Sony did so many things wrong with the PS3 that only thru the blind loyalty of their gamer base and the movie studios were they able to muddle thru until now. Their weird advertising, the high price, the lackluster titles, the botched discs like The Fifth Element, which they should've known was going to be THE A/V showoff disc for people who'd drop a grand on a new gadget. I know someone who works for SCEA as a game designer at another forum and even he acknowledged how clueless his outfit had been and bemoaned that they didn't seem to have a map out of the jungle. While they didn't have a map, they did have the will and bank balance to lose billions now to own the monopoly later.

If they had been able to launch at $400 - same as the Xbox 360 - then they would've sold a ton more despite having no games. Because they didn't have titles to get their former fans off the fence and M$ was pounding out must-have after must-have titles, Sony had to bide their time and (probably) start sending out the moneyhats to bury HD DVD.

That Sony was evil and dishonest wouldn't have mattered if the studios thought of their customers instead of their paranoia. The region-coding and DRM was very important to them as a means of control and not just against piracy. Ever wonder why they show you trailers begging you not to download movies at the movies you paid to get into and DVDs you've bought? They're scolding the paying customers! No one said that common sense was a requirement for employment in the entertainment industries.

As for the "screw the early adopters" argument - when HD DVD is into its 2nd holiday season and 3rd generation, it's a little too long in the tooth to call it a risky, unproven technology. The J6Ps were buying them and then Warners knifes them in the back. I can't imagine the big box retailers will be too happy to get all these decks back.

I just wanted to comment on this part of your statement. Sure, in the short term, retailers might have to deal with some returns. But you're kidding yourself if you think any of the retailers were happy with this format war. I guarantee they are all jumping for joy over the thought of this war ending, so if they have to eat a few returns in the process, I doubt they'll mind too much.

The retailers are ecstatic. They get to remove a whole section of shelf space and fill it with stuff that'll have a better chance of selling. And, the other section of stuff filled with BD will also sell better.

This only works if the backstabbed J6Ps decide to pony up even more money to buy into BD. Don't forget that they'll have to upgrade again when the new profiles come out unless they buy a PS3, which is precisely what Sony wants them to do.

I love your continued use of the word "backstabbing." How is choosing one format over the other a backstab? It could have gone either way and a decision had to be made eventually. I doubt you would characterizing this as a backstab if WB had chosen HD-DVD. It's not like WB made any promises.

I love the "backstabbed" term also. It's so laughable. It's not like people didn't realize that a format war was going on and that one side might win. And it's not like the HD discs don't work anymore or the players all need to be thrown out.

Many people in this same topic are holding onto their players and discs.

And Sony was "dishonest" and "evil" for releasing a product that missed their sales goals?!?! That's like saying Warner Bros was evil and dishonest for releasing the movie "The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford". Sure, it underperformed, but a lot of people liked it and maybe it will generate modest revenue in the future.

Even if every "backstabbed" HD DVD owner never buys Blu-Ray, that represents a very small percentage of the untapped potential market for HDM.

People unaware of the format war who go shopping for HDM for the first time in 6 months time will likely not even see HD DVD, just Blu-Ray.

Seems like WB opted to alienate a small number in order to have a better chance to sell to a large number.

If this site gave rep point, I'd give you 50. Incredibly well stated.

I'm sure they are ecstatic, but I doubt they'll save much shelf space. The HD DVD section will just be replaced with Blu Rays of the same movies (i.e. Transformers, Bourne, Batman Begins, Matrix). They weren't that many titles that had two versions (HD DVD and Blu Ray), and stores really weren't stocking up on such titles. At best they'll save on hardware space, although again I'm not sure how much space was dedicated to HD DVD players to reclaim.

Disagree. Not that DVDwill disappear anytime soon. But you couldn't play a VHS in a Laserdisc player. And Laserdiscs or their players were never widely available at places like Walmart or Best Buy. I don't think the comparison is apt.

If you guys want to roll over and play dead for Sony, that's fine, but you're missing the point. People like us who inhabit forums like here and AVS are NOT J6Ps. Hell, the very term "J6P" is used to distinguish the ignorant Morlocks from the informed Eloi.

When movies are advertised, they don't say, "Available Tuesday on DVD and a format that may or may not be around in a year's time." You think the people who are dragging their computers into Geek Squad/Firedog/Nerd Herd knew there was a format war on? They probably assumed it was like how Mario is on the Nintendo consoles and Final Fantasy is on the Sony console and so on... You can't say the general public is simultaneously too stupid to remember to breathe regularly AND knowingly gambling in buying a HDM playback device and thus denied whining rights if they pick wrong.

Wasn't the whole need for a single HDM format supposed to be because people wouldn't understand why some movies weren't compatible with some players? With compact discs, you bought them and played them on a CD player. Simple. Where the music biz went wrong was having incompatible DVD-Audio and SACD formats for next-gen music and the both flopped. (Hey, who made SACD anyway? Why, Sony!!! Surprise, surprise!)

With the dual flops of DVD-A and SACD still leaving an odor, the warring next-gen video camps ignored that example and clashed, mostly due to Sony's arrogance and greed. But, for once, they had a couple of aces up their kimonos in the form of the massive success of the PS2 and their ability to BS the coked-out movie execs into believing the lie about the PS2's effect on DVD uptake. Mix in the rabid fanboys who would bark "50GB!!!! Cell Processor!!!" at anything that breathed and Sony figured they'd be able to survive rectal bleeding to the tune of a couple billion if it meant their format one and they'd rake in all those royalties and PS3 sales.

Peep: Go read all the words I've written in this thread for my context for calling Sony liars and evil. Hint: It has nothing to do with sales.

BD owners were stabbed in the back by Paramount as well.

Dirk, there was some consumer confusion in the market place, but you can be sure that majority of the movie buying public knew there was a format war going on. My mom knows and she can't program her VCR. My father-in-law knows and he's almost as technological illiterate. Both sides made a huge effort to educate the public, and the constant information in newspapers, magazines and online regarding the format war helped as well. People aren't quite as stupid as you seem to think.

Sony had a plan, which didn't work out quite like they'd hoped. It's unfortunate because it kept the format war going for longer than it should have and hurt their bottom line. They probably did cede the console war to win the HD war, but that was their plan all along. They made some bad choices and it's biting them in the ass. Maybe it will work out for them and maybe this will signal their downfall. Try not to take it so personally though.

Oh and name calling is a nice way to get yourself banned.

I don't really understand the argument here. Isn't the point of business to sell your stuff and make money? And isn't Sony trying to make more money by developing formats like SACD and Blu-Ray? And aren't they just telling consumers stuff so they buy their products (as well as the studios).

Anything you buy has a risk involved with it. I could buy something today that the manufacturer decides to discontinue, making it harder to repair. I could something right before the next great leap forward in technology and be left with an inferior product. I could be sold a product that does have the best forward capability and regret I didn't spend a few more bucks for a better, future proof device. Isn't that what's happening here?

I don't expect companies to look out for my interests. They're looking out for their interests. They're not trying to defraud me. They'll sell me perfectly legitimate products. But it's up to me to know if those products do what I want them to and are really good buys or not.

Dirk, this is a moderator warning. Personal attacks are not allowed in this forum. If we see it again, action will be taken.

Of course, if you're one of the poor souls who got sacrificed in the quest to garner more profit, you should be silent and happy about your abandonment. Boy, you people love the lash, don't you? 'GIVE US THE LASH!!!" It's so easy to spot the Sony fans. If the wheel had turned the other way and Toshiba shanked their favored format, I doubt you'd be as contented as you expect the Red people to be.

There never should've been a format war. Sony played dirty and the studios chose the most anti-consumer format despite it being unfinished and more costly. And after two years of stalemate, instead of everyone serving everyone, they slashed the throats of the minority. If all the studios were neutral, then buyers would've been able to chose their players based on THEIR wants, not Sony's greed needs.

BTW, whoever tried to claim that because titles using all the HD DVD features weren't out at launch is being disingenuous to say the least. They COULD HAVE if they wanted to! They didn't have to wait a year to do IME/PIP stuff or put an Ethernet jack in. It was mandated in the HD DVD spec and studios could invest in the features without worrying if people could play them.

I'm pro-consumer and just as I'm sad for the HD DVD peeps who got hosed, I'm just as sad for those poor folks who will hear the the war is over, it's safe to buy a Blu-ray player, go to the store and buy a Profile 1.0 player and then wonder why all the nifty extra features they thought they'd get on the discs don't work. Guess they'd better buy a PS3 to be safe. And maybe pick up some games. Yeah, that's the ticket! :grumble:

yah, i'd hate to not be able to play the "capture the pirate's booty" java game on Pirates-2 or whatever the lame applications are that no one cares about... That'd really break my heart...

Well, here at BB and FS the HD DVD media section was pretty extensive, along with standalone shelves that held HD DVD media. There were also a few displays with HD DVD players playing movies.

Not sure how it's like in the USA, but it seemed that there was a significant amount of space devoted to selling HDM (both BD and HD DVD).

If BD plays their cards right, the number of titles (and quantity of each title - this is a problem with the current setup - there's literally one disc available for each title) should rise significantly.

For the most part, I agree, which is why I never buy anything without doing my research. But there are still some things that you will not be able to find out, even with research, simply because you don't know what to look for.

For Sony and other manufacturers to be selling Profile 1.0 players that simply cannot be upgraded to Profile 1.1, while there are already Profile 1.1 discs on the market, is just plain unfair. In this case, I'd argue that they are not selling me perfectly legitimate products and that they are in fact trying to defraud me.

Melodramatic much?

Sorry about that. It has been removed.

I trust that these prohibitions go the other way as well. At the forums for another HUGE site, the mods are among the most flagrant abusers of the TOS, hurling personal attacks at those who run afoul of their reindeer games. Equitable enforcement of the rules was non-existent. It was very gang-based with the mods banning anyone who dared respond to their pals attacks. Pitiful.

Uh-oh. Kinda like this. Time to mosey along. :goodbye:

I think we have a pretty good moderation team here. The mods are as beholden to the TOS as the regular members.

You're right there never should've been a format war. Toshiba should have seen that the majority of the studios were signed up for blu-ray and given up early before they slashed the throats of everyone who bought their products.

See how silly something like that sounds when it goes the opposite way?

And there wouldn't have been a war (or at least a much shorter war) if everyone avoided buying EITHER format. If people exercised a bit of self-control, both sides would've found out real quick that they better work things out and come to a consensus.

I guarantee you I have exactly 3 pieces of Sony equipment in house: the PS3, the BDP-S1 and a 12 year old boombox.

Meanwhile, I have 4 Toshiba TV's, 2 Toshiba HD DVD players, and 3 Toshiba DVD players.

So basically, don't call people Sony fans when you don't know what the f*** you're talking about.

EDIT: Stupid fast typing....