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Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Originally Posted by thetao
(Post 12085645)
This is similar to my perspective. Limited, 3000-copy runs exist solely as a sales gimmick by Twilight Time. Universal and Sony and whoever else, isn't holding a gun to their head. Otherwise, how has Criterion (which also releases major catalog titles) manged to operate unscathed? I'm sure the studios would love for TT to sell as many copies as they possibly can, as it's likely more money for them (contract depending). I don't begrudge TT their sales model, I just want to see movie fans (and for that matter TT) discuss the situation HONESTLY.
I don't have a problem with $35 Blu-rays. (I wish they were cheaper, but things cost what they cost.) I own a handful of import DVD's that were roughly as much. I do have a problem with somebody telling me I need to buy now. I have just a small Blu-Ray collection, and Wild at Heart is the first TT title I've seriously considered. But I'd already budgeted ~$150 for this credit card cycle, for OOP DVD's that (for the most part) I am just now realizing exist. I might be willing to pay $35 for Wild at Heart in 2015 or 2016, but...oh right...they'll be gone in two months. I'll likely debate Wild at Heart until the question becomes moot. IMHO, limited edition runs ultimately hurt everybody. If we're agreed that catalog titles, whatever the format, sell very poorly today, I would much prefer a crowdsourcing or bounty-style model. Maybe a studio provides a list of titles they are considering releasing and asks fans to vote for their favorites. The most popular get moved to another list that requests a credit card number, and once they've reached 1000 buyers (or whatever threshold), a batch is made. If a particular title isn't popular enough, then maybe it goes MOD or is offered to an outside studio or doesn't get made at all. When a title sells out, it goes back on the credit card list, and another 1000 cards makes another batch. Yes, there's some back-end web development involved, but that's largely a one-time fee. This seems like the best of all worlds, keeping titles in print and sparing me from at least a few DVD-R's. Comments? |
Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Originally Posted by Why So Blu?
(Post 12085825)
I think the've already gone into detail as to why Criterion operates "unscathed."
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Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Originally Posted by nitin77
(Post 12085723)
As for Wild at Heart, the 1st UK release has a botched 5.1 track and the 2,d UK release doesnt even have a 5.1 track. Blacks are also off. I dont know if the TT release addresses those issues.
Supplements are recycled from the domestic DVD. |
Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Originally Posted by thetao
(Post 12085645)
If we're agreed that catalog titles, whatever the format, sell very poorly today, I would much prefer a crowdsourcing or bounty-style model. Maybe a studio provides a list of titles they are considering releasing and asks fans to vote for their favorites. The most popular get moved to another list that requests a credit card number, and once they've reached 1000 buyers (or whatever threshold), a batch is made. If a particular title isn't popular enough, then maybe it goes MOD or is offered to an outside studio or doesn't get made at all. When a title sells out, it goes back on the credit card list, and another 1000 cards makes another batch. Yes, there's some back-end web development involved, but that's largely a one-time fee. This seems like the best of all worlds, keeping titles in print and sparing me from at least a few DVD-R's. Comments?
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Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Originally Posted by thetao
(Post 12085645)
This is similar to my perspective. Limited, 3000-copy runs exist solely as a sales gimmick by Twilight Time. Universal and Sony and whoever else, isn't holding a gun to their head.
In the cases of the discs that prove surprisingly popular, like Fright Night or Christine, yes the "Limited Edition" angle is a sales gimmick. They could license extra copies if they wanted to pay for them. However, let's say that they license an extra 3,000 copies for Fright Night. How can you be certain that the market for that movie isn't really maxed out at 3,500 people total? Twilight Time would wind up sitting on an extra 2,500 discs they needlessly paid for. With the marketing incentive of the "Limited Edition" gone, they'd have a hard time moving them. It's not worth the risk. 3,000 is the cut-off point that Twilight Time has decided they're comfortable licensing. Maybe that means that they lose out on extra sales for a small handful of titles, but sticking to a "Limited Edition" model for all titles benefits them overall. I'm sure the studios would love for TT to sell as many copies as they possibly can, as it's likely more money for them (contract depending). I don't begrudge TT their sales model, I just want to see movie fans (and for that matter TT) discuss the situation HONESTLY. If we're agreed that catalog titles, whatever the format, sell very poorly today, I would much prefer a crowdsourcing or bounty-style model. Maybe a studio provides a list of titles they are considering releasing and asks fans to vote for their favorites. The most popular get moved to another list that requests a credit card number, and once they've reached 1000 buyers (or whatever threshold), a batch is made. If a particular title isn't popular enough, then maybe it goes MOD or is offered to an outside studio or doesn't get made at all. When a title sells out, it goes back on the credit card list, and another 1000 cards makes another batch. Yes, there's some back-end web development involved, but that's largely a one-time fee. This seems like the best of all worlds, keeping titles in print and sparing me from at least a few DVD-R's. Comments? |
Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Originally Posted by Gizmo
(Post 12085859)
As much as people razz Criterion about Armageddon and The Rock being on DVD, they probably sold a ton of copies which helped finance artsy-fartsy films they love. It's why I know I'll always, eventually, get my Wes Anderson films on Blu-ray ;) They need a "major" release to sometimes help with the poorer selling titles.
I was going more about what Josh brought up earlier. It's branding. Criterion has been in the business for 30 years. They've had a while to tweak their business model. LD, DVD, and now Blu-ray, and even digital platforms. |
Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Originally Posted by zyzzle
(Post 12085696)
Right... Thankfully torrents obviate the "limited edition" model, and may give some of us who "miss" the limited opportunity to buy a FRIGHT NIGHT or CHRISTINE the chance to see the films in 1080p glory. A 'last resort', but one nonetheless.
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Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12085935)
Rather than advocate for illegal torrents, how about we point out that there are also legal alternatives for watching some of these movies in HD, such as Netflix, iTunes, VUDU, or foreign Blu-ray editions?
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Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12085935)
Rather than advocate for illegal torrents, how about we point out that there are also legal alternatives for watching some of these movies in HD, such as Netflix, iTunes, VUDU, or foreign Blu-ray editions?
Originally Posted by slop101
(Post 12085978)
Agreed. The brazen entitlement in some of these posts is a bit off-putting.
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Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Thunderbirds ... are ordered (and Rollerball) !! woot-woot!
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Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12085935)
Rather than advocate for illegal torrents, how about we point out that there are also legal alternatives for watching some of these movies in HD, such as Netflix, iTunes, VUDU, or foreign Blu-ray editions?
When streaming options meet or surpass the quality of a good physical media Blu-ray encode, *then* they are viable options. Not a second before. My opinion is tempered in the frustration factor which others mention. I'm fed up with artificial limitations, like region encoding, etc and climb through the hoops, however gray the legality may be, to get around such artificial limitations. |
Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Originally Posted by nitin77
(Post 12085723)
Alfredo Garcia has been confirmed to be from the same master used on the Spanish and Italian releases but the TT release has a higher bitrate transfer. Whether that matters depends on many things, including personal preference.
FWIW, I own the italian release and think it has no compression issues worth noting, most the issues worth mentioning are probably source related. As for Wild at Heart, the 1st UK release has a botched 5.1 track and the 2,d UK release doesnt even have a 5.1 track. Blacks are also off. I dont know if the TT release addresses those issues.
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12085908)
Twilight Time's edition of Wild at Heart looks pretty similar to the UK imports for video, maybe some slight tweaks, but the audio is a huge improvement. It's a proper 5.1 track with the dialogue centered, and has much better dynamic range than either import.
Supplements are recycled from the domestic DVD. |
Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
It didn't take too long to make my decision. I played my first Twilight Time order: Wild at Heart, Alfredo Garcia, Leave Her to Heave and Hard Times.
I know there has already been enough bitching about price, but I wish shipping wasn't quite so expensive considering the price you're already paying for the discs themselves. I know, I know. I've been spoiled by free shipping over the years, but still, I would think an offer of free shipping for orders over $100 wouldn't be so bad. |
Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12085930)
I don't begrudge TT their sales model, I just want to see movie fans (and for that matter TT) discuss the situation HONESTLY.
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12085930)
You have some ideas here. Maybe they'll work and maybe they won't. Are you daring enough to start your own movie label to test them and find out?
FWIW, if TT had managed to include the deleted scenes from the "David Lynch Lime Green Set" with their Wild at Heart Blu-Ray, that buy would have been a no-brainer. :) |
Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Originally Posted by thetao
(Post 12086687)
I don't suspect I was the only person carrying a misunderstanding and hope the point continues to be repeated: TT are fully in the driver's seat.
To me, putting a limit on these titles is good business. Many healthy companies have come a cropper by over-pressing titles that have not sold. I guess it must be incredibly tough to call which of the titles will sell out quickly but in the case of a title like CHRISTINE (it sold out the night it was made available for pre-order – a month before release) there would have been people who missed the boat if they’d forgotten the pre-order date or thought they’d still get one a few days after. As the company’s custom-base increases have you thought about the possibility of taking certain titles above your self-imposed limit of 3000? The 3000 unit number is mostly dead-on for the vast majority of catalogue titles, and many will struggle to sell that amount over a three-year period. We thought carefully about that number and it is solidly based on studio market research despite what the naysayers think about how many hundreds of thousands would sell if only the studio put it out at a $5 price-point yada-yada-yada. The reality is blindingly obvious — if the studios thought that, believe me they would be doing it! But no, they aren’t and they won’t be in future. You will start to see more limited editions coming from other labels (it’s already started), and this is not rocket-science. It’s simple mathematics, limited pressings, short-term licenses, benefit the labels, the studios, and the consumers who actually have discernment about what they purchase. We were the first because I’ve been doing limited edition soundtrack albums for the studios these past two decades…it is merely logical, that as the majors back away, boutiques move in with low-overhead and stream-lined business models…it is a long-term benefit as soundtrack fans have realized…blu-ray collectors just ha e to accept their hobby isn’t mass-market…it’s niche…and there’s nothing wrong with that. They will just have to adjust their habits accordingly. The aforementioned CHRISTINE and other titles such as FRIGHT NIGHT and THE FURY all sold out soon after release, have you had to reevaluate the types of films that you go after in order to continue selling through quickly? Seems that the horror titles are the quickest to sell out but I guess you don’t want to pigeonhole yourselves by releasing too much of it, right? When CHRISTINE sold out in a day it surprised everyone, and it is not helpful to have a one-day sell-out…and to that end we have imposed buying limitations on all titles going forward that look like they might be very popular. In reality though, it’s only the genre titles that have this effect on buyers, the vast majority of the releases are available for a period more than sufficient for people to buy them…(for example, our two new SINBAD releases.) And as to whether we release more horror films is an unknown quantity…we don’t particularly pursue them, and we certainly wouldn’t want to focus on them…if one or two crop up like the forthcoming release of THE BLOB (1988) next fall, then we’ll treat them just like we do any other title. |
Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Given the way that Twilight Time has structured their licensing deals, I assume 3000 units was the most risk they were willing to take on for a Blu-ray.
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Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12085908)
Twilight Time's edition of Wild at Heart looks pretty similar to the UK imports for video, maybe some slight tweaks, but the audio is a huge improvement. It's a proper 5.1 track with the dialogue centered, and has much better dynamic range than either import.
Supplements are recycled from the domestic DVD. |
Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Originally Posted by nitin77
(Post 12087008)
Josh so black levels similar?
The oldest (out of print) French Blu-ray from BAC Video has the best video transfer overall, with decent black levels and nowhere near as much dirt or speckling on the source. Unfortunately, it also has forced French subtitles, and Twilight Time's audio is much better. |
Josh Z: he does all of the hard comparisons so we don't have to!
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Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12087237)
The oldest (out of print) French Blu-ray from BAC Video has the best video transfer overall, with decent black levels and nowhere near as much dirt or speckling on the source. Unfortunately, it also has forced French subtitles, and Twilight Time's audio is much better.
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Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
@Adam Tyner:
Thanks for the further background. To plagiarize hanshotfirst1138, you read interviews with DVD studio owners so we don't have to. :) |
Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Originally Posted by thetao
(Post 12088299)
Is there a definitive review of the 2010 French re-release? While I haven't gone digging, DVD Beaver apparently never acquired a copy.
The 2010 French release is from Universal, and is comparable to the UK release of the same time, except that all on-screen text has been replaced with French. So "22 Months, 18 Days Later" now says "22 Mois, 18 Jours Plus Tard." (Regular dialogue subtitles can be disabled, however.) Video quality is otherwise similar, and the 5.1 track still has the error where dialogue comes from all three front speakers. The older French release from BAC Video was released in 2008. Long out of print. Forced French subtitles you can't remove (though some Blu-ray players can shift their position down out of the frame, which is what I did). Video is better - cleaner source elements, solid black levels. The 5.1 track is very weak. The last time I watched it, I thought that the dialogue was correctly centered, however when I cued up a few scenes last week it sounded wrong. Not sure why I didn't catch that before. There is still no definitive Blu-ray edition of the film, though Twilight Time has by far the best audio. Dialogue is properly centered, and when the opening titles fly onto the screen, they really slam with bass. |
Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Originally Posted by thetao
(Post 12085645)
This is similar to my perspective. Limited, 3000-copy runs exist solely as a sales gimmick by Twilight Time. Universal and Sony and whoever else, isn't holding a gun to their head. Otherwise, how has Criterion (which also releases major catalog titles) manged to operate unscathed? I'm sure the studios would love for TT to sell as many copies as they possibly can, as it's likely more money for them (contract depending). I don't begrudge TT their sales model, I just want to see movie fans (and for that matter TT) discuss the situation HONESTLY.
I don't have a problem with $35 Blu-rays. (I wish they were cheaper, but things cost what they cost.) I own a handful of import DVD's that were roughly as much. I do have a problem with somebody telling me I need to buy now. I have just a small Blu-Ray collection, and Wild at Heart is the first TT title I've seriously considered. But I'd already budgeted ~$150 for this credit card cycle, for OOP DVD's that (for the most part) I am just now realizing exist. I might be willing to pay $35 for Wild at Heart in 2015 or 2016, but...oh right...they'll be gone in two months. I'll likely debate Wild at Heart until the question becomes moot. IMHO, limited edition runs ultimately hurt everybody. If we're agreed that catalog titles, whatever the format, sell very poorly today, I would much prefer a crowdsourcing or bounty-style model. Maybe a studio provides a list of titles they are considering releasing and asks fans to vote for their favorites. The most popular get moved to another list that requests a credit card number, and once they've reached 1000 buyers (or whatever threshold), a batch is made. If a particular title isn't popular enough, then maybe it goes MOD or is offered to an outside studio or doesn't get made at all. When a title sells out, it goes back on the credit card list, and another 1000 cards makes another batch. Yes, there's some back-end web development involved, but that's largely a one-time fee. This seems like the best of all worlds, keeping titles in print and sparing me from at least a few DVD-R's. Comments? |
Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
You're asking for a whole lot of penny ante, retail bookkeeping out of a large corporation.
Not gonna happen. I'm with the minority that feels many of you are just spoiled. You came of age in an era where Home video release were cheap and disposable (constantly being double and tripled dipped by the studios) and now the pendulum is swinging back in the direction it existed before. When I was a kid, home video meant 24 minute Super-8 digest versions of a handful of movies. $50 (in late 70's and early 80's dollars). A cheesy pan and scan videotape was $80+. A decade later, when I finally started to collect laserdiscs the prices were $30-40 for many catalog and new releases, and $50-$125 for a criterion. $30 + s/h for a 1080p limited edtion? Good grief, that's still a ridiculous bargain in my eyes...if it's a film you dearly care about. If, OTOH, it's just something you casually are interested in- skip it. you can live without it. TT is doing just fine as far as I'm concerned. |
Re: The Official Twilight Time Blu-ray Thread
Yes, I bought my share of the $40 to $50 laserdiscs -- over 200, and also remember paying $300 for 64 kb of memory, incidently. However, the point is that most of us now feel that media has reached a commodity, disposable level. For it to go back to $30+ for a catalog title hurts, and we hope that other less greedy models may be implemented, like what thetao suggested. I think it makes a lot of sense, from a 'giving back to the fans' standpoint. I know it's a pipe dream, since corporations these days are just about making money. But, his plan might possibly have worked in the innocent days of the late '70s and early 80s when home video was a more niche format.
We're spoiled now with Hidef, 1080p, etc, just as we're also spoiled with 8 GB 4Ghz quad-core processors at commodity prices. Many of us are applying Moore's law to the home video, and these limited release compaies like TT and, now Scorpion releasing, are proving that it doesn't work that way. I'm slowly beginning to accept the TT model (ie, be grateful for what you're getting at any price). It's still hard to go back to a time of 'expensive' media releases, though. Most of the under-30 crowd *can't* go back -- they were never there in the first place, so there has been a backlash. |
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