why even consider that, though? Having things at 50/50 only put the public back on a "wait and see" mindset. If they were hesitant to invest in one format or the other before, returning to where there is no leader will only cause sales to slow again. By having a clear winner, the public should feel a little more at ease, and willing to purchase the hardware and media.

The problem with BOTH Blu-ray and HD DVD is that for Joe 6 Pack it just isn't a big enough leap forward from DVD to warrant investing in *either* side. It's the same old argument... DVD was a quantum leap forward from VHS, in both ease of use, features, and PQ/SQ. Sure, us wingnuts at websites like this drool over this HD DVD/Blu-ray stuff, but you tell me... some regular dude who sees, oh, I don't know, some shitty Blu-ray release like "Total Recall", sees how grainy and awful it is, is he going to be onboard the HD disc revolution? It doesn't even have to be a lousy release, even the best PQ and sound quality from a release, is still, in the eyes of Joe Consumer, just a modest upgrade at best (assuming they even have their high def setups setup correctly!!). When a good % of the random population who even own a HDTV and/or an HD or Blu player have it setup via component cables, and not an HDMI, you are fighting a losing battle from jump street.

Even if Blu-ray wins, and is the *only* HD disc option, they are still going to have an uphill battle on their hands... standard DVD is just too good to warrant upgrading your hardware, let alone double dipping and upgrading your old DVD collection.

The only reason Sony was successful was because of bundling Blu-Ray with the PS3.

That's the main reason I am disappointed in this decision. It seemed like HD DVD was doing things "the right way" - lowering the cost of the hardware at a steady rate, getting good exclusives, having a solid spec, etc. All the right moves, so to speak.

But because Sony made sure they could count every PS3 owner as a Blu-Ray owner too, they look better in the long run and their format seems to be "winning".

It's frustrating. I'd take a cheaper stand-alone player (and I did) over using my console for something other than gaming any day of the week.

At the end of the day this is exactly the reason they won the HD movie war and lost the video game war to Microsoft and Nintendo. Weird how things work out.

I brought up DVD to show they have the pedigree to get the job done. -wink- .

Let's hope that everyone gets their act together and starts to put out product. I have money burning a hole in my pocket. :lol:

I really think you unerestimate the average joe movie watchers.

Everytime I walk into Best Buy, I see people checking out the HD displays and watching the "Pirates" and "SpiderMan" clips on the Blu displays and talking about how great it looks.

Best Buy is pushing HD in a big way and people are buying into it. What better way to complement your new HD TV purchase than with a new HD Blu Ray Player.

Sure the people with SDTV's don't care right now, but I bet when they think about finally investing in an HDTV, they will be looking at all the HD options available to them. Even if SDTV owners are in the majority now, that number is shrinking.

yes, but when they soon realize that it looks and sounds almost as good with an upconvert of their existing standard disc is where you'll likely lose them.

Nope. Most people with HD DVDs don't even opt for the HD signal from their cable/satellite provider. I think the majority of HD TVs were sold because the only option for a large TV set is one that is also HD. Plus, there are few SDTVs out there. Sure some will explore options for better PQ, but the majority will not. BD has won a niche market, and HD DVD would have been the same had it won.

You're telling me they look almost as good as an upconverting player? I beg to differ.

I am in no way a video techie. I previously owned a 42" toshiba RPTV that was 1080i and recently moved to a 720p Projector (just to save space). Even at 42" the difference was night and day! Sure some titles look better than others, but once you start watching HD, even an upconverting player doesn't look as good.

And it seems anymore that most kids have at least a 30 some inch TV in their bedrooms to play games on. Look at places like GAMEFAQS...a typical younger and more video game centric crowd and even they will tell you how much better HD is.

...again, I'm talking about Joe 6-Pack, or Sally Soccermom. I'm basing this on my own experience, with my own family. Sure, a few of the younger cousins can appreciate the difference, but my wif,e parents, 5 sets of aunts and uncles, older friends, they are impressed with the 56" size of my HDTV set, more than any particular resolution performance. None of them are able to tell the difference between a high def (HD DVD =or= Blu) movie vs a SD upconvert. They love the surround sound, scope, and PQ of both.

Again, my family might not truly represent average America, but I think they do.

Interesting thread and a disappointment to me personally. I am admittedly a latecomer to the HD world, having just bought an HD TV last year. I got into the HD-DVD world like some of you during the big sales right before Christmas. Heck I'm still waiting for my 5 free discs to show up :-) Bought way too much during the recent B1G1 sales, but my HD disc investment still doesn't come close to my "regular" DVD spending.

I guess I'm pragmatic about this... 1. there isn't much I can do about it anyway 2. there should be some killer clearance sales on the HD-DVD stuff soon 3. I tend to believe if Toshiba gives up (like someone said above) I'd expect their first BD players to be HD backward compatible. And finally I've got a pretty decent player until I get around to investing in the "winner"

I think everyone is going to have different experiences. Fortunately I've had the exact opposite. My brother's wife who was entirely against a surround system and Hi-Def players recently said, "Once you watch the movie in HD, there is no going back." This is someone who was 100% against my brother buying an A2 & PS3 and is now loving it. I have a co-worker that bought a PS3 for her husband...and the only reason was because "it also has a blu-ray player, so I can use it too." And, my in-laws were floored by the picture when we watched Bourne Ultimatum this Christmas...We need to give the everyday consumer a little more credit.

It will take a while for HD media to catch on...if it ever does. But I do think that non-video/audiophiles can and will appreciate the difference.

Last...upconverting DVD players are a big obstacle to HDM. They are marketed as 1080p or 1080i players with "near" HD quality. The fact is, if your set has a decent scaler, you won't see much of an improvement...but when they are being sold as "near" HD...people will think that is good enough. I really think CE manufacturers and retailers need to stop marketing these players as "near HD quality" or cunsumers will continue to be confused and think they are almost as good as BD or HD DVD. As you can see...I'm not sold on the whole upconversion thing. My old Tosh SD-3800 still produces an excellent picture when compared to the A2, PS3, Sony 75H, & Panny S52S. There may be subtle differences between each...but none can compare to HD.

Don't forget about the price of the hardware and software. I highly doubt the average consumer wants to pay a few hundred bucks for a new player, followed by $34.99 for Order of the Phoenix.

I think you're right too.

For instance, my father and stepmother had never seen anything in high definition before, so when they dropped by to visit a few years back, I went through a couple of the high-def channels on cable, and their response...? "That's it? It looks just like regular TV." I then fiddled with some cables to play those same channels in SD through composite video, and I got a mostly indifferent "Oh. I guess it does look better."

My more-tech-savvy-than-most grandfather was an early adopter for HD when he bought his 57" set, and he couldn't tell the difference between a high def channel and a stretched standard definition channel, let alone DVD.

I'd even make the argument that most people who've bought into HD don't fully appreciate any difference in quality, especially considering how many friends and relatives would marvel at HD quality when they were on a stretched SD channel or have their TVs in the out-of-the-box torch mode. I'd bet more people bought HDTVs because they just want a big television than because of any difference in resolution. Size, form factor, and probably some perceived prestige value in owning one all probably outweigh quality in the minds of most.

This gave me quite a laugh .. thank you :)

Sometimes when my dad drops by, I'll be watching a poor-quality episode of Scrubs on Comedy Central (on my 56" screen), and he'll ask me if it's high-def :eek: . Now, it might just be a reflex question since he knows I have a high-def setup, but he usually looks at the screen before asking. We all know how terrible Comedy Central looks, so if he can't tell the difference, then I really have to wonder.

I guess we won't be seeing that uber HD-DVD player from Onkyo then.

He also has Blu-ray.

I bet there are thousands of blu-ray collectors watching their blu-ray discs on a PS3.

Connected via the packed-in composite cable.

In my experience with some family members and friends, it's the split screen Blu-Ray demos that run in stores that impresses them.

My brother came over for Christmas, and when he saw I had Blu-Ray, he immediately told me he saw this demo and was impressed.

But yeah, I'd say many people, especially over the age of say 50, aren't going to notice or care about the difference.

Yeah, this has been my experience too. Those of my family and friends that have HD capabilities don't really seem to care about it. Heck, my dad has an HD tivo, and tivoed the SD version of Planet Earth when the HD version was just a couple channels away - after I showed him the error of his ways, he didn't seem to really care. That's just it, while they might notice a difference in HD, they don't seem to insist upon it, and I'm certain that they won't pay extra for it.

Tens of thousand I'm sure and its "AMAZING QUALITY! LOL 360 SUCKS", hehe.

My sentiments exactly. If there were affordable Profile 1.1 standalone Blu-Ray players available right now, I'd buy one today. But as it stands, the Blu-Ray hardware landscape is simply too expensive/shaky right now; and I'll likely be waiting for an affordable (read: HD-DVD player price point) Profile 2.0 player (which I assume will be the final spec) before I invest in Blu-Ray.

Seeing as how I don't see this becoming a reality until at least a couple of years from now, it's back to SD-DVD for me. I've been through all the stages (anger, denial, ...) after reading the Warner news, and now I'm finally at acceptance. I won't be returning my A3 (even though technically I can, though I may take a slight hit on the opened bonus movies), because, like many others here have said, the A3 is still a fine upconverting player (and my only one), and at least in the interim between now and when I finally move to Blu-Ray I will have some true HD titles to watch. I haven't really watched many upconverted SD titles on it since I got it, so I watched a couple yesterday as a testbed to see whether it was sound to continue buying SD titles in the meantime, and I found I can live with the PQ of upconverted SD titles.

I guess we'll have to wait and see whether or not there will be clearance prices on HD-DVD titles. And if there are, I will definitely pick up any films I am interested in.

We all know this is a crock of shit because if it were true most of use would still be stuck on SDs. Would you be saying this had HD-Dvd pulled this thing out? It is funny how some are minimizing the difference in HD now that Blu-Ray is the HD leader.

For some reason I think you're laughing at me...Am I right? The sentence itself isn't funny...so...

no big deal though. At least it made someone smile.

-Nick