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With HD audio formats, is the Dolby vs.DTS issue void?

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With HD audio formats, is the Dolby vs.DTS issue void?

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Old 02-22-09 | 01:43 AM
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Re: With HD audio formats, is the Dolby vs.DTS issue void?

16 or 24 (as far as I understand) only matters if the master was at either 16 or 24. It has something to do with the digitalization.

Of course this opens up a curious can of worms because 16 bit uncompressed PCM track is not necessarily inferior to a 24 bit lossless track (be it TrueHD or DTS-MA) unless the lossless track is also based on a 24 bit PCM track.

This reminds me of a friend of mine who would take DD tracks from his DVD collection and re-encode them in DTS because he thought it made the audio sound better when in fact all he was getting was a DTS encoded DD track. Crap in, crap out.
Old 02-22-09 | 02:10 AM
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Re: With HD audio formats, is the Dolby vs.DTS issue void?

Originally Posted by Spiky
You know, for someone consistently trying to be the most knowledgeable and most intelligent person on the board, it seems strange that you don't understand 2 five-letter words. So let me point out to you: Movie != Music. (usually).
Film or music, this generalization you produced Spiky:

Originally Posted by Spiky
CD is lossless. Think that sounds the same?

Movie soundtracks are 50% or more dialog. Lossless is pointless for this. And most of the rest is fake sound, anyway. Effects created by a computer. You want to hear what lossless sounds like? Get music on DVD-A or SACD.
...is incorrect . Since you aren't willing to hear why, I am only going to add the following - It does not matter whether or not we discuss music or film. Perhaps you can hear a bigger gap in quality when loseless is used for music recordings, but loseless is just as important about film dialog (again, reproducing correct voice overtones, timbres, etc is a far more complex task than reproducing instrumental overtones, timbers, etc. Hence, loseless encoding is always imperative. And in case it isn't clear, vocal music does not
equate singing - you also have recitative, vocal declamation, narrative singing, etc).

Pro-B

Last edited by pro-bassoonist; 02-22-09 at 03:02 AM.
Old 02-22-09 | 03:08 AM
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Re: With HD audio formats, is the Dolby vs.DTS issue void?

Hmm...

Speaking of resumes... Pro-B, do you have an imdb page? Surely, you must enlighten us.
Old 02-22-09 | 02:17 PM
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Re: With HD audio formats, is the Dolby vs.DTS issue void?

Originally Posted by beebs
Wait if Lossless is Lossless what's the deal with 16 bit over 24 bit and bit rates of these audio tracks? Poppycock or the real deal?
24bit vs 16bit - Poppycock.
Speaking of 24bit vs 16bit, here's a study on the topic I ran across last year


Discussion at hydrogenaudio forums:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...howtopic=57406

Study abstract:
Claims both published and anecdotal are regularly made for audibly superior sound quality for two-channel audio encoded with longer word lengths and/or at higher sampling rates than the 16-bit/44.1-kHz CD standard. The authors report on a series of double-blind tests comparing the analog output of high-resolution players playing high-resolution recordings with the same signal passed through a 16-bit/44.1-kHz "bottleneck." The tests were conducted for over a year using different systems and a variety of subjects. The systems included expensive professional monitors and one high-end system with electrostatic loudspeakers and expensive components and cables. The subjects included professional recording engineers, students in a university recording program, and dedicated audiophiles. The test results show that the CD-quality A/D/A loop was undetectable at normal-to-loud listening levels, by any of the subjects, on any of the playback systems. The noise of the CD-quality loop was audible only at very elevated levels.
They took hi-rez SACD type 24/96 type audio and downrezzed it to CD quality (16 bit) audio. The difference was undetectable. 2 people did manage to detect a difference at 99 decibels and higher.

You can only get the full study details by paying but here's a hunk of it I copied/pasted a year or so back (it's a little garbled, it came from a google cache, so there's some spaces missing here and there:

The test results for the detectability of the 16/44.1 loopon SACD/DVD-A playback were the same as chance:49.82%. There were 554 trials and 276 correct answers.The sole exceptions were for the condition of no signaland high system gain, when the difference in noise floorsof the two technologies, old and new, was readily audible.As the tests progressed, we repeatedly sorted the datafor correlations with age, sex, upper frequency hearinglimit, or experience. No such correlations have emerged.Specifically, on music at normal levels as defined here,audiophiles and/or working recording-studio engineers got246 correct answers in 467 trials, for 52.7% correct. Fe-males got 18 in 48, for 37.5% correct. Those subjects ableto hear tones above 15 kHz got 116 in 256 trials, for 45.3%correct; listeners aged 14–25 years old (who were, as itturned out, the same group), also got 116 correct in 256trials, 45.3%. The “best” listener score, achieved onesingle time, was 8 for 10, still short of the desired 95%confidence level. There were two 7/10 results. All othertrial totals were worse than 70% correct.Furthermore, none of the more elaborate and expensiveplayback systems (for which the subjects were all dedi-cated amateur audiophiles, active students in a profes-sional recording program, and/or experienced workingprofessionals) revealed detectable differences on music,again at levels as defined previously.In one brief test with two subjects we added 14 dB ofgain to the reference level quoted and tested the twosources with no input signal, to see whether the noise levelof the CD audio channel would prove audible. Althoughone of the subjects was uncertain of his ability to hear thenoise, both achieved results of 10/10 in detecting the CDloop. (We have not yet determined the threshold of thiseffect. With gain of more than 14 dB above reference,detection of the CD chain’s higher noise floor was easy,with no uncertainty. Tests with other subjects bore this out.)Fig. 2. Critical listening position for majority of tests.ENGINEERING REPORTSAUDIBILITY OF CD-STANDARD A/D/A LOOPJ. Audio Eng. Soc., Vol. 55, No. 9, 2007 September777
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 4
The high-resolution sources when played back at the+14-dB level were unpleasantly (often unbearably) loud,and modern, aggressively mastered CDs even more so.Room tone and/or preamplifier noise in almost all record-ings masked the 16/44.1 noise floor, though we did findone or two productions in which there was a detectabledifference in room tone at gain settings of +20 dB or moreabove the reference level. At these very high gains wecould also hear subtle low-level decoding errors in all butthe most expensive of the high-resolution players.From the many different recordings we used it emergedthat almost no music or voice program, recording venue,instrument, or performer exceeds the capabilities of a well-implemented CD-quality record/playback loop. The CDhas adequate bandwidth and dynamic range for any homereproduction task, and it is a rare playback venue that isquiet enough to reveal the 16-bit noise floor of our A/D/Aloop—which has no noise shaping and was thereforeless than optimal in this regard—even at gains above our reference.

...

"Virtually all of the SACD and DVD-A recordings sounded better than most CDs — sometimes much better... Partly because these recordings have not captured a large portion of the consumer market for music, engineers and producers are being given the freedom to produce recordings that sound as good as they can make them, without having to compress or equalize the signal to suit lesser systems and casual listening conditions... Our test results indicate that all of these recordings could be released on conventional CDs with no audible difference. They would not, however, find such a reliable conduit to the homes of those with the systems and listening habits to appreciate them. The secret, for two-channel recordings at least, seems to lie not in the high-bit recording but in the high-bit market."
Basically it boils down to, the only reason that DVD-A/SACD is "better" than 16bit/44.1 CD....better mastering. Because if you run a 24bit recording through a filter and downrez it to 16bit...not detectable in a blind test by humans. Normally the subjectivist audiophiles come up with some golden ear arguments of some sort though. They're never convinced. This kind of study makes them angry and they just insist there is a difference.

If you're listening at 99 decibels and above, then it looks like some people can detect the noise floor on CD-quality or something like that. The only time I hear music at 99 decibels and above is a rock concert

I don't believe there is a study available on the newer codecs vs oldschool DD5.1 or whatever...at least not last time I scoured the internets in 2007. But I'm skeptical between the 24/96 vs 16/44.1 study, and the various blind tests of mp3 bitrate detection, that the difference between lossless and a hi-bitrate codec DD+ is possibly detectable in a blind test by people.

Last edited by GreenMonkey; 02-22-09 at 02:29 PM.
Old 02-22-09 | 05:28 PM
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Re: With HD audio formats, is the Dolby vs.DTS issue void?

I can agree with this. I love my small SACD collection, but agree the mastering is probably why they sound better. Today's music is produced with ipod ear buds in mind for the listening device. The dynamic range we once had on early CDs is no longer there.
Old 02-26-09 | 05:47 AM
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Re: With HD audio formats, is the Dolby vs.DTS issue void?

well in DVD Talk I don't hear such a thing anymore. But in lesser forum, or in mainstream (non film related) forum, some people still boasting about DTS and such. Oh well.
Old 02-26-09 | 08:09 AM
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Re: With HD audio formats, is the Dolby vs.DTS issue void?

In depth audio discussions are always funny to listen/see. It's always a no win situation, but I still love it.
Old 02-26-09 | 10:19 AM
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Re: With HD audio formats, is the Dolby vs.DTS issue void?

Originally Posted by lizard
"Louder"? Although a whole lot of people here seem to think so, louder has nothing whatsoever to do with audio quality.
I agree. Louder has nothing to do with audio quality. But there is definitely a volume difference between some tracks.
Old 02-28-09 | 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by The Bus
I agree. Louder has nothing to do with audio quality. But there is definitely a volume difference between some tracks.
And therein lies the problem: people who compare tracks without volume matching them with a SPL meter first. For most people, as you know, louder sounds "better".

Back in the DD versus DTS days, it was known that DTS tracks were often louder than the DD tracks, even if they were from the same master. This made for unfair comparisons by DTS aficionados. But I found one DVD that I measured as having the same volume level for both tracks: The Fellowship of the Ring: EE. In switching between the two tracks I was unable to discern any difference with my lower-end 5.1 system and non-"golden" ears. Perhaps others can hear a difference, but I'd be skeptical unless they passed a blind trial.

I also did a volume-matched trial between the DD+ and TrueHD tracks on the Batman Begins HD DVD and was unable to hear any difference. I wouldn't be surprised if audiophiles with high-end systems could hear a difference, but for most of us? I think we are dealing with the placebo effect. However, long experience has shown me that no amount of pointing that out will change the minds of those true believers on the placebo.
Old 02-28-09 | 02:50 PM
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Re: With HD audio formats, is the Dolby vs.DTS issue void?

Originally Posted by The Bus
I agree. Louder has nothing to do with audio quality.
It depends on how you approach louder.

Solid dynamic amplitude isn't something that all of the advanced codecs achieve flawlessly. In fact, one of the key issues sound mixers always struggle with is how to maintain good balance between volume and fidelity/quality (live opera recordings on Blu-ray are a great example) - when they address balance they also tweak the dynamic amplitude. So, in essence, louder has everything to do with audio quality.

You could certainly argue that most people probably won't be able to tell if there is a nuanced difference between two similarly encoded tracks, assuming that they don't have a good audio set-up. Furthermore, perhaps you believe that certain people's perception that louder automatically equates better is incorrect; this is a great observation! But to claim that louder has nothing to do with quality is simply incorrect.

Pro-B

Last edited by pro-bassoonist; 03-01-09 at 12:33 AM.
Old 03-02-09 | 05:09 AM
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Re: With HD audio formats, is the Dolby vs.DTS issue void?

I get what you're aiming at, pro-bassoonist. However, in this discussions, when we speak of "loudness" we mean the implementation of gain to an audio track. And it is a well documented fact that if you take the same recording and play it first at one volume level and then play it back after boosting the gain, people perceive it as being "better" the second time around.

I'm not arguing against what you've stated. Just clarifying what's being argued in this thread.
Old 03-02-09 | 02:17 PM
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Re: With HD audio formats, is the Dolby vs.DTS issue void?

Dynamic range and volume are not the same thing.
Old 03-02-09 | 03:06 PM
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Re: With HD audio formats, is the Dolby vs.DTS issue void?

I wasn't talking of dynamic range, JoshZ. Or was that post directed at pro-bassoonist?
Old 03-03-09 | 09:00 AM
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Re: With HD audio formats, is the Dolby vs.DTS issue void?

Originally Posted by RocShemp
I wasn't talking of dynamic range, JoshZ.
Didn't mean to sound like I was contradicting you. I was actually trying to support your point. As you mentioned, "volume" is a simple gain increase or decrease, applied equally across the entire soundtrack. Dynamic range is the difference between the highest and lowest peaks in the track.

Two different lossless encodings of a soundtrack may have different default volumes, but (if they're truly lossless) they will have identical dynamic range.

Therefore, simply setting the default volume of one track to be louder than another does not in any way make it "better". It's no different than turning the Volume knob on a receiver.

This is what we mean when we say that, "Louder does not equal better." The statement has nothing to do with the dynamic range of the soundtrack, which is a separate matter entirely.
Old 03-04-09 | 10:36 PM
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Re: With HD audio formats, is the Dolby vs.DTS issue void?

Ah, okay. I thought perhaps I expressed myself incorrectly and you were trying to correct me. But thank you.

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