There has been some questions in a couple threads regarding this. So, I started this thread. Please post recommendations/experiences here.

Here is mine...

I have a Samsung HLS-7178W DLP rear projection set. I have a series 3 tivo (hd dvr with cable cards) and toshiba a1 hd-dvd connected via hdmi inputs. My Xbox 360 is connected via component.

I calibrated the set initially with DVE, but knew that I needed more. So, I researched avsforum and chose avical to do the calibration (they are based in NY and LA, but do frequent tours). Many on avs highly recommended them.

I knew the change would be good, but not as drastic as it was. It was a night and day difference on my sammy. HD broadcasts look ALOT better. I dont see as much pixelation (usually due to broadcast compression) and the colors are dead on (when before I was never completely satisfied).

A big change in my opinion was the grass during football games. I was always tweaking the user menus to get an accurate color, but was always slightly disappointed. After the calibration, it looked completely accurate.

The changes to the xbox 360 and hd-dvd were more evident on color temp and black levels. The black levels and color are super! I popped in Batman Begins and I must say, it was astounding.

I cannot recommend avical more highly. When choosing an ISF tech, be sure to research. Alot of people are starting ISF businesses and dont really know what they are doing. To get the best, you have to do research.

Im a perfectionist when it comes to picture quality and my expectations were exceeded.

Out of curiosity, how much did it cost?

It was $450 with a $50 travel fee (for my set...it might vary on setup and location).

I researched some techs in my area and it was around $300-350. But, they did not give as an extensive list of changes/services as avical provided.

They had alot of experience with the HLS series samsungs and that was really what I wanted.

I dont want to go into detail due to possible confidentiality, but their past client list would probably surprise alot of people. He discussed some of his past clients with me during the calibration. They are definately well known in the industry.

One (who did a review on their site) is Stacy Spears. He is well known on avsforum.

Congrats on the calibration, Rock. I do have one question, though. You wrote
I'm not sure I follow you. In order to start an ISF business (or present ones self as an ISF tech), one would need to be ISF trained and certified, so I don't understand how an ISF tech could not know what they were doing. Or at least, I would assume that any business using the ISF name that wasn't up to snuff would be shut down by ISF.

Well, if you had a choice between paying for a "new" ISF tech or an experienced ISF tech, which would you choose? Even if the ISF standards are high, if the experienced guy can surpass it, they are the better choice.

ISF training/certification is not that tough, frankly. Experience is a better factor to consider. Same goes for surgeons. Or automotive repair. Sex. Lots of things.

If you have a CRT-based TV, the difference can be even more important. The digital technologies tend to be closer to accurate color in the first place.

Its my understanding that to become an ISF tech is not that hard. You just have to attend the class (which goes over concepts and such) and become certified. You dont want to be an experiment by a new tech basically.

Experience really comes into play along with their calibration equipment. Especially experience with your type of display.

Unfortunately, it sounds like ISF business is starting to take off and will be offered by a major company soon (I dont know if its announced, but they will use the ISF name). There is some politics behind it that was explained to me.

The reason that is bad is because it will probably be watered down and thrown in with the price of the set at purchase time. We might have kids doing the service who get paid $10-15 an hour and dont do as good of a job. Also, they might not have the proper equipment to do a thorough job (most likely ).

Well, I can think of at least one of those things that I've always been good at, but that's another topic . (AUTO REPAIR! I meant AUTO REPAIR!! What did you THINK I meant? )

Back on topic, thanks for the replies. Now, another question. Back in the "olden days" (when CRTs ruled the day), ISF calibration was at best a temporary measure, and needed to be performed at least every two years (usually more often). But, in this day of digital microdisplay projectors, along with long-life LCD and plasma sets, is calibration more of a one-time deal? At the very least, it would seem that it should only be required once for a DLP projector. The only variable that will change over time is the light output of the bulb, and even that will be corrected when the bulb is replaced. The mirror array and color wheel, unless defective, should not drift significantly during the normal life of the set.

I think your probably correct about digital displays and the need to re-calibrate. But, I guess its possible that moving the set could potentially mess with the color wheel (similar to moving a CRT could move the guns)?? Im not for sure though.

Also, another think that was done for calibration of my set was to disable that pesky overscan!! I was at about 5% or so and now its about 1%.

I appreciate the thread Rock, I knew very little about this and now I'm pretty interested in having both of my Sony SXRDs calibrated when I get the cash together.

I would love to get my set ISF calibrated, but $300-$500 is a lot for me to spend. Maybe I'll ask for it for my birthday.

I had my 65" Mits rear projection CRT set complete ISF calibrated several months ago and the improvement was stunning. I had done some tweaking and it helped but there was also a night and day difference with the calibration. The colors are incredible and the blacks are deep as ink. The improvement in the detail is also amazing. I did research and chose a well respected guy who had extensive experience with Mitsubishi sets. He spent almost ten hours at my house getting everything just right and also used tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment. A lot of guys will eyeball things but this one utilized very sensitive gear to get the settings perfect. He even brought along a spare gun and rid me of some nasty burn in. I'm really pleased and think I have a great example of how a properly calibrated CRT still offers the best picture in my opinion.

Edit to add: Another thing I found while researching was that there's a problem that comes up sometimes with my make and model where some soldering on a board can crack and throw your convergence totally out of whack. I mentioned it to the calibrator and he was very familiar with it. I asked him if he could reflow it while he was here to assure that I wouldn't have the problem. In doing so he discovered that mine was indeed starting to crack and it was a matter of time before I showed symptoms. He reflowed it with the same speed and skill that he demonstrated in the service menu. He knew his way around my set with ease. This is an example of where the experienced guy is what you want.

I had my initial calibration from Avical in 10/03 when I had my set broken in from the new purchase. I've since had Eliab out every 8-10 months for a re-cal. Re-cal is less expensive so the initial calibration would be more expensive unless you're asking for some new, time-consuming modifications on a re-cal.

I have an RPTV, and I can tell you the stuff I've watched Eliab do is more just as much art as it is science. Sure, using the equipment to obtain various readings on grayscale and such is scientific, but he's also done quite a bit of adjustments for me "by eye", and to me that kind of skill comes from natural talent + experience.

I don't know if the DLP sets have as much drift as an RPTV, but as long as I am using my RPTV, I well have Avical re-calibrate it regularly. ~$250 or so a year is well worth it, and considering I spend probably 10x-15x that on DVD's per year, it doesn't seem to be very much. Especially for those who have spent north of $2K on a display, I can't imagine why you wouldn't want to squeeze every drop out of it you can.

Oh, I agree totally. I didn't mean to indicate that Craig didn't use both as well. I was just impressed with the equipment that was used and am aware that many guys don't make that extensive of an investment in gear. He didn't completely rely on it by any means.

Yep I agree too....They definately rely on the equipment, but also there is a talent to it.

If they dont have the proper equipment, a great calibration just cant be done.

bump

I've got a 65" Mits RPTV. I'd like to get it calibrated. Where do I start to look for a technician? I live in Wichita, KS.

You can start here...

http://www.imagingscience.com/

But, I would suggest doing some research on avsforum for your area...Maybe you can find some reviews there.

Also, be sure to check with numerous techs in your area. Find out what they have experience with, what equipment they have and what they will do.

You want to be sure to find a good one.

Continuing our disciussion from the other thread ill just say this Rock, I think the area where we are not agreeing is when to bring someone out to do a optimization of your TV. Your talking about blindly bringing someone out to do a top level optimization of your TV just because its an expensive TV and you ought to get the best possible picture that you can. This is what I absolutly disagree with. Alot of TV's can look absolutly awsome out of the box and having a company come out and do this kind of optimization would have very little effect for the price being paid.

I feel you shouldnt bring someone out to do an optimization of the non user settings until after you do a proper calibration of the user settings and your still unhappy with the picture or if you know something is out of whack or want something adjusted like the color temp from viewing Kodak color correction filters. Again were talking about alot of money, anywhere from 450-1000 dollars. I just dont agree with bringing people out to adjust your TV for that kind of money if your not seeing anything wrong with your current picture.

As I said, as a TV ages a lot of things can go wrong that can be fixed with this kind of service visit so later down the road something like this might be a route I take if I start seeing my image degrade. If you have the proper tools and the proper knowhow you can do an awsome job at setting up your TV and you can even omnitor things like color balance without ever bringing anyone into the house.

A quote from CNET's article on TV calibration

"For true videophiles, the most effective--and expensive--way to get theaterlike pictures is to have the display professionally calibrated. But some TVs perform well enough out of the box that you may not consider professional service a worthwhile investment"

It just depends on what TV you get and how happy you are with the picture. Believe it or not, some TV's would benefit very little from a top notch calibration, at least in terms of the money spent to improvment of picture quality. I will say that the one exception to this that I would have is a front or rear projection. I would absolutly bring someone out to check and see if the image sharpness was properly set from the 3 guns or the lens was properly focusing. That would really be the only preemtive things I would have done to my set. As I dont have those kind of sets its not a concern.

The thing I dont understand the most about just blindly bringing someone out to adjust your TV is that everyone is different. While some may like a true 6500k color temp, there are other who would find a little warmer setting more appealing and others who would actually find it a little better being a little bit cooler. Everyone is different and nobody will agree 100% that something looks perfect. I just dont understand calling someone out to adjust your set if your absolutly 100% content with it. Again if it was 100-200 bucks than hell why not but were talking about possibly up to a 1000 dollar investment. Just not worth it to me to just toss that money out the dorr without having a valid reason, at least something more than hoping the picture will be significantly improved when alot of times it wont.

PS..

In my experience with the 2 dlp sets (both sammys) and 1 CRT (MITs) that ive owned, ISF Calibration made a huge difference over my tweaking the settings in the user menu. Im just going by my experience.

I do agree that research should be done. You must research your model and research for a good tech.

Of course if your happy then by all means dont spend the money, but Im a perfectionist and now my screen is perfect. Like I said, I had tweaked it to get the best possible picture and after calibration even my fiancee noticed the difference.

ISF calibration can get your set as close to NTSC standards as possible. Thats the benefit. You are seeing the material exactly the way the director/filmaker intended.

The guy who did my set calibrates displays/monitors for the studios. Hell, he worked on the DVE disc (he also told me the exact reason the hd-dvd of DVE was delayed).

They know their sh|t.

Im a perfectionist and it was worth the money to me. By all means, if anyone is happy with their set out of the box or after tweaking the user menus, then ISF calibration might not be a good fit. BUT, I think even someone who is happy with their set could be even happier after ISF calibration.

This kind of know how comes with experience plain and simple. I have been in photography for a long time now and I do color adjustments to my film in increments of 5 units which is very small. The average person couldn't tell the difference between 5 units of say Magenta and even 15 units of Magenta without having some kind of aid. I can do slight color corrections like this across the board simply because I have been doing it for so long. When I started I couldn't do it without an aid as well. Its all about experience plain and simple. You do this kind of stuff everyday and it becomes 2nd nature to you.

If I did get someone to calibrate my set I would make sure it was someone who had been doing it for a long long time. That would be a mandatory prerequisite

PS..

In all fairness tho, this whole topic wasnt about your history with sets or even my history with sets. It was about wether or not other people should spend this kind of money and get thier sets calibrated. I have no doubt that there are sets out there that will look night and day difference after a professional calibration. I never argued that fact. I was simply saying that not every set requires this kind of calibration out of the box and it will benefit some peole alot more than others.

I was never saying dont get your set professionally calibrated. I simply said that with the proper know how and the proper tools you can get alot of sets to look awsome without paying that kind of money for a professional. If you have the money and you want this done then by all means get it done. People hould realize that the improvment it made to yours will not necessarily translate the same over to thier set.

Bottom line you should absolutly research the set you own. Are you happy with your picture or not happy? Have you had it properly calibrated using the user settings? How much cash do you have? Is it worth spending up to a 1000 of your money to get anywhere from slightly to greatly improved picture?

My advice was simply to learn how to properly calibrate your own set using the user functions and even invest in some tools like some Kodak color correction filters. Once you have done this you will be in a much better position to make the decision on wether you need or want a professional calibration of your set. For me its just not worth it at this point in time, for Rocko it was. Everyone is different and everyone needs to make thier own choice in this matter. The more you know about calibrations and your own set the better off youll be in deciding. I personally feel that this kind of calibration is for a select few people that either have certain kinds of displays or just want absoultly the best possible picture regardless of price after all your talking about increasing the cost of the Tv itself anywhere from 20-45% depending on what set you get and how expensive it is to calibrate.

And again I am not saying that someone wont be happier if they get thier set calibrated but is it worth the money spent. I mean alot of people out there would have been happier if they had just had more money to get that better HDTV that was on the shelf instead of the one the ended up getting. I know I sure would have liked the 8000 Pioneer 1080p Plasma Elite but I wanst going to spend that kind of cash on a display. I sure know that not everyone gets the TV they would have gotten if price werent a factor. The question isnt if the people will be happier with thier picture after getting this kind of calibration but if it was worth the money they spent.


PS...

I understand your point. I just disagree.

I think there are more people out there that could really benefit from this service than you realize.

If someone is happy with their set, thats great...but Im trying to inform people that there is a possibility their set could perform even better (like mine did).

Of course if someone's funds are tight they should not spend it on this, but that goes with just about anything.

IMO, the majority of tv sets out there are not only not calibrated right, they are not capable of a perfect picture without professional help.

Best Buy, Circuit City and so on doesnt help this fact.

For those interested in researching this, here is a thread on avs for customer reports...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...26#post8242226

I absolutly agree but you can get damn close if you know what your doing and have the right tools.

The point I was trying to make but didnt get across to well at the end there was asking people to spend this kind of money on a brand new TV is a tough sell. Do you have someone buy a 2000 TV and then spend another 750-1000 calibrating it or would that person rather just take that extra 750-1000 and just buy a better HDTV. That was the point I was trying to make.

When your talking about doing these kind of calibrations for brand new TV's it really is like adding that 20%-45% to the price of the TV depending again on the cost of the TV and the cost of the calibration. I would bet that people would much rather take that kind of money and improve the TV they were going to buy then putting it into calibration or in other words ill bet someone would rather get that 3000 dollar HDTV than that 2000 HDTV and then get the 1000 dollar calibration for it and who knows the picture on the 3k HDTV might be better than the 2k HDTV calibrated. Obviously this goes for people that have fixed budgets and I would think that reflects the majority of people buying HDTV's. I dont know many people that have an unlimited budget when it comes to buying TV's.

I will agree with you in the fact that if money is not an option and you want the best picture you can get regardless of price then you should without a doubt get it professionally calibrated. Again I am perfectly aware that it will improve pretty much everyones display and even some dsplays greatly but I just dont know if its worth the price they are charging. Too bad you cant see what kind of improvment it would make before commiting to buy it. That would kill this argument in a second flat. However that is not the case and you just dont know how much its going to improve your picture until you have it done. Its basically a gamble that costs a lot of money. Just how big of a winner you are for the money spent is unknown. Some people will win big and some people wont with alot of people somewhere in the middle.

PS...

No, a good calibration is around $250-500 depending on the services provided...if you spend much more than that, then you are probably getting ripped off.

Avical costs $450 for their highest level of service ($50 travel fee depending on location) and that was the highest that I saw doing my research.

Most of the others in my area were around $300. I picked avical due to their experience with my set and the recommendations on avsforum.

You can check the prices via the tech's websites by finding them on that isf website I posted earlier.

Again, when looking for service, be sure to ask what they will do to your tv.