TVs can play PAL sources without a problem.

So I thought I might be in business without having to buy a new DVD player.

As a test case, I used some software I have lying about to convert an mpeg TV show I have (a Buffy, naturally) to PAL, then burn it to a VCD. I did this and the playback of the VCD on my computer looked damn near as perfect as a VCD can look. I took it to my Home Theater setup and cranked it up there. I was elated at first to see my PAL Buffy show indeed worked. But on closer inspection I noticed the people looked a bit thinner than usual and a substantial part of the top and bottom of the picture were missing.

Again, I confirmed that I do have the full picture when I view it on my computer.

Anyone know what might be going on? At this point I don't know whether to blame something in my VCD authoring abilities (which are pretty slim), my DVD player, or my HD TV. Guess I could hunker up and pay the $100 for Buffy Season 4 and see what happens, but as a cheapskate, that will be a painful experiment .
Old 03-02-03, 10:31 AM
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Well, here's my theory:

PAL has more resolution than NTSC. This means more scan lines. Your TV is capable of diplaying all of the PAL scan lines, but it was not actually designed for that specific appliction so it forces them into the same viewable space as an NTSC signal without conforming them properly to fit. This leaves the picture geometry looking wrong.

Sounds plausible, anyway.
Old 03-02-03, 10:53 AM
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No PQ loss with My Malata.
Old 03-02-03, 11:56 AM
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Originally posted by Josh Z
Well, here's my theory:

PAL has more resolution than NTSC. This means more scan lines. Your TV is capable of diplaying all of the PAL scan lines, but it was not actually designed for that specific appliction so it forces them into the same viewable space as an NTSC signal without conforming them properly to fit. This leaves the picture geometry looking wrong.

Sounds plausible, anyway.
Yes it does. I'm now wondering if this is a problem that only can be overcome by buying a DVD player which makes the conversion. In other words, are all those people who say they can watch PAL DVDs on their High Def TVs watching anorexic actors?

BTW, I did eliminate my VCD authoring skills as a possible culprit. I asked for someone on usenet to upload a PAL clip and someone kindly obliged. The VCD I burned with it had the same skinny people problem.
Old 03-02-03, 05:02 PM
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A DVD player that converts PAL to NTSC (correctly) seems to be in order.

You could buy an outboard decoder box, but they are expensive and tend not to be very high quality.
Old 03-12-03, 04:39 PM
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It seems like lot of people are happy with JVC SA600 or 602. It also sounds like one of the better code free players out there. So, I think I am going to go for it and buy this player. But, where's the good place to buy this. I've only seen this from HKflix.com.
Old 03-12-03, 06:36 PM
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Re: Re: PQ loss in PAL->NTSC conversion players?

Originally posted by paranoized
There is PQ loss in conversion, which may or may not be noticeable - it's mostly dependent on the player. The Mediamatics players conversion from PAL->NTSC looks as good as a native NTSC image. If you were to A/B a certain title, switching back and forth between native NTSC and converted images, you'd have a hard time telling the difference.
It's also worth mentioning that picture quality loss is really only likely to be seen on larger television sets. If your TV is only 27" diagonal, chances are you're not going to notice.
Old 03-12-03, 06:44 PM
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Originally posted by Rob Mason
Are all those people who say they can watch PAL DVDs on their High Def TVs watching anorexic actors?
In a word, no. On my U.S. model 60" Philips widescreen the Cyberhome DVD-500 did a capable job of converting anamorphic PAL to 480P NTSC. No one was squished-looking. : )

However, I recently discovered that this set (perhaps because Philips is a European company?) can actually display native PAL progressive (576P) with a little tweaking. So this gives me 20% greater resolution on my import DVDs and no conversion artifacts since the video isn't being converted. That and the fact that my new player has a much better deinterlacer than the Cyberhome means discs that used to look only O.K. now look fantastic.
Old 03-12-03, 06:51 PM
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FAQs

You may also benefit from reviewing the very-recent thread Best Pal to NTSC conversion?.... and, via the search function, please check out other threads with "NTSC" or "regionfree" in the title.

<small>[I think that soon as I shall have to revert to merciless closure of "duplicates" such as this one!]</small>


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Old 06-05-03, 04:44 PM
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Is the JVC XV-FA900 using the Mediamatics chip or not? It's supposed to do great PAL to NTSC, but I can't see anywhere saying it's using that chip. I gotta replace my Malata N966 and was looking at this player. I'll miss the X-Y scaling, but if it has the Zoom-Out feature maybe that'll do. Any advice?
Old 06-05-03, 11:53 PM
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The JVC 900 is basically the 600 with a 7-disc changer, yes it uses the Mediamatics chipset.
Old 06-06-03, 12:57 AM
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Ok - cool - so what about that zoom out? Is that about as good as the X-Y scaling?
Old 06-06-03, 02:03 PM
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If you're watching a PAL source disc being converted to NTSC by the player, and the PAL disc was from a VIDEOTAPE source, it will look like film because of the frame rate conversion. And in places where it's supposed to look like videotape, that's a major drawback. For example, the PAL R2/R4 Doctor Who discs that have had the VidFIRE process applied have the VidFIRE effectively negated by the PAL to NTSC conversion.
Old 06-07-03, 03:35 PM
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What is this 'VidFIRE' process?
Old 06-08-03, 06:06 PM
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Technical description of VidFIRE here:
http://www.purpleville.pwp.blueyonde...te/vidfire.htm

In brief terms, it's a process that is used on film-recorded material that was shot on videotape (there is a LOT of old television that was shot on video but only exists now as filmed copies). To restore the video "feel" to the film, it invents new frames to smooth motion and up the frame rate to that of the original videotape. It's quite remarkable.
Old 06-08-03, 10:05 PM
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MY JVC XVS500BK has now PQ loss, I have another DVD player the Toshiba SD-4800 for DVD-A if I ever want it. My mod player was done around July of 2001, no problems it even scales R2 & 4 into a anamorphic. My mod is a ICOS whatever that stands for, checked my OD and have 852 Hours on it for two years of use.
Old 06-09-03, 08:35 AM
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checked my OD and have 852 Hours on it for two years of use
Where do you check hours used? Does it save it through a power outage?
Old 06-11-03, 11:09 PM
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Any one here own or seen the newer JVC players inaction, the XV-N44 and XV-N55?

JVB has them listed as capable of doing PAL to NTSC. Are these players essentially same as the 500 and 600? Are they better?

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