Star Wars
#326
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
re: Star Wars
They may be popular, but there's little chance these 3D re-releases are going to gross as much as the 1997 SEs did.
[snip]
Re-releases are seeing diminishing returns, especially as home video has improved over the decades. Back in 1997, most people had only seen Star Wars at home via P&S broadcast or VHS, with only stereo sound. Now there's the OAR surround-sound DVD releases, and soon Blu-ray.
[snip]
Re-releases are seeing diminishing returns, especially as home video has improved over the decades. Back in 1997, most people had only seen Star Wars at home via P&S broadcast or VHS, with only stereo sound. Now there's the OAR surround-sound DVD releases, and soon Blu-ray.
The originals may or may not be "kiddie fare," but if they are, they're kiddie fair of much higher quality that I can still enjoy as an adult. It's like the difference between Pixar films and the Shrek series.
The 1997 SEs saw diminishing returns with each film. Star Wars SE grossed $138 mil, while Empire grossed less than half that, at $67 mil. Jedi grossed only $45 million. It's possible the year-long gaps are designed to let fan interest regenerate after each release, instead of quickly exhausting interest.
Other fans may have never intended to see either of the sequels. My uncle saw Star Wars literally dozens of times during its theatrical release in 1977, and was excited when it was re-released. He has seen, but doesn't even care for, the others and hasn't bothered to see the prequels. I don't know how representative he is of audiences at large, of course.
Also, you may be overestimating the speed at which these 3D conversions can be done at, especially if you want a quality job done. If the films were released closer together, it could mean having to push the release date of the first film back a few years, to say 2015 instead of 2012.
In any event, given how much of the prequels were shot with digital elements in the first place, it seems much easier to just replace that content with 3D content. The original trilogy, of course, used actual sets, props, models, etc. and would require far more extensive work. I won't be surprised to see a lot of shots completely replaced with new, digitally created versions--especially the space scenes, where actual people aren't really visible anyway.
#327
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#328
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re: Star Wars
Maybe if enough people stay home for Phantom Menace, they won't do the others. I'm doing my part . . .
I refuse to give George Lucas any money to watch Star Wars in 3D.
I refuse to give George Lucas any money to watch Star Wars in 3D.
#330
DVD Talk Legend
re: Star Wars
If anything, the storylines of the prequels are more sophisticated, with political intrigue and subterfuge (which kids love). However, the movies themselves are crappier.
#332
DVD Talk Legend
#333
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
How is it possible to convert a live action film to 3D without it looking like crap?
Or, maybe I should say: IS it possible to covert a live action film to 3D without it looking like crap?
#334
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
re: Star Wars
- visual effects - far more advanced in the prequels
- dialog - actually pretty even throughout all six films
- stunts - more dynamic in the prequels
- production design - hard to evaluate, since the prequel look is derived from the original features
- costuming - nearly any given item from Queen Amidala's wardrobe outshines everything except Leia's iconic gold bikini
- cinematography - more kinetic in the prequels; aided, of course, by the volume of CGI shots more easily manipulated than models, etc.
- music - like production design, it's hard to evaluate since so many themes were recycled
#335
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re: Star Wars
How do you define "quality" in the context of comparing and contrasting films? I used the term "sophisticated" to refer not just to story elements, but:
- visual effects - far more advanced in the prequels
- dialog - actually pretty even throughout all six films
- stunts - more dynamic in the prequels
- production design - hard to evaluate, since the prequel look is derived from the original features
- costuming - nearly any given item from Queen Amidala's wardrobe outshines everything except Leia's iconic gold bikini
- cinematography - more kinetic in the prequels; aided, of course, by the volume of CGI shots more easily manipulated than models, etc.
- music - like production design, it's hard to evaluate since so many themes were recycled
I'll just touch on the first two. I prefer the effects of the originals. Models and such look better to me than the too clean/fake CGI look. And the dialogue of the originals are way better, IMHO, of course...
#336
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re: Star Wars
The prequels were and are horrible, horrible films. The original trilogy was one of the most influential and significant film series in history, and Lucas, in his hubris, has broken it beyond repair.
#337
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
re: Star Wars
I, for one, welcome this fresh and inspired contribution to the general discourse.
#339
DVD Talk Legend
re: Star Wars
- visual effects - far superior in the original trilogy
- dialog - written and delivered better in the original trilogy
- stunts - more dynamic and related to story in the original trilogy
- production design - far superior in the original trilogy
- costuming - more believable in the original trilogy, less is more
- cinematography - Wide open scenes in the original trilogy have greater power, less is more
- music - way better in the original trilogy
#340
DVD Talk Legend
re: Star Wars
I used the term "sophisticated" to refer not just to story elements, but:
- visual effects - far more advanced in the prequels
- dialog - actually pretty even throughout all six films
- stunts - more dynamic in the prequels
- production design - hard to evaluate, since the prequel look is derived from the original features
- costuming - nearly any given item from Queen Amidala's wardrobe outshines everything except Leia's iconic gold bikini
- cinematography - more kinetic in the prequels; aided, of course, by the volume of CGI shots more easily manipulated than models, etc.
- music - like production design, it's hard to evaluate since so many themes were recycled
- Acting - James Earl Jones is Darth Vader, despite being just a voice over. Add in the stellar performances in Empire, and the original trilogy owns over the wooden perfomances in the prequels (which I mostly blame the director for).
- Story/Pacing - Although I described the plots for the prequels as more "sophisticated", the execution of said plots is overly convoluted with uneven pacing. In contrast, the OT have simpler plots, but are well executed with breakneck pacing.
As for the things you did comment on:
- visual effects - overdone in the prequels. Lucas likes to fill the frame with stuff, which makes it busy and unfocused. The opening starship dogfight in Ep III left me bored, while the Death Star trench battle in Star Wars is tension-packed. The pod race in ep 1 looks like a video game (which it soon was).
- dialog - Empire trumps all others in terms of dialogue, which means OT wins by default. Even then, I think the prequels had more cringe-inducing dialogue in each film than the other two originals combined.
- stunts - Does it count as a "stunt" if it's on a green-screen with wires? The stunts were probably more "dynamic" in the prequels, but I'm not sure if they were as realistic or as interesting.
- production design - gritty and real in the OT, shiny and fake looking in the prequels.
- costuming - I think you're forgetting that in the OT, the aliens and droids count as costuming, versus the CGI creations of the prequels. Plus, the OT has so many iconic outfits, like Leia's "headphone" hairdo, and the aforementioned bikini. I can't even remember any of Amidala's outfits. Also, don't forget Darth Vader's costume, which originated in the OT and beats out any of the other Darth's costumes in the OT.
- cinematography - I don't think being "more dynamic" equates to "better." The shot of Luke staring out at two suns on Tatooine is completely static, yet stays burned in your brain.
- music - As pointed out, the prequels recycled a lot of themes. However, the original sequels did the same, yet added new themes that are instantly recognizable, like the Imperial March and Love Theme in Empire. Aside from Dual of the Fates, which is excellent, I can't think of any other recognizable themes originating from the prequels.
#341
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
re: Star Wars
I'll put as much analysis in it as you.
- visual effects - far superior in the original trilogy
- dialog - written and delivered better in the original trilogy
- stunts - more dynamic and related to story in the original trilogy
- production design - far superior in the original trilogy
- costuming - more believable in the original trilogy, less is more
- cinematography - Wide open scenes in the original trilogy have greater power, less is more
- music - way better in the original trilogy
I compare quality with the terms "better" or "worse". Whether one film is more "sophisticated" than the other in certain areas is only tangentially related to the actual quality of the film. As I pointed out with the storyline example, something can be more "sophisticated" without actually being better.
It's interesting you left off some pretty important factors that people use to judge a film:
- Acting - James Earl Jones is Darth Vader, despite being just a voice over. Add in the stellar performances in Empire, and the original trilogy owns over the wooden perfomances in the prequels (which I mostly blame the director for).
- Story/Pacing - Although I described the plots for the prequels as more "sophisticated", the execution of said plots is overly convoluted with uneven pacing. In contrast, the OT have simpler plots, but are well executed with breakneck pacing.
As for the things you did comment on:
- visual effects - overdone in the prequels. Lucas likes to fill the frame with stuff, which makes it busy and unfocused. The opening starship dogfight in Ep III left me bored, while the Death Star trench battle in Star Wars is tension-packed. The pod race in ep 1 looks like a video game (which it soon was).
- dialog - Empire trumps all others in terms of dialogue, which means OT wins by default. Even then, I think the prequels had more cringe-inducing dialogue in each film than the other two originals combined.
- stunts - Does it count as a "stunt" if it's on a green-screen with wires? The stunts were probably more "dynamic" in the prequels, but I'm not sure if they were as realistic or as interesting.
- production design - gritty and real in the OT, shiny and fake looking in the prequels.
- costuming - I think you're forgetting that in the OT, the aliens and droids count as costuming, versus the CGI creations of the prequels. Plus, the OT has so many iconic outfits, like Leia's "headphone" hairdo, and the aforementioned bikini. I can't even remember any of Amidala's outfits. Also, don't forget Darth Vader's costume, which originated in the OT and beats out any of the other Darth's costumes in the OT.
- cinematography - I don't think being "more dynamic" equates to "better." The shot of Luke staring out at two suns on Tatooine is completely static, yet stays burned in your brain.
- music - As pointed out, the prequels recycled a lot of themes. However, the original sequels did the same, yet added new themes that are instantly recognizable, like the Imperial March and Love Theme in Empire. Aside from Dual of the Fates, which is excellent, I can't think of any other recognizable themes originating from the prequels.
One specific point I also want to discuss is cinematography. You're definitely right about that iconic shot; it's probably the image synonymous with Star Wars for a lot of us. On the whole, though, I feel like the camera was much more involved with the film in the case of the prequels and more distant in the original trilogy. You're absolutely right that being more dynamic does not equal "better," but that brings us back to my original question: How do we actually define the "quality" of a film?
A final note: I'm spit-balling all this because I find it interesting and I sincerely thank those who've elected to play along so far. I'm not arrogant enough to think I have the answers; I'm humbly looking for the questions.
#342
DVD Talk Legend
re: Star Wars
I agree with some of this, and recognize that some of it is entirely subjective. The one point I have to ask about, though, are the stunts. The most dynamic fight scene in the original trilogy would be either of the two Luke/Vader duels (not counting the imagined one on Dagobah). Don't get me wrong: I love watching them, but next to the two-on-one duels of Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul or Obi-Wan & Anakin vs. Dooku, they're practically static.
Also, there's the matter of how the fit into the films themselves. The Obi-Wan vs. Darth Vader fight in Star Wars may not as "dynamic" as the prequel fights, but it's filled with thematic resonance (master vs. fallen apprentice), which makes it compelling to watch. The fights in the prequels by comparison are rote "oh, you're the new bad-guy, let's fight."
I deliberately omitted acting because that's the most common thing most movie fans discuss. But since you bring it up, I readily agree. Although I loved what Liam Neeson did as Qui-Gon, and Christopher Lee as Dooku (though I'm biased as a fan of his anyway). And I think Ewan McGregor was very interesting as Obi-Wan, though Sir Alec Guinness's performance in A New Hope has always been my favorite role in the entire saga. He made not just Obi-Wan, but the entire Star Wars galaxy, fascinating.
I really found Liam Neeson's performance to be barely there. I mean, I know he's supposed to be zen, but he just seemed sleepy. And Jake Lloyd was unbearable. Again, I blame this largely on the director. Lucas seems to have either lucked out with the original cast for Star Wars, or he forgot how to direct actors in the decades between his directing jobs.
I like the point you bring up about how the "manual" (for lack of better term) style of making visual effects and crafting stunts is a much "truer" (again, for lack of better term) form of art, against which their CGI and harness-driven counterparts are--and feel--artificial. I actually agree with this, for what it's worth. I remember watching From "Star Wars" to "Jedi" - The Making of a Saga repeatedly because I was so captivated with how they invented all those amazing elements. When I watch the prequels, I'm conscious that it was all done on green screen and finished with computers; there's nothing fascinating about them.
That said, my problem isn't really with the CGI and digital manipulation in the prequels, but its execution. Lucas cuts and pastes different takes from different actors into one scene, but doesn't bother getting good takes to begin with, or worry about the chemistry and interaction between characters. He makes the CGI objects shiny and new, which is easier to do in CGI than grime and wear, making everything look sterile and un-lived-in in the prequels. And he packs the screen with visual information, but doesn't take the time to make sure it's stuff that carries the story forward, instead of just being distractions.
One specific point I also want to discuss is cinematography. You're definitely right about that iconic shot; it's probably the image synonymous with Star Wars for a lot of us. On the whole, though, I feel like the camera was much more involved with the film in the case of the prequels and more distant in the original trilogy.
That said, I don't really hate the cinematography on the prequels. Despite the numerous complaints against them, I really haven't heard an argument against the cinematography. I just don't feel it's leaps-and-bounds better than the OT.
Here's what I'm driving at: How does one actually quantify or define how "good" a movie is?
#343
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#344
re: Star Wars
I was going to say the same thing. The appeal of Star Wars has carried over generations but not the disdain for "the new stuff".
When I try to tell my nephews I don't like the "new ones"....they just don't get it. It's Star Wars to them. Just like Clone Wars is. They see NO delineation.
#345
DVD Talk Limited Edition
re: Star Wars
George Lucas: Please just go away. We are sick of your stupid, shitty ideas, and you've done enough harm to (what was once) a good thing already.
#346
DVD Talk Godfather
re: Star Wars
I was going to say the same thing. The appeal of Star Wars has carried over generations but not the disdain for "the new stuff".
When I try to tell my nephews I don't like the "new ones"....they just don't get it. It's Star Wars to them. Just like Clone Wars is. They see NO delineation.
When I try to tell my nephews I don't like the "new ones"....they just don't get it. It's Star Wars to them. Just like Clone Wars is. They see NO delineation.
They have seen a few episodes of the Clone Wars which seem to have higher production values than the prequel trilogy.
#347
re: Star Wars
My girls (4 & 6) love the original trilogy, but I haven't let them see the new ones. I don't want what you mentioned happening to them. They have asked when they get to see the one with Jar Jar though.
They have seen a few episodes of the Clone Wars which seem to have higher production values than the prequel trilogy.
They have seen a few episodes of the Clone Wars which seem to have higher production values than the prequel trilogy.
For a while I tried to explain to them why I liked some and not others, and they just were not getting it--star wars is just cool to them. And I realized, hey, the kids like it, wtf, let them like it.
MY son however, has seen only the OT. If we flip by the prequels on Spike (they seem to be on every weekend lately!) he may see a lightsaber and say "Dad! Star Wars!". I say, "not really bud. Want to watch Jedi again?"
#348
DVD Talk Legend
re: Star Wars
Now that they've announced the 3D versions I'm sure at some point he'll announce that was his original vision for them. I am so over these I've taken off my wanted list completely. Not that I wouldn't pick them up at some point but haven't seen them in ages and have no interest in them right now.