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Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

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Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Old 07-13-14, 04:00 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Ehhhhh. I wouldn't call it selling out. They've allowed issues like this before. Cases like these I'd never directly blame CC on. If you piss off the guy that you brought on to help with the film coming onto BD... What happens?
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Old 07-13-14, 04:21 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Watching Devil Rides Out the other night, and especially the special feature on the CG tweaking afterward- it's become clear to me that the only kind of revisionism I can tolerate is that which is done by fans or contracted third parties.

When the actual filmmakers revisit their films decades later their intention isn't to hew to the established feel or sense of the film- it's generally to change it entirely. Whether it is adding material that completely destroys the original pacing (Apocalypse Now Redux, Star Wars SEs, The Warriors) or wholesale changes to the visual look of the film (Thief, Dracula, most of Ridley Scott's catalog)- the seeming intention of these changes is to make the film feel new or different.

Contrast that with the approaches taken by Paramount in updating the effects for TOS or the comments by the effects team in Devil Rides Out special feature. These people care about trying to preserve the distinct feel of the original film while smoothing out the edges. The point is to try to make the alterations feel as seamless as possible.
These directors OTOH are doing almost everything possible to pull their film out of the era it was made in and tarting it up so that it passes for something contemporary...as if being of it's era was something to be ashamed of.
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Old 07-13-14, 04:26 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by Solid Snake View Post
Ehhhhh. I wouldn't call it selling out. They've allowed issues like this before. Cases like these I'd never directly blame CC on. If you piss off the guy that you brought on to help with the film coming onto BD... What happens?
Well, you've bruised an ego / called his judgment into question. Which isn't necessarly a bad thing, when *your company* has been in the business 30+ years and should know a few things about how films looked 30 years ago! It shouldn't be need to be a power-play, but Criteron should be pedantic in its insistence of sticking to original theatrical color timing at all costs -- preservation and archiving of the films as artifacts of their times. Directors' current-day color timing preferences may be indulged by releasing another edition of the film, if it would make that director happy...

Give us, the paying viewers and fans a choice, dammit!
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Old 07-13-14, 04:30 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

I'm pretty sure the upcoming UK Blu-ray of "Thief" will look exactly the same as the Criterion.
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Old 07-13-14, 07:38 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by zyzzle View Post
Damn, between THIEF and now, SCANNERS, it seems Criterion has sold out. They've become yes-men to the whims of so-called "Director-approved" tinkering.
This is consistent with Criterion's policy all along. Criterion has always deferred to the wishes of the original filmmakers in how they want their movies presented, for better or worse. That's why The Last Emperor is cropped and a number of other films are only available in "Director's Cut" versions in the Criterion Collection.

The problems with these discs are not Criterion's fault. Criterion made a good-faith effort to have the original filmmakers consult on and approve the product. If the filmmakers want to damage their old movies, that's on them. It is not Criterion's place to stand up to or pick fights with the filmmakers.
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Old 07-13-14, 08:08 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
The problems with these discs are not Criterion's fault. Criterion made a good-faith effort to have the original filmmakers consult on and approve the product. If the filmmakers want to damage their old movies, that's on them. It is not Criterion's place to stand up to or pick fights with the filmmakers.
Your point is well taken, and probably correct. Picking fights should be too petty for Criterion to engage in.

BTW: What does the original cinematograper have to say about the tealization of THIEF? Did his input come into the picture at all? Or, is the director's word in Criterion's 'consultation' tantamount to Zeus striking down the lightning bolt?
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Old 07-13-14, 08:19 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
This is consistent with Criterion's policy all along. Criterion has always deferred to the wishes of the original filmmakers in how they want their movies presented, for better or worse. That's why The Last Emperor is cropped and a number of other films are only available in "Director's Cut" versions in the Criterion Collection.

The problems with these discs are not Criterion's fault. Criterion made a good-faith effort to have the original filmmakers consult on and approve the product. If the filmmakers want to damage their old movies, that's on them. It is not Criterion's place to stand up to or pick fights with the filmmakers.
Exactly. There are dozens of Criterion releases where one could legitimately question the presentation. Days of Heaven and Malick's approved color timing is one that comes to mind. And it's not just on the director approved releases either. Their color Melville releases take heat in some circles and they also have a habit of boosting black levels on most, if not all of their b/w titles.

The difference with Thief and Scanners are that they are relatively recent, sort-of mainstream films by directors with cult followings. And more specifically they are the kind of titles which appeal to a certain segment of the online audience who obsess over screenshots and such. I'm not saying they're right or wrong. I'm just saying that the volume is turned up a little louder on the complaints for these two. Criterion hasn't changed a thing with regards to how they operate.
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Old 07-13-14, 09:28 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

I noticed the color-timing change on Criterion's release of DAYS OF HEAVEN too, but it does not seem as egregious as that applied to either SCANNERS or THIEF. The Malick film now looks too dark and orange to me, but again, I can live with it. It still shouldn't have been tinkered with.

Certainly there are those freaks who endlessly obsess over screenshots. The problem of the THIEF Criterion 'reimagining' transcends screenshots alone. It now places the film as an anachronism: a 1981 theatrical release spiffed up, modernized, and gentrified -- catering to the ideals and whims of the director whose 2014 personal choice has been foisted upon a company and the public. The biggest problem of all is that we now have a technically-faultless, superior 1080p encode of a bastardized product.
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Old 07-13-14, 10:56 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Enough with this shit.

Just ordered this BD.
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Old 07-14-14, 03:00 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

It's a great BD. Not a damn thing wrong with it in the technical. It's just Mann's revisionism that fucks it up. At least Thief looks good with the teal. It's not right but it ain't an ugly movie.

TGTBTU hurts my eyes for example. No goddamn way did Leone ever intend that film to hit the yellow and black areas of color so harshly. God damn you, BD tinkerers.
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Old 07-14-14, 10:29 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by Solid Snake View Post
It's a great BD. Not a damn thing wrong with it in the technical. It's just Mann's revisionism that fucks it up. At least Thief looks good with the teal. It's not right but it ain't an ugly movie.

TGTBTU hurts my eyes for example. No goddamn way did Leone ever intend that film to hit the yellow and black areas of color so harshly. God damn you, BD tinkerers.
Granting what Leone did or did not intend, I can guarantee for a fact that he intended the sound to be mono, not a downmix of 5.1 created after his death. Why the fuck they can't still lossless mono on there is a fucking mystery to me. Why is it so hard?!
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Old 07-14-14, 10:43 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by hanshotfirst1138 View Post
Granting what Leone did or did not intend, I can guarantee for a fact that he intended the sound to be mono, not a downmix of 5.1 created after his death. Why the fuck they can't still lossless mono on there is a fucking mystery to me. Why is it so hard?!
It's because they insist on shoving the extended cut down our throats. There isn't a true mono mix for those extended scenes since those were newly recorded with Eastwood and Wallich. Fox should of included both versions (mono on the theatrical cut) without fucking with the colors, little DNR, and a 4k scan.

As far as THIEF goes, I still haven't watched it but what little I saw of the Blu Ray looks phenomenal and the teal does give it a "heist" picture tone. I'll make a better assessment when I watch it. I sympathize with old school fans of the movie who don't like the teal. I would be pissed if Mann screwed with the colors on Manhunter (though he screwed with it plenty on editing). If the revisionist action really bothers someone then my advise would be to do what I did with Star Wars on Blu ray; don't buy it.
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Old 07-14-14, 11:04 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by Why So Blu? View Post
Enough with this shit.
If people love the DVD coloring I'm sure there a lot of them available now!

Last edited by hdnmickey; 07-14-14 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 07-14-14, 11:26 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

I watched the BluRay again on Saturday night and the screenshots do not represent the viewing experience. The image was much brighter and less teal on my setup. There isn't a teal haze running throughout the entire film, while some shots do indeed look cool, blacks and skin tones both looked natural. I don't know if those screenshots were botched, but they are much, much darker and more teal than the movie looked on my television. Either way, it looks great.

This scene:



Looked more like this on my setup:




As for the original theatrical presentation, people on the internet were up in arms over the Terminator remaster until some videos surfaced from the 80s with James Cameron referencing the cyan look of the film. I'm going to reserve judgment for the time being. I wonder what people think of this production still uploaded on IMDB in 2011: http://www.imdb.com/media/rm21557235...mi_mi_all_sf_2
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Old 07-14-14, 11:39 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by DaveyJoe View Post
I watched the BluRay again on Saturday night and the screenshots do not represent the viewing experience.
They rarely do, yet look at all those treating them as gospel. My copy arrived over the weekend and I expect similar results.
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Old 07-14-14, 11:41 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by DaveyJoe View Post
As for the original theatrical presentation, people on the internet were up in arms over the Terminator remaster until some videos surfaced from the 80s with James Cameron referencing the cyan look of the film.
You're going to have to direct me to that video. James Cameron's signature look in the 1980s was a "steely" blue color palette. Blue is not the same color as cyan or teal.
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Old 07-14-14, 11:46 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Well, I found this: http://www.terminatorfiles.net/forum...hp?f=27&t=5217
And a post there says:
in the "Other Voices" documentary, James Cameron talks about Arnold's first day and says:
...Arnold walked in the first night and it was in the post-burn makeup, where his eyebrows were gone, and his hairline was back, and he had this kind of punked-out haircut, and we slammed him in the police car and we started shooting and we got that Adam Greenburg lighting with that cold, kind of cyan glow from below, and when we saw dailies the next day we just went, 'Oh, baby! This is... This is great!'
That's all I could find with a quick google search.
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Old 07-14-14, 11:52 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
You're going to have to direct me to that video. James Cameron's signature look in the 1980s was a "steely" blue color palette. Blue is not the same color as cyan or teal.
Terminator is different than Aliens. Terminator has specific scenes that have it, you could tell it was lit that way. Aliens had the knobs turned on the restoration.
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Old 07-14-14, 11:55 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

^^ That's the one, also there's this from Torsten Kaiser:

To be specific on THE TERMINATOR the cyan / bluish tones WERE very much part of the color palette, which was - on the original prints - in the DeLuxe process. But as opposed to the BD - on 35mm these were mostly COLOR / SHADE SPECIFIC and not as global as seen in many shots. However: note that the color re-timing, ideally, is done shot by shot and a simple setting of that LUT is not just applied to all shots with a single touch of a button.

In some shots of the new BD, the emphasis (saturation) on cyanish tones is a bit too much (but specifically night scenes were lit in cyan[!] so it has to be there), while in most, though not perfect for the reasons I stated the timing made are still pretty darn good, and on yet on few others again photochemical effects such as in the discotheque are (yet again) are, unfortunately, not fully realized to the original portential (see below).

Bottom line: DIs can be made cheaper, different, more precise in many ways, yes. Specific photochemical attributes, however, can still not be achieved digitally on many levels. That beauty is tied only to film. Note also that color processing on both analogue and digital fronts is also a matter of choice by the colorist and/or the people who ordered/supervised it. Before finalizing production - and after. The latter being the more complicated. A lot of people here would not believe how many films they have seen and grown to love in this specific "color palette" that are - in truth and reality - ABSOLUTELY WRONG in color representation/registration. Welcome to my world.

I'm pretty sure a that someone who actually handled the prints will know more than people that haven't seen them.
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Old 07-14-14, 12:03 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by DaveyJoe View Post
I wonder what people think of this production still uploaded on IMDB in 2011: http://www.imdb.com/media/rm21557235...mi_mi_all_sf_2
That is interesting.
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Old 07-14-14, 01:05 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by DaveyJoe View Post
I'm going to reserve judgment for the time being. I wonder what people think of this production still uploaded on IMDB in 2011: http://www.imdb.com/media/rm21557235...mi_mi_all_sf_2
Since none of the other images have that tint, I'd assume the lighting in the scene was causing it, not pervasive color timing.
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Old 07-14-14, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Ringmaster View Post
It's because they insist on shoving the extended cut down our throats. There isn't a true mono mix for those extended scenes since those were newly recorded with Eastwood and Wallich. Fox should of included both versions (mono on the theatrical cut) without fucking with the colors, little DNR, and a 4k scan. As far as THIEF goes, I still haven't watched it but what little I saw of the Blu Ray looks phenomenal and the teal does give it a "heist" picture tone. I'll make a better assessment when I watch it. I sympathize with old school fans of the movie who don't like the teal. I would be pissed if Mann screwed with the colors on Manhunter (though he screwed with it plenty on editing). If the revisionist action really bothers someone then my advise would be to do what I did with Star Wars on Blu ray; don't buy it.
They had seamless branching on the Alien set, there isn't any reason it can't be on this one, IF there was, there isn't any reason they can't splice it in with the downmix. And there isn't any reason for there to be "mono restoration" credits at the end either, much less for them to have no replacement program after that. As regards T1, it's even worse. Granting that the teal coloring is correct, there still isn't ANY earthly excuse for the lack of mono there. Wouldn't even take up that much space. I didn't buy the Star Wars set of TGTBTU, but a vote not to buy is hardly a vote for an un-messed-with edition in the future, especially on nice properties like Criterion discs. And there isn't usually much of an alternative either.
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Old 07-14-14, 04:08 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by DaveyJoe View Post
I watched the BluRay again on Saturday night and the screenshots do not represent the viewing experience. The image was much brighter and less teal on my setup. There isn't a teal haze running throughout the entire film, while some shots do indeed look cool, blacks and skin tones both looked natural. I don't know if those screenshots were botched, but they are much, much darker and more teal than the movie looked on my television. Either way, it looks great.

This scene:



Looked more like this on my setup:




As for the original theatrical presentation, people on the internet were up in arms over the Terminator remaster until some videos surfaced from the 80s with James Cameron referencing the cyan look of the film. I'm going to reserve judgment for the time being. I wonder what people think of this production still uploaded on IMDB in 2011: http://www.imdb.com/media/rm21557235...mi_mi_all_sf_2


Not surprising. This is one of the few forums that I frequent where the majority of members don't even calibrate their sets properly. I remember when the fellowship of the ring nonsense was aired out then I got the BD and watched it and saw that it was a bunch of horse shit. I expect similar results with the Thief BD.
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Old 07-14-14, 10:17 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by Why So Blu? View Post
Not surprising. This is one of the few forums that I frequent where the majority of members don't even calibrate their sets properly.
I'm working on it, I have the disc, it just looks like it'll be more time-consuming than I anticipated !
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Old 07-15-14, 02:03 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by hanshotfirst1138 View Post
I'm working on it, I have the disc, it just looks like it'll be more time-consuming than I anticipated !
I'm so used to calibrating my sets and friend's sets - I'd do it in about 20 minutes or less. I've internalized it after all these years.
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