DVD Talk Forum

DVD Talk Forum (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/)
-   HD Talk (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/hd-talk-55/)
-   -   Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/hd-talk/569867-why-hdmi-1-4-doesnt-make-sense.html)

Supermallet 02-23-10 02:02 AM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AckxOWz868k&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AckxOWz868k&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Rubix 02-23-10 04:18 AM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 
how does 1080i 3d look compared to 1080p 3d? they still look the same pq wise correct?

iNCREDiPiNOY 02-23-10 04:27 AM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 
How about 1.3 to 1.4 HDMI adapter converter.

Yavin 02-23-10 11:16 AM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 
This article is a bit confusing. Almost makes it sound like the new 3D BD spec will work with current HDTVs, as long as you have a PS3.

But upon reading the article linked to within that one, this does not appear to be the case. It does make it sound like an HDMI 1.4 cable is not required, if you already have a HDMI 1.3b cable though.

RocShemp 02-23-10 11:35 AM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 

Originally Posted by Suprmallet (Post 10013659)
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AckxOWz868k&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AckxOWz868k&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

:lol: Okay, that was great.

Shazam 02-23-10 11:47 AM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 
http://www.virginmedia.com/images/gr...rs_431x300.jpg

RocShemp 02-23-10 11:54 AM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 

Originally Posted by Rubix (Post 10013708)
how does 1080i 3d look compared to 1080p 3d? they still look the same pq wise correct?

I would assume the end result would be the same as sending a standard 1080i image to a regular 1080p TV but it's too soon to tell.

As I said, they've only just figured out how to do 720p3D with no apparent issues. They've yet to figure out how to do 1080i 3D or 1080p 3D (or any of the other weird variations they've been babbling about).

Gizmo 02-23-10 12:16 PM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 
http://hdguru.com/3d-hdtv-and-hdmi-explained/1336/


(February 22, 2010) The Internet is replete with bad information regarding 3D ready Blu-ray player/ surround sound receiver/ Full HD 3D TV (FHD3D) HDMI connectivity. Unfortunately, HD Guru is not immune from this: we recently passed along misinformation received in an email from an official Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) spokesperson, for which we apologize.

To set the record straight HD Guru recently met with Waheed Rasheed, director of product marketing for Silicon Image, the company that created HDMI and its related standards. He provided us with clear and precise information regarding the recently published HDMI standards as they relate to 3D products.

Full HD 3D

Transmitting uncompressed Full High Definition 3D (FHD3D) signals (defined as 1920 x 1080 resolution for both the left and right eye [each frame]) requires connecting a 3D Blu-ray player to a FHD3D TV using a suitable HDMI cable. The FHD3D signal’s bit rate is 6.75 Gbps (gigabits per second). The HDMI 1.4 standard’s maximum bit rate of 10.2Gbps is identical to that of the older HDMI 1.3 standard.

The 1920 x 2205 pixel at 24Hz (see drawing above) FHD3D signal differs from any previous HD or 3D signal. 1920 is the number of active pixels across each frame while 2205 pixels is the vertical resolution of two Full HD frames plus 45 pixels of active blanking separating the FHD left and right frames.

As the drawing illustrates, the signal places the two frames in a configuration known as “over/under.” This is the first and currently only FHD3D TV standard signal and because it is totally new, no non-FHD3D display can accept it.

This is important, as some consumer electronics writers speculate incorrectly that a modification will allow legacy 120Hz and 240Hz LCD displays to handle Blu-ray FHD3D content.

That said, Mitsubishi’s 2007, 2008 and 2009 legacy rear projection sets can be adapted to play these new FHD3D signals. Mitsubishi announced and demonstrated at the 2010 CES a converter box that down-converts the Blu-ray FHD3D HDMI signal (albeit at half resolution [960 x1080] for each eye). The converter box is due to arrive around the same time the first 3D capable Blu-ray players ship this spring.

The new HDMI 1.4 standard also permits another “over/under” 3D configuration at the lower 720p HD resolution (1280×720) at either 60Hz or 50 Hz Blu-ray player output.

All 3D Blu-ray players output FHD3D movies at 24 fps. Both LED LCD and CCFL backlit FH3D HDTVs internally convert the signal to sequential display (alternating left and right frames) at 240Hz (synchronizing with shutter glasses that provide 120 views per second for left and right eyes [120+120 =240]. All announced FHD3D plasma displays internally convert the 3D Blu-ray movie signals from “over/under” to frame sequential at 120 Hz for 60 views per second for each eye.

Surround Sound Receivers

Unfortunately, your current HDMI equipped surround sound receiver will not pass the new FHD3D signal and no upgrades are possible according to both Sony and Denon. Why? A system called EDID (Extended Display Identification Data) currently handles communications between your TV, receiver and source components and it works fine. However, when your new 3D television communicates that it is an FHD3D television, the receiver will not understand because the 3D ID was not part of the standard when your receiver was designed. The receiver will shut off the HDMI signal and your new 3D TV screen will go black.

Your only solution will be to replace your receiver with a new one that’s 3D compatible or use one of a number of available “work arounds.” You can still use your current HDMI receiver with Panasonic’s upcoming 3D Blu-ray player because it includes a separate “audio only” HDMI output. Connect the video HDMI directly to your 3D set and the audio HDMI to your receiver to decode Dolby TruHD or DTS lossless codecs. No other manufacturer has announced this feature. You can also use coax or optical digital “outs” from the 3D Blu-ray player but you won’t get lossless audio and you’ll still have to connect the 3D Blu-ray player directly to the 3D HDTV to see the picture.

3D HDMI Cables

Will your existing 1.3 HDMI cables handle the FHD3D signal or will you have to replace them? The only way to really know is to connect it and see if they work. Some will, some won’t. If the cable can handle the 6.75 Gbps FHD3D data rate, it probably will.

There are two types of legacy 1.3 HDMI cables: Category 1 and Category 2. The former must be able to handle at least 2.25 Gbps signals, meaning it may not be able to handle FHD3D signal . Category 2 HDMI 1.3 cables handle signals up to 10.2 Gbps. These will certainly work.

The HDMI 1.4 standard has optional features for both TV and source component makers, including an audio return function and Ethernet connectivity (which allows one Ethernet signal to be carried to other connected components via HDMI if the maker includes this 1.4 feature).

To streamline HDMI cable selection Silicon Image dispensed with the old numerical system and replaced it with the following categories (source: hdmi.org website):

Standard HDMI Cable
The Standard HDMI cable is designed to handle most home applications, and is tested to reliably transmit 1080i or 720p video – the HD resolutions that are commonly associated with cable and satellite television, digital broadcast HD, and upscaling DVD players.

Standard HDMI Cable with Ethernet
This cable type offers the same baseline performance as the Standard HDMI Cable shown above (720p or 1080i video resolution), plus an additional, dedicated data channel, known as the HDMI Ethernet Channel, for device networking. HDMI Ethernet Channel functionality is only available if both linked devices are HDMI Ethernet Channel-enabled.

Automotive HDMI Cable
Designed for internal cabling of vehicles equipped with onboard HD video systems. Tested to a more robust performance standard, and capable of withstanding the unique stresses of the motoring environment such as vibration and temperature extremes.

High Speed HDMI Cable
The High Speed HDMI cable is designed and tested to handle video resolutions of 1080p and beyond, including advanced display technologies such as 4K, 3D, and Deep Color. If you are using any of these technologies, or if you are connecting your 1080p display to a 1080p content source, such as a Blu-ray Disc player, this is the recommended cable.

High Speed HDMI Cable with Ethernet
This cable type offers the same baseline performance as the High Speed HDMI Cable shown above (1080p video resolution and beyond), plus an additional, dedicated data channel, known as the HDMI Ethernet Channel, for device networking. HDMI Ethernet Channel functionality is only available if both linked devices are HDMI Ethernet Channel-enabled.

Groucho 02-23-10 12:34 PM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 
Well, it's 0.1 better isn't it?

Snowmaker 02-23-10 12:49 PM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 
http://photos1.socializr.com/19/92/53/199253545m.gif

RocShemp 02-23-10 01:31 PM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 
Yeah, I got a similar email a few minutes ago from a friend of mine. It sucks as I was previously under the impression than 1.3 receivers would be unaffected. :(

The only silver lining is the PS3. The FHD3D bitrate is fired at 6.75gps so it's well under the 10.2gps that hdmi 1.3 handles. So, supersmart Blu-ray Disc players that are software driven (like the PS3) can make the transition with no problems.

Well the only other good news for me is that all my hdmi 1.3 cables are category 2 and cost me around $4 each at monoprice. :banana:

akrate69 02-23-10 06:32 PM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 

Originally Posted by GizmoDVD (Post 10014344)
http://hdguru.com/3d-hdtv-and-hdmi-explained/1336/

Your only solution will be to replace your receiver with a new one that’s 3D compatible or use one of a number of available “work arounds.” You can still use your current HDMI receiver with Panasonic’s upcoming 3D Blu-ray player because it includes a separate “audio only” HDMI output. Connect the video HDMI directly to your 3D set and the audio HDMI to your receiver to decode Dolby TruHD or DTS lossless codecs. No other manufacturer has announced this feature. You can also use coax or optical digital “outs” from the 3D Blu-ray player but you won’t get lossless audio and you’ll still have to connect the 3D Blu-ray player directly to the 3D HDTV to see the picture.

I have to applaud Panasonic for this move. One less piece of equipment people have to upgrade.

Gizmo 02-23-10 06:52 PM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 

Originally Posted by akrate69 (Post 10015184)
I have to applaud Panasonic for this move. One less piece of equipment people have to upgrade.

Ahh, very cool indeed :up:

RocShemp 02-23-10 09:15 PM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 
That was cool of Panasonic.

But it sucks that receiver manufacturers are using EDID as an excuse. A simple firmware update could easily add the 3D ID as accepted in the receiver's EDID memory.

Supermallet 02-24-10 12:40 AM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 
So even if I buy the adapter for my TV, I still can't use HDMI for audio with my current receiver? Cripes.

Josh-da-man 02-24-10 12:53 AM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 
What a fucking mess.

Bottom line: for 3D you'll need a new television, a new blu-ray player, a new receiver, and possibly new HDMI cables.

To borrow a line from Jules Winfield: "Do I look like a bitch?"

RocShemp 02-24-10 01:15 AM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 

Originally Posted by Suprmallet (Post 10015795)
So even if I buy the adapter for my TV, I still can't use HDMI for audio with my current receiver? Cripes.

You can get audio. It just wont pass video. That's why the Panasonic BD player with two hdmi outputs is a good option for people that don't want to upgrade their receivers.


Originally Posted by Josh-da-man (Post 10015811)
What a fucking mess.

Bottom line: for 3D you'll need a new television, a new blu-ray player, a new receiver, and possibly new HDMI cables.

To borrow a line from Jules Winfield: "Do I look like a bitch?"

New TV? Yes.

New BD player? Not if you have a PS3 or another BD player that can be upgraded via firmware.

New receiver? Not if you have the Panasonic BD player with two hdmi outputs.

New hdmi cables? Doubtful as most (if not all) hdmi 1.3 compliant cables are category 2 cables.

Supermallet 02-24-10 03:12 AM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 
The Panasonic player with two HDMI outs is a new 3D capable player, not an existing player. So if you already have any kind of BD setup, and you want 1080p 3D with lossless audio, you'll need at minimum a new TV and a new player, or a new TV and a new receiver.

I was supportive of 3D BD before, but this is ridiculous. I might have even tried the adapter for my Mits, but not if I have to run my audio out through optical. Guess I'll just wait until 3D is standard in every new display, receiver, and player.

jdslater1 02-24-10 03:14 AM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 
I'm so glad I don't give a crap about 3-D.

RocShemp 02-24-10 10:26 AM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 

Originally Posted by Suprmallet (Post 10015878)
The Panasonic player with two HDMI outs is a new 3D capable player, not an existing player. So if you already have any kind of BD setup, and you want 1080p 3D with lossless audio, you'll need at minimum a new TV and a new player, or a new TV and a new receiver.

Pretty much.

Although I wonder if an hdmi splitter would do the trick. Depending on how effective one might be, that's a work around I might consider.


Originally Posted by Suprmallet (Post 10015878)
I was supportive of 3D BD before, but this is ridiculous. I might have even tried the adapter for my Mits, but not if I have to run my audio out through optical. Guess I'll just wait until 3D is standard in every new display, receiver, and player.

You're in the same boat as me. I was gonna wait on a deal for a new 3DTV and hook it up to my PS3 and Onkyo 705. Now I'll have to wait longer cos you know that any receiver that can accept and pass an FHD3D signal will be pricey if you want it to also have any decent amount of amplifier power. It's the same whenever new features are added to receivers.

Joe Molotov 02-24-10 10:27 AM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 
I think what it all boils down to is 3DTV = A Huge Clusterfrak

Gizmo 02-24-10 10:59 AM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 

Originally Posted by jdslater1 (Post 10015879)
I'm so glad I don't give a crap about 3-D.

Neither do I. Just bought a fancy new LG BD590 last night. Fuck 3D.

Josh Z 02-24-10 01:54 PM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 

Originally Posted by RocShemp (Post 10016275)
Although I wonder if an hdmi splitter would do the trick. Depending on how effective one might be, that's a work around I might consider.

It'd have to be an HDMI 1.4 splitter, of course.

My experience with HDMI splitters has been problematic. None of the passive models work at all. Neither do most of the cheaper powered models. I finally had to break down and buy an expensive Audio Authority model to find one that didn't give me constant handshaking problems.

RocShemp 02-24-10 03:09 PM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 

Originally Posted by Josh Z (Post 10016737)
It'd have to be an HDMI 1.4 splitter, of course.

Would it really? Isn't the issue that a 1.3 receiver wouldn't recognise the 3D ID and thus blank out the signal? But a 1.4 TV would recognise the 3D ID regardless of wether it received it from 1.3 or 1.4 device? Afterall, 1.3 handles a bitrate of 10.2gps and the FHD3D bitrate is fired at 6.75gps.


Originally Posted by Josh Z (Post 10016737)
My experience with HDMI splitters has been problematic. None of the passive models work at all. Neither do most of the cheaper powered models. I finally had to break down and buy an expensive Audio Authority model to find one that didn't give me constant handshaking problems.

Hmm. Not that great a work around then. :sad:

Josh Z 02-24-10 03:46 PM

Re: Why HDMI 1.4 Doesn't Make Sense
 

Originally Posted by RocShemp (Post 10016907)
Would it really? Isn't the issue that a 1.3 receiver wouldn't recognise the 3D ID and thus blank out the signal? But a 1.4 TV would recognise the 3D ID regardless of wether it received it from 1.3 or 1.4 device? Afterall, 1.3 handles a bitrate of 10.2gps and the FHD3D bitrate is fired at 6.75gps.

Typically, if you need one version of HDMI at the beginning and end of the signal chain, you need that same version on any intermediary devices in between.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:08 AM.


Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.