I don't see them taking their marbles and going home. They supported laserdisc for decades, but my big concern is getting mostly safer blockbuster style films on Blu-ray and fewer catalog releases. If all we end up getting is big budget films and the typical guy action and comedy releases because that is all that sells Blu-ray might as well be dead.

I still haven't purchased a Blu-ray movie since Bonnie and Clyde. The prices are just too high to buy any film I don't really want and many of the ones I have wanted have been disappointments in video quality like Butch and Sundance or extras like many Fox releases or both like Master and Commander. It seems since winning the format war the Blu-ray group has quit trying. Even V for Vendetta was just a recycle of the audio and video from the HD DVD release and again gave me no reason to upgrade my identical HD DVD.

I did want to pick up Pan's Labyrinth during the B2for$30 sale, but I either have the other titles or don't consider them worth the additional $15.

I remember The Matrix was on sale for $16.99 at B&M stores when it came out.... now we're lucky if they're $25. Certainly we can seek out decent deals if we take advantage of online sales...but the general public needs to start seeing $19.99 new release prices in stores I think. TDK or Iron Man would be a perfect start... think we'll see that?

Those screen captures are pretty much meaningless. DVD Beaver is a nice site, but they continue to use low resolution images for BD "screenshots." I understand there are bandwidth concerns, but if they're not going to compare the images at a proper resolution (at least 1280x720), there's not much of a point. All you can do is check out the colors and contrast. Those shots are even at a lower resolution than DVD. If you want accuracy, see Xylon's comparisons on AVS.

If they can't host full resolution images, I would suggest they compare a section of a BD screenshot to a section of a DVD shot that is scaled to the same resolution.

This is a fair point. It's important that pricing come down to levels that consumers consider reasonable, but that doesn't necessarily mean they need to drop to the same point or below current DVD pricing.

It's more than just pricing that's causing these poor Blu-ray sales. That's only one factor. The bigger issue is that the format has not demonstrated itself to be a sufficient improvement over DVD in the eyes of most consumers. This will require a consumer education initiative to show people that upscaled DVD is not just as good as HD, and that every movie and TV show can benefit from High Definition, not just big-budget action and sci-fi flicks. Those are huge misconceptions that still dominate the marketplace, which the studios and hardware manufacturers have further perpetuated through their release slates and marketing claims.

It will require a better selection of movies be released, content that will appeal to more than just PS3 gaming teens. Blu-ray needs to appeal to more women, families, classic film lovers, genre movie buffs, and the like. Right now, those people see next to nothing they want to watch on Blu-ray, and so have stuck with DVD. Blu-ray is seen as the "PS3 movie format" and is perceived as a toy and a gimmick.

Criterion announcing their first Blu-ray titles is a big step in the right direction, but the other studios need to open their vaults as well. And no more holding back of "prestige" titles until the market is large enough for them to make a big splash. Doing that is a sure-fire way to ensure that the market never hits that point.

It will also require that the movies that do get released offer a compelling upgrade over DVD. No more recycling dated video masters with bad edge enhancement or DNR artifacts. No more dropping all the supplements that the DVD had and then charging $39.98 for a mediocre catalog title. And if the studio is going to invest in a fancy new interactive feature, they need to make it something useful and worthwhile, not just a stupid Java game or overly complicated menus.

Fixing all of those things would be a very good start.

Just to toss on a quick addendum to this, not just movies from 199x on stand to benefit from HD. That's the most common misconception I hear. It's pretty ridiculous to think that people assume movies from the '50s or '60s will look horrible in high-def when they were shot to look spectacular on screens dozens of times the size of an average home theater.

for the most part, i really think you hit the nail on the head with all of that. right now, WB seems to be the studio moving in that direction the most. they've released (and continue to release) a balanced cross-section of movies with quite a few classics and older films. they pretty much always include, at the very least, the extras from the DVD counterparts, occasionally adding exclusive advanced content. i know some complain about the A/V quality on Warner releases, but overall i think they've been pretty solid and have learned from the mistakes of using inadequate masters on some early releases.

Wow. Great post.

I think consumer education is a HUGE key.

I was in line to get into a graduation yesterday. This woman in front of me was marveling at an iPhone this guy in front of her was using. She was amazed how something so small could do so much. He told her that technology makes things smaller and smaller. He then said, and I quote, "That is what those new blu-rays are. They are smaller than DVDs (he pantomimed the size of a 3" CD)."

Now this guy was clearly no total stranger to technology, as he was having no issues using his iPhone. He clearly had no clue what BD was all about. Now this is total anecdotal evidence, and I know that the iPhone is a "hot" toy, but this sort of surprised me.

The existence of upconverters and the way they are marketed absolutely kills BD.

Josh, allow me to offer my full support in any potential future bids you might make for the presidency.

Back then you had really 3 ways of watching movies. VHS, Laserdisc, and Theaters. Now, I can watch a movie in so many ways its sick. DVD, Blu-ray, HD DVD, AppleTV, Xbox 360, Netflix, Torrents, VuDu...Now, will the quality of any of these be the same as Blu-ray (or HD DVD)? No. But for most people, its good enough. If consumers seek out other options of watching media that is not DVD, it can only hurt Blu-ray. If Fox spends a lot of money releasing a title they feel is "big" and it sells a couple thousand copies...whats the point? Why keep throwing money into something that will not turn them a profit. I'd hate to point out UMD, but thats a classic format that was doing pretty damn good and almost over night all the studios pulled out leaving Sony and a few odd-ball releases.

Ridiculous or not, many people do assume that.

As we have seen with Casablanca, Adventures of Robin Hood, Forbidden Planet, et al., older movies can and do look great in HD. However, the market for these type of titles has (thus far) proven to be lackluster at best.

Sadly, the above 3 are great titles and excellent transfer but sold poorly. Hopefully Wizard of Oz will change all of that.

Put my pre-order in now please. :hump:

That's a good point, but I'm not sure education is going to do that much to change it. Right now, there seems to be a perception on the part of some that certain movies don't need to be in HD. It's not that they think they won't look good (which is what education would address); it's that they feel HD should be reserved for highly visual films with special effects and aggressive sound mixes. I see people on this forum and others saying they won't buy comedies and "chick flicks" in HD, and they're not just catalog titles they are considering replacing. They're brand new movies in some cases. I'm not sure what the studios can do about this other than get the prices down to the point where people might as well get them on BD. I'm hoping this attitude will change as people get more acclimated to HD and are past the demo phase.

Another problem is that some have a notion that HD has a certain look that everything has to strive for. They feel that if the movie is grainy, or soft, or otherwise not perfect, they should just get the DVD instead. It doesn't matter to them that the colors could be better, or the movie could look more detailed but not perfect, or that the compression artifacts would be greatly reduced; if it doesn't have that "pop" they don't want it. Some movies, particularly older ones, just aren't going to reach their lofty standards no matter how well they're remastered.

BTW, there's a guy on AVS who is almost never satisfied with anything. He was criticizing the transfer for No Country for Old Men, and actually insinuated that the reason some shots were softer than others was because the compressionist was deciding on the level of sharpness for each shot. :lol:

I worded that extremely poorly. I meant it's ridiculous for people to assume that, not that it's ridiculous to assume that people think that. Sorry. :)

The education thing is huge, but honestly I just keep running into the "I don't care attitude". I know more and more people every day that are getting HDTVs and the majority still don't care about watching HD content on them. I have definitely tried showing people I know real "HD" content and occasionally it works, but by and large it fails. They figure they spent enough money buying the HDTV and they feel no need to spend more money on HD Cable, Blu-ray or in some cases just freaking component cables.

It frustrates me to no end.

I don't think Blu-ray has to be the same price as DVD, but it shouldn't be the large difference you see on TV box sets and if they are going to slap on $39.99 MSRPs on movies that 50GB disc better be just as loaded as the DVD that will be selling for $14.99 at Best Buy. I'm the first to say video and audio is the most important thing, but when I'm paying $30 I don't want to go home with less feautres than the DVD version. Wasn't the 50GB disc the reason many wanted BD to win? Then we still get barebones releases? Unacceptable.

I think Blu-ray can find a profitable niche and not be a UMD type failure, but they may be selling largley to the enthusiasts so they better deliver if they want the discs to sell.

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I stopped by my Walmart tonight to see for myself the new advertisement policy the retailer has adopted,which has been a hot topic for discussion on other forums, and there are a couple of things to note (addressing your comments above).

UMD never saw the sort of massive promotion that Walmart is going to unveil this Memorial Day (I did not have a camera with me but the above photos were borrowed from another poster showing the transition).

Enthusiasts are clearly not the target with such advertisements.

Even though this forum has remained suspiciously silent it is worth pointing out that the new Magnavox 500 players (with the same chip used for the Panasonic players) are now in stock for less than 300$ (the Walmart on Lake Cook Rd. in Buffalo Grove, IL sold out in 48 hours, and tonight at 8.45pm they were restocking).

Pro-B

Wait....so half-baked $300 BD players are the solution but full featured $99 HD DVD players were not? ...right.

I like how you pointed out the $300 BD players sold out in 48 hours. How many did they stock, 2-3? Do you know? I recall a November where nearly all Wal-Marts in America sold between 20-100 players in a single day...but it was not a Blu-ray player. So even if the Wal-Mart masses go crazy and buy a handful of players, will it all of the sudden mean Blu-ray is relevant?

It was funny watching a certain forum dismiss Wal-Mart selling HD DVD players for $99 and how it was so stupid and lame. Yet, now that they are doing it for Blu its all good. Irony.

This is not a fire-sale. And as you could see from the pictures this isn't an end-cap.

No, I do not know how many they sold. What I know is that Walamart has designed an entirely new floor plan to promote the format. This will be a long term commitment not a temporary sale event.

What it means is that this is the beginning of the advertising push members have been debating on this and other forums.

It is ironic indeed. The only irony I detect however is that you can not recognize that Magnavox and Sylvania are not priced at 99$ and are not part of a short-term fire sale. The new floor plan will have a selection of BR machines, PS3 included.

Pro-B

The sad part is that most of those HD-DVD players went back so your point is irrelevant.

Certainly, studios have to insist on the fact that HD offers benefits even for movies other than the latest blockbuster. Just because Juno is a comedy doesn't mean it can't benefit from hidef. As long as the average movie buyer thinks otherwise, growth will be stunted.

However, this is by no means the result of Blu-ray being the "PS3 movie format". The proof: HD DVD. Going by the last figures, 2/3 of HD DVD players were standalones, so the effect of the console crowd was much lower. However, just as it happened with Blu-ray, top sellers were the big action movies (Transformers, Bourne Ultimatum, 300) - and Planet Earth. People want eye candy.

Ironically that's why the public at large doesn't really have a problem with DNR - it's film grain they are objecting to.

I agree. The preferences for the average HD DVD consumer and the average BD consumer were pretty much the same thing. It is very strange.

However, I do think that they need to get a few standalone decks into stores that are reasonably priced (compared tot the PS3) and as fully feature, well supported and reliable as the PS3. Now that PS3 has done its job in getting BD launched, Sony needs to work on divorcing the two products a bit in the mindset of the average consumer.

There are a lot of people who think BD are strictly for PS3 owners and dismiss the format because they don't play video games.

Is this WalMart BD reset a nationwide thing or is it regional? With WalMart, more than any other retailer, YMMV.

Also, I did see some very large UMD displays back in the day. Not this big though.

I don't believe the general public needs an "education" in HD. Most get it; they're just not video enthusiasts or movie hounds such as those of us who visit these boards. When the price of Blu comes down to around the level of DVD, they'll bite, and only because they can still play their DVDs on the new machine. And, I don't think that's being unreasonable.

You'd figure they would do the wise thing.. huge 1080p tv + blu + planet earth = sells itself :)

QFT. What a lot of enthusiasts don't seem to get is new HDTV owners are JUST NOW getting to appreciate the 16:9 enhacement of their collections. Properly upscaled, a good many discs from years past look perfectly satisfying to new HDTV owners. These people just aren't critical viewers. DVD can provide a very high threshold of satisfaction for these people. They don't need to be 'educated'. The way people on these forums act you would think there was no way they could EVER have enjoyed dvd, let alone compiled vast collections of them (that they are now replacing with HDMs). I wish every catalog title released were in Hd, but it ain't gonna happen. The studios are treating Bd as a high protien (higher margin) supplement to dvd and that's the way it'll be for some time. Just a small supplement to a dvd diet.

And in November 2007 HD DVD was still a viable format.

That's great. But who is paying for it, Wal-Mart or the BDA? Do you really think Wal-Mart is going to dedicate so much space to something that sells then 10-15 copies a week tops? We all have seen the sales figures, they are very low. Why would Wal-Mart decide to dedicate so much space when they could put tens of thousands of other items there? Just like when you walked into Best buy months ago and saw 5 BD displays ans 1 HD DVD display? That's studios/CEs/whatever buying space for their product to be shown. Its nothing new. Its a good thing, sure, but its not Wal-Mart doing it out of the kindness if their heart.


When I think quality, I think Maganavox and Sylvania. $99 Toshiba or $299 Magnavox...tough choice there.

I see you have edited you're post from what you had originally said last night. Anyway, I'll keep you on block like before. There is no point in even replying to these posts.

Its YMMV. The thing will be a theft magnet. As-is 1 out of 3 Wal-Marts I visit (shudder) has the "cube" HD/BD display. All the movies are in nasty spider-like security devices to prevent theft. I imagine they will do the same...which kinda defeats the whole purpose.

Yeah, the Wal-Mart across the street does that. I used to go to Wal-Mart for pretty much all of the new releases -- their prices were pretty much on target with Amazon, and I wouldn't have to wait for shipping -- but now I can't actually touch the discs, and they have them stacked in a way that makes it tough to tell what they actually have in stock. I'd rather order online.

Mod Note: You're right, there's no point in replying. So don't. Your bitterness is getting tiresome.

Really? Did Wal-Mart take out full page ads in every newspaper in American letting them to to return their players for full refund? Did they research and call every customer they could letting them know? Did they post ad's in the electronics department? No, they did not. Many people that knew about it (from TDB and other sites of course), had to argue with Wal-Mart that they were in fact taking them back. I remember one forum member here had to tell them exactly what page and what memo to read just to get a refund. So in reality, probably 2% of all people who bought a $99 player from Wal-Mart even knew about the refund, and less then that even did it. Go back and read some posts here, many were happy with an excellent $99 upconverting player, even knowing there would be no HD DVDs to buy.

Before they did that they use to have them in similar shelving like the pics Pro B posted. It was almost funny to walk into Game Stop Tuesday afternoon and see all the new Blu-rays available to purchase "used" for $12.99-$14.99. Because of the high price and small design they were an easy theft target since they could walk next door to Game Stop and get $6-8 cash for them or, if they were smart, eBay or Craigslist. I can't imagine Wal-Mart will continue to stock them like that before, but the shelves make it a pain for the spider-like security....unless they go the Toys R US route with printed game boxes you have to redeem for the product.

I would not call one shelf for hardware and software at Walmart massive promotion...especially since they are probably paying for the it.

Wal-mart pricing is at least close to Amazons...Best Buy is typically MSRP.

It's more or less an entire aisle, not just a shelf. I just want to know when they're supposed to be filled.

It's enough room for multiple copies of approx. (at least) 115 different titles, that's pretty damn big, especially when you consider most Walmarts up til now held less than 25 titles (in my experience at least, one of the walmarts in my hometown has stocked about 50 or so for some time). Plus, it isn't half bad considering Walmart has a somewhat limited range of DVDs (well, not limited, but the selection pales compared to say Best Buy.)

The funniest thing to me about this entire thing has been the empty shelves. They're reorganizing so they pulled most DVDs yesterday, yet there in all it's glory, a small collection of Casshern DVDs. Which, 4 years ago, would have been the last place I'd expect to see that movie.

Did Walmart help HD DVD? Apparently not.

Will it help Blu-Ray? Remains to be seen. I'm not going to call them the savior of HDM given their history with pretty much demanding foolscreen DVD's. I can just image all the 1.78:1 Blu-Ray's of scope films. -shudder-

Still, it's hard to deny Walmart is one of the most direct routes to the "average" consumer.

Should be interesting.

Nobody said it was going to blow it up, but it is a sign it's spreading. Walmart never dedicated a section to HD DVD, even with the HD-A2 promotion.

Short Circuit is nowhere to be found in stores here :(

Also, I can reconfirm the $289 Magnavox Blu-player for anyone that cares.

The Wal Mart near where I work (Poway, CA) just reconfigured their DVD section. They now have about 75 Blu Ray titles.

I'm going to pick up a title or two just to support Wal Mart's expansion of their Blu Ray inventory.

Wal-Mart didn't dedicate a section to Blu while the war was ongoing, either.

That's not the point I was going for, but okay...

Blu-ray has a big section at Wal-Mart because the BDA paid for it. Just like how they had 4 out of 5 endcaps at Best Buy. Just like the endcap at Target with the BDP300.

Will it make a difference? Well, we will see.