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Is it me or this Payola? Digital Bits and Blu-Ray

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Is it me or this Payola? Digital Bits and Blu-Ray

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Old 07-14-07 | 01:33 PM
  #26  
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I don't know, but this seems fair and balanced.

And around the Net today, here's an indication of just how bitterly this high-def format war is being fought (and how desperate the HD-DVD camp is becoming in battling Blu-ray Disc). The Wall Street Journal today has a story on how the European Union's European Commission is investigating the HD format war. Specifically, Microsoft and Toshiba have asked the EU to investigate the Blu-ray camp for anti-trust violations (a tactic they've tried unsuccessfully here in the U.S. in the past as well). Here's the relevant text from the story: "The HD DVD camp has been lobbying the commission to draw attention to Blu-ray's tactics in the movie capital in a bid to force more studios to put their product on HD DVD, according to people familiar with the situation." In other words, the HD-DVD camp can't seem to win this war based on consumer sales alone, even after slashing their hardware prices, so now they're trying other measures to try to force the many Blu-ray exclusive Hollywood studios to support their format too.

This is what you need to know: The Christmas shopping season this year is almost certainly going to make or break HD-DVD. The HD-DVD camp knows this as well as anyone. (We suspect that this is one of the reasons Warner has delayed their TotalHD combo plans until early next year - after the holidays to see how things play out.) The HD-DVD camp's media rhetoric seems to have shifted dramatically in recent months from how they're going to win to how they're going to survive. They must know that if software sales trends continue the way they have so far this year in favor of Blu-ray, many other retailers are going to follow Blockbuster in favoring that format alone. So the HD-DVD camp is doing everything they can just to stay in the game, from additional hardware price cuts, to announcements like "HD-DVD gets 1000 movies from Amazon" (except not really because they haven't been made yet and the deal - according to Amazon - is non-exclusive and open to Blu-ray as well) and on and on. But here is the reality: According to Tom Adams, president of Adams Media (from the WSJ story), 105,000 stand-alone Blu-ray players have sold to date compared to about 150,000 HD-DVD players. However, 1.5 million PlayStation 3s are in the hands of consumers (which can all play Blu-ray movies) compared to 160,000 who have purchased HD-DVD add-on drives for the Xbox 360. So the market right now is roughly 1.6 million Blu-ray capable machines compared to 310,000 HD-DVD machines. Even if only a small fraction of PS3 owners are watching movies (and given the 2 or 3 to 1 Blu-ray software sales edge despite the smaller number of stand-alone Blu-ray machines in the market, at least some MUST be), there's still no contest. Compounding the HD-DVD camp's problems, their stand-alone hardware sales forecasts are being downgraded even despite dramatic hardware price cuts, while Blu-ray stand-alone hardware prices are slowly but steadily dropping too. In other words, price is the only advantage the HD-DVD camp has left... and by this time next year that advantage is likely to largely evaporate. (Though we wouldn't be shocked to see Toshiba cut their player prices to $199 or even lower for the holidays in a last ditch attempt to move large numbers of units.)

What all this means to you, is that Blu-ray is rapidly becoming the clear choice. In our opinion, there's just no chance that HD-DVD is going to win this format war, and the HD-DVD camp's increasingly desperate moves now should make that obvious to all. With Blu-ray hardware prices dropping, and with Fox and MGM about to start adding their catalog titles to the BD exclusive title slate of Disney, Sony, Lionsgate and now Anchor Bay/Starz (not to mention all the great BD titles coming from Warner and Paramount), if you've been thinking about getting into high-def discs, now's a great time to jump in with Blu-ray. And if you'd rather wait a little longer for lower prices and greater hardware and software selection... there's still nothing wrong with existing DVD in the meantime. Regardless, we've said from the very beginning that this HD format war wasn't going to be good for anyone. But the writing seems to be on the wall at this point and, with a little luck, we'll see the last gasps of this skirmish play out by Christmas. At this rate, the CES convention in January 2008 is likely to be VERY interesting indeed.

Last edited by Bill Geiger; 07-14-07 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 07-14-07 | 01:53 PM
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Personally, I'm waiting for his "HD DVD murdered my children" post.
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Old 07-14-07 | 02:02 PM
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I just find it funny that certain sites keep hammering away at Blockbuster's importance, whereas in previous years, they had always made it a point to discuss Blockbuster's irrelevance.

Its really a damn shame that the industry has to be fractured like this, and can't get behind one standard.

Its sad to see some of these sites being influenced by the cash. I remember I first got into online DVD sites when I was browsing www.fightdivx.com Now the sites are completly turned the other way around.

Last edited by chanster; 07-14-07 at 02:04 PM.
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Old 07-14-07 | 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist
Neutrality? Don’t confuse neutrality with credibility (and, no I am not arguing whether or not TDB are a credible source). There are plenty of writers, reviewers, and analysts, who have expressed a preference in this war. Does this automatically negate everything they say? Do we automatically avoid a site that may or may not be in tune with what we want to hear?
Pro-b, are you familiar with the concept of "conflict of interest"? It's one thing for an editorial to state a preference in a controversial subject. It's quite another when the subject of that editorial throws a party to celebrate a web site that presents itself as a media news outlet.

If Digital Bits were a network TV news program, Hunt would be fired and the network sanctioned by the FCC for participating in an event like this. But because he runs a web site that could debatably be classified as a "blog", for some reason the tenets of journalistic ethics aren't enforced.

Suppose "60 Minutes" were to run a series of stories about the competition between Coca Cola and Pepsi Cola, and in them stated that Coke was a well-managed company whose stock will only continue to rise, while Pepsi is a poorly-managed company that will be driven out of business within months, all of this based on some very controversial and contested statistics and analysis. That in itself is already questionable journalism, but now imagine that Coca Cola announces that it wants to host a 60 Minutes anniversary celebration party. If anyone from CBS even responded to that offer, much less agreed to it, that would be the end of their career, and quite possibly the end of the program.

Last edited by Josh Z; 07-14-07 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 07-14-07 | 03:01 PM
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I really liked TDB exasperated attack of AICN (Harry specifically) for choosing HD DVD as his pick. Its like two sites that were relevant 7 years ago fighting a battle online for the respective camp that they've been bought out by.

The small things make me smile.
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Old 07-14-07 | 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by gkleinman
And if they did I would politely refuse. There are ethical questions which surround a studio throwing a party for an outlet who covers them. I didn't single out HTF because I don't consider them a media outlet. While they have some reviews their core is an online community, so i think the issues are less than with a site like Bits which holds itself up as a media outlet.

I think it's just as insulting that these studios would throw a party as the sites who agree to have it thrown for them.

Personally I have a hard time thinking of throwing a party for DVD Talk in one locale because it ultimately would exclude people who absolutely should be a part of it but can't because of geographic distance. Also I'd rather put that time, effort and money into working on the site and foum... I mean isn't getting Private Messaging up and going a better treat than reading that we had some boondoggle booze party in Vegas that you couldn't attend. Or maybe something more significant to celebratate 10 years like an ad free membership zone. But I digress.

This issue isn't personal to The Digital bits or HTF. I've never had bad blood with Bill and always wish him well in his edevour. The issue is this party is a black eye to every real online journalist who works hard to earn the respect of the studios and agencies they work with. It's a negative blow to a long term effort to educate them that not all web outlets are junket whores, not all sites can be bought and that there is room for ethics and respectability online.
Well said. When the guys came flying in to defend BD (as we all knew they would), the first sentence of your post is exactly what I wanted to express. You put it mire eloquently that I could.
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Old 07-14-07 | 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z
Pro-b, are you familiar with the concept of "conflict of interest"? It's one thing for an editorial to state a preference in a controversial subject. It's quite another when the subject of that editorial throws a party to celebrate a web site that presents itself as a media news outlet.

If Digital Bits were a network TV news program, Hunt would be fired and the network sanctioned by the FCC for participating in an event like this. But because he runs a web site that could debatably be classified as a "blog", for some reason the tenets of journalistic ethics aren't enforced.

Suppose "60 Minutes" were to run a series of stories about the competition between Coca Cola and Pepsi Cola, and in them stated that Coke was a well-managed company whose stock will only continue to rise, while Pepsi is a poorly-managed company that will be driven out of business within months, all of this based on some very controversial and contested statistics and analysis. That in itself is already questionable journalism, but now imagine that Coca Cola announces that it wants to host a 60 Minutes anniversary celebration party. If anyone from CBS even responded to that offer, much less agreed to it, that would be the end of their career, and quite possibly the end of the program.
Also well said. Won't get through however.
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Old 07-14-07 | 04:05 PM
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Bill Hunt is also one of the contributing writers on that new website the Blu-ray group launched last week (hidefhollywood or whatever it's called).

There is nothing wrong with that, technically. I just wish he would change the following sentence from his "choose Blu-ray" posting to read this way (my additions are marked by **):

"But if you want our opinion as to which HD format you should buy, unless circumstances change DRAMATICALLY, in all good conscience we simply can't recommend HD-DVD - **at least until they start throwing lavish parties for us and throw money our way the way the BDA does.**"
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Old 07-14-07 | 04:45 PM
  #34  
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This is pretty disappointing. The Digital Bits was one of the first DVD sites that I went to everyday, even before I started coming here. I always had a great deal of respect for the site. Then I fell out of my daily DVD news searching routine, went back to TDB a while later and was pretty surprised at all the BD propoganda.

I'll be the first to admit, right now I am an HD-DVD guy, only because I got a 360 as a gift and then purchased the add-on. I'd be more interested in BD if it weren't for the high price tag.

All that being said, I think TDB or a site like that is at its best when it just reports the news and announcements. Want to take a side? Great, love to hear your point of view, but don't alienate people who don't share it. Stick to what brought eyes to your site: the news and announcements.

I have the highest respect for DVDTalk for always including reviews for both HD-DVD and BD. Give people the best of both worlds and let THEM decide for themselves what they want to do. To be honest, I think that's what the studios should have done: release on both formats and let consumers decide which one they prefer.

And as someone who is an editor and DVD reviewer at a newspaper, I do think it is a conflict of interest to have this party thrown by Sony. You should want to do everything in your power to avoid even the hint of impropriety. Now, I'm not saying there has been impropriety, but again, you want to avoid even the hint of it. Otherwise, it taints how others view your opinion.
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Old 07-14-07 | 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z
Pro-b, are you familiar with the concept of "conflict of interest"? It's one thing for an editorial to state a preference in a controversial subject. It's quite another when the subject of that editorial throws a party to celebrate a web site that presents itself as a media news outlet.

If Digital Bits were a network TV news program, Hunt would be fired and the network sanctioned by the FCC for participating in an event like this. But because he runs a web site that could debatably be classified as a "blog", for some reason the tenets of journalistic ethics aren't enforced.

Suppose "60 Minutes" were to run a series of stories about the competition between Coca Cola and Pepsi Cola, and in them stated that Coke was a well-managed company whose stock will only continue to rise, while Pepsi is a poorly-managed company that will be driven out of business within months, all of this based on some very controversial and contested statistics and analysis. That in itself is already questionable journalism, but now imagine that Coca Cola announces that it wants to host a 60 Minutes anniversary celebration party. If anyone from CBS even responded to that offer, much less agreed to it, that would be the end of their career, and quite possibly the end of the program.
Is this post too long to include in my sig?
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Old 07-14-07 | 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet
Personally, I'm waiting for his "HD DVD murdered my children" post.
Its coming!
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Old 07-14-07 | 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by gkleinman
I got this email today and my jaw dropped:



So let me get this straight. The Digital Bits choses Blu-Ray over HD DVD and then the Blu-Ray Group throws them and HTF a huge party.

To me this seems like Payola? But you tell me.
And your choosing to post this on your site's discussion forum, without even so much as an e-mail to ask me what this is about, is little more than rabble rousing to score points with your readership. Shame on you, Geoff.

For the record, the HD-DVD people are ALSO having a private event for our Bits/HTF group at EMA. We are letting both high-def camps have equal opportunity to demo material for our attendees and to show off their best presentations. What's more, these are but two of several private studio and industry meetings we have lined up for our group to experience during the conference.

You're free to run your site however you see fit. We, however, chose to get involved in this industry. We care about DVD and high-definition and we're not content to sit on the sidelines and just make lots of ad money when controversial situations arise. We are enthusiasts as well as journalists, we've gotten involved in many industry issues over the years as advocates for our readership, and there is a LONG tradition of those in the press taking a stand on various issues. Newspapers have been doing it for more than 100 years now. I should also point out that The Bits is almost entirely an editorial site by its very nature. My daily column is called MY TWO CENTS for a reason. We post our opinions daily and we're just as entitled to ours as you are to yours (or your public lack thereof). And when other respected journalists like Scott Hettrick at Daily Variety are doing likewise, I'm confident we're in good company.

I would think you'd know better than to level accusations like this, or at the very least that you'd have the professional courtesy to contact me directly before doing so. For a guy who works to make his site bigger than any other and who makes plenty of money himself off paid advertising from the home video industry, for you to be dropping comments like: "this party is a black eye to every real online journalist who works hard to earn the respect of the studios and agencies they work with" is absolutely shameless and absurd.

This event, like the HD-DVD event and all the other meetings we have lined up at EMA, is being held for our group BECAUSE we have the respect of the industry. We've been highly respected members of the online DVD community since Day One of the DVD format, regardless of your opinion, and our reputation in the industry needs no defense. We deal directly with, and know personally in addition to professionally, many people within the studio system and industry as a whole. Our readership, many of whom are industry insiders themselves, appreciate The Bits and our opinions because they're honest. Because we're not afraid to take a stand and say what we think is right, even when is isn't popular with some. THAT'S how you earn respect and credibility, Geoff. Not sitting on the sidelines counting your hits and ad dollars.

You were invited to this private event because our group thought it would be a nice thing to do. As a fellow DVD journalist, we have that respect for you. I'm not sorry that we extended that courtesy to you, but I am disappointed at your choice of actions. If you'd like to actually TALK with me, you know where to find me. Best wishes to you and all the readers of DVD Talk regardless.

Bill Hunt, Editor
The Digital Bits
www.thedigitalbits.com
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Old 07-14-07 | 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z
Pro-b, are you familiar with the concept of "conflict of interest"? It's one thing for an editorial to state a preference in a controversial subject. It's quite another when the subject of that editorial throws a party to celebrate a web site that presents itself as a media news outlet.

If Digital Bits were a network TV news program, Hunt would be fired and the network sanctioned by the FCC for participating in an event like this. But because he runs a web site that could debatably be classified as a "blog", for some reason the tenets of journalistic ethics aren't enforced.

Suppose "60 Minutes" were to run a series of stories about the competition between Coca Cola and Pepsi Cola, and in them stated that Coke was a well-managed company whose stock will only continue to rise, while Pepsi is a poorly-managed company that will be driven out of business within months, all of this based on some very controversial and contested statistics and analysis. That in itself is already questionable journalism, but now imagine that Coca Cola announces that it wants to host a 60 Minutes anniversary celebration party. If anyone from CBS even responded to that offer, much less agreed to it, that would be the end of their career, and quite possibly the end of the program.
Your words are surprising as well, considering I've actually defended you on a couple of occasions over at AVS Forum. That despite repeated negative comments by yourself about The Bits and me personally, in your capacity as a staffer for DVD Talk. Conflict of interest indeed.

Last edited by Bill Hunt; 07-14-07 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 07-14-07 | 05:47 PM
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Josh's post is a very good description of how this event looks. Even if you don't think there's anything wrong with this, Bill, it certainly looks fishy, especially when coupled with your utterly vehement rejection of anything relating to HD DVD.

And there's nothing wrong with a site offering equal coverage to both formats. To suggest that choosing Blu-ray over HD is a choice that gains you respect and credibility with the online community is a bit misleading, especially if your barometer is a place like AVS, which has become nothing but a breeding ground for rehashing arguments that are as old as dirt.

Edit: And taking Geoff to task for getting advertising dollars from studios won't work, either. Geoff has specifically set up a system that separates reviewers from studios so that we're not unduly influenced, and has never once told us we could not say something negative about a studio or must write something positive about a specific movie. You say telling the truth is what garners respect? That is exactly what Geoff allows his reviewers to do.

Last edited by Supermallet; 07-14-07 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 07-14-07 | 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Hunt
For the record, the HD-DVD people are ALSO having a private event for our Bits/HTF group at EMA. We are letting both high-def camps have equal opportunity to demo material for our attendees and to show off their best presentations. What's more, these are but two of several private studio and industry meetings we have lined up for our group to experience during the conference.
Private events given by an organization for a journalist that also covers that organization are unethical, period. Internet journalists unfortunately have not learned this lesson yet.
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Old 07-14-07 | 05:58 PM
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We have read your site the past year Bill. Your bias is there in writing. Don't come in here now and act offended. You have been biased from day one of this war and I have no doubt your hand is in the Blu-ray cookie jar.
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Old 07-14-07 | 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Hunt
Your words are surprising as well, considering I've actually defended you on a couple of occasions over at AVS Forum. That despite repeated negative comments by yourself about The Bits and me personally, in your capacity as a staffer for DVD Talk. Conflict of interest indeed.
Bill, this isn't personal. Even the appearance of impropriety from a site that presents as a media news outlet is harmful not only to that site, but to the entire online DVD news and reviewing community.
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Old 07-14-07 | 06:03 PM
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HD-DVD people are ALSO having a private event for our Bits/HTF group at EMA. We are letting both high-def camps have equal opportunity to demo material for our attendees and to show off their best presentations. What's more, these are but two of several private studio and industry meetings we have lined up for our group to experience during the conference.
Do two "wrongs" make a right? A demo is one thing, but a party paid for by a format is another. So first I am unclear if the (1) HD-DVD event is a demo or a party (like the Blue RAy One) If this was billed as a demo opportunity, I don't see a problem with it..but its labeled as a party PAID for by Blu-RAy.

If you are going to sit and editorialize about how great one format is, at least you should disclose the personal benefits you are directly receiving from that format.

Besides advertising revenue, I thought Web sites were run by people who were genuinely interested in seeing the best product put out.
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Old 07-14-07 | 06:04 PM
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Where in the hell are those Fox announcements that we've been promised are coming for the last several weeks?
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Old 07-14-07 | 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Suprmallet
Josh's post is a very good description of how this event looks. Even if you don't think there's anything wrong with this, Bill, it certainly looks fishy, especially when coupled with your utterly vehement rejection of anything relating to HD DVD.
Yes... allowing BOTH SIDES IN THIS FORMAT WAR equal opportunity to wine and dine our joint Bits/HTF group, in so doing to offer technology demonstrations and the opportunity to make their case must look fishy indeed, to someone who only found out about one side's plans and then made rash accusations of payola without even taking a moment to investigate.

And there's nothing wrong with a site offering equal coverage to both formats. To suggest that choosing Blu-ray over HD is a choice that gains you respect and credibility with the online community is a bit misleading, especially if your barometer is a place like AVS, which has become nothing but a breeding ground for rehashing arguments that are as old as dirt.
There's nothing wrong with chosing a format that you believe in either. And the credibility comes not from chosing Blu-ray, but from having the courage to make a choice that we believe in and that is arrived at honestly, and standing by it publically. What's more misleading is for the paid owner/editor of a site that could be considered a competitor publically accusing us of payola, when DVD Talk unquestionably accepts plenty of advertising dollars itself from the very same industry. You guys talk about professional standards? Journalistic integrity? We've laid our reputation on the line more times than I can count. We've EARNED our position of respect in the industry, and we've never attacked you or Josh Z or Geoff to do it. We've never questioned your integrity, certainly not in public and without a private word to you first. Shame on you guys.

You're all going to continue saying and posting what you think about The Bits as you see fit, but I'm not going to waste another word on responding to it.
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Old 07-14-07 | 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet
Private events given by an organization for a journalist that also covers that organization are unethical, period. Internet journalists unfortunately have not learned this lesson yet.
Studios and manufactuers throw private parties for the media all the time to promote their products. Many are not even open to all media, but only a small group of them.
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Old 07-14-07 | 06:14 PM
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Bill. I have no desire to start an argument with you. I've seen the vicious barbs between you and AICN and have no interest in engaging you in a silly and futile pissing match.

It's clear from your posts that you are more interested in attacking me than clarifying the situation or position. So be it. You are entitled to your options, no matter how malformed they may be.
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Old 07-14-07 | 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by chanster
If you are going to sit and editorialize about how great one format is, at least you should disclose the personal benefits you are directly receiving from that format.
You would have been surprised, apparently, to see open coverage of both events on The Bits and HTF in the days and weeks after the show.
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Old 07-14-07 | 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by gkleinman
Bill. I have no desire to start an argument with you. I've seen the vicious barbs between you and AICN and have no interest in engaging you in a silly and futile pissing match.

It's clear from your posts that you are more interested in attacking me than clarifying the situation or position. So be it. You are entitled to your options, no matter how malformed they may be..
You have some NERVE. You personally and publically imply that The Bits and HTF are taking payola on your own forum, without so much as a SINGLE WORD to either myself or Ron Epstein to clarify the matter, and then chose to take the holier than thou tack when I respond to defend myself? WOW. You've got balls, I'll give you that. Don't even BEGIN to talk to me about professionalism and journalistic integrity, Geoff. This engagement was initiated by you, but I'm ending it. Goodbye and best wishes.
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Old 07-14-07 | 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Hunt
Yes... allowing BOTH SIDES IN THIS FORMAT WAR equal opportunity to wine and dine our joint Bits/HTF group, in so doing to offer technology demonstrations and the opportunity to make their case must look fishy indeed, to someone who only found out about one side's plans and then made rash accusations of payola without even taking a moment to investigate.
No, Bill, they're both wrong. At my other job, we have an annual cap of accepting no more than $100 in gifts or entertainment from clients, vendors, or anyone else who might influence our work. Anything more than that is immediate grounds for termination. The same standard should apply here.

If you accept parties or gifts from both sides, what if one side throws a better party of gives better gifts than the other? Don't you see that's not an acceptable answer? It just doesn't look right no matter how you try to justify it.

Studios and manufactuers throw private parties for the media all the time to promote their products. Many are not even open to all media, but only a small group of them.
This isn't a press junket. This is a party thrown specifically for The Digital Bits by the Blu-Ray Disc Association.

And you can't couch this by saying you're "almost entirely an editorial site". Imagine the scandal if the editorial page of the New York Times supported a political candidate, followed by that candidate's party throwing the editor a celebration to congratulate him on picking the right side.

What's more misleading is for the paid owner/editor of a site that could be considered a competitor publically accusing us of payola, when DVD Talk unquestionably accepts plenty of advertising dollars itself from the very same industry. You guys talk about professional standards? Journalistic integrity?
Don't confuse what you're doing with advertising revenue. Not to be too blunt here, but are you at all familiar with the accepted ethical standards of the journalism profession?

We've laid our reputation on the line more times than I can count. We've EARNED our position of respect in the industry, and we've never attacked you or Josh Z or Geoff to do it. We've never questioned your integrity, certainly not in public and without a private word to you first. Shame on you guys.
You're trying to make this into something personal. It isn't personal. Take a step back and try to look at this from an outside perspective. This situation has the appearance of impropriety, and the appearance itself is damaging to you and to the rest of the online DVD community.

Last edited by Josh Z; 07-14-07 at 06:51 PM.
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