Digital Bits: "HD-DVD is quietly making Blu-ray Disc look pretty silly"
08-25-06 | 04:20 PM
#1
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Digital Bits: "HD-DVD is quietly making Blu-ray Disc look pretty silly"
Looks like Bill Hunt has seen the light: 
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents
Finally, here's that bit of great HD-DVD news... Toshiba has officially released version 2.0 of their firmware for the HD-A1 and HD-XA1 HD-DVD players. It's available now via Ethernet download (just follow your player's instructions, as listed in the manual). According to Toshiba: "This firmware update adds support for certain anticipated network delivered content in future HD DVD discs, improves certain video and audio processing capabilities, as well as addresses certain disc playback and HDMI/DVI related problems identified by Toshiba." So what exactly does that mean? Check THIS out: "Support for Dolby True HD is extended from two channels to 5.1, which will be available in full resolution on the HDMI and analog 5.1 outputs and down-mixed to a DTS bit stream on the SPDIF output." FULL 5.1 TrueHD support! Keep in mind, the player was shipped with 2.0 support only. A lot of people are already talking about the new firmware over at AVS Forum, and it sounds as if it's pretty great. Guess I know what I'll be doing tonight! You can find official details about the firmware update here at Toshiba's HD-DVD website. Click on "Support," then "Firmware Update V2.0" to read more specifics. Thanks to Bits reader Michael G. for the heads-up.
That's a very cool development, I'll tell you. I'm somewhat surprised to find myself saying this, but HD-DVD is quietly making Blu-ray Disc look pretty silly. Motivated as I've been by a desire to see this format war end quickly, I was quick to sing the potential praises of Blu-ray Disc early on, simply because it seemed to have the clear advantages of better technology and much broader studio support, plus the potential market-share dominance of the forthcoming PS3 game system. And to be honest, my very early experiences with HD-DVD were disappointing. Since that time, however, an interesting this has happened... the early Blu-ray experience has turned out to be pretty lackluster too. Discs have looked bad, the Samsung player is a disaster and Sony's over-priced the PS3 right out of the market (you'll be able to buy both an Xbox 360 AND a Nintendo Wii for the price of a PS3). Sony and their BD camp allies are just not delivering on the promise of their format - period. Meanwhile, HD-DVD software and Toshiba's hardware (via these firmware updates) just keeps getting better and better. And get this: Sony STILL can't get their 50GB dual-layered Blu-ray Discs to work right on the existing and prototype players. The current Samsung player, as shipped, will not play them. How do you like them apples? Ouch.
If the BD camp doesn't do something dramatic and fast... they will have lost the hearts and minds of the early adopters to HD-DVD. To my thinking at least, HD-DVD is looking better and better all the time... and it seems to me it's now the format to beat.
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents
Finally, here's that bit of great HD-DVD news... Toshiba has officially released version 2.0 of their firmware for the HD-A1 and HD-XA1 HD-DVD players. It's available now via Ethernet download (just follow your player's instructions, as listed in the manual). According to Toshiba: "This firmware update adds support for certain anticipated network delivered content in future HD DVD discs, improves certain video and audio processing capabilities, as well as addresses certain disc playback and HDMI/DVI related problems identified by Toshiba." So what exactly does that mean? Check THIS out: "Support for Dolby True HD is extended from two channels to 5.1, which will be available in full resolution on the HDMI and analog 5.1 outputs and down-mixed to a DTS bit stream on the SPDIF output." FULL 5.1 TrueHD support! Keep in mind, the player was shipped with 2.0 support only. A lot of people are already talking about the new firmware over at AVS Forum, and it sounds as if it's pretty great. Guess I know what I'll be doing tonight! You can find official details about the firmware update here at Toshiba's HD-DVD website. Click on "Support," then "Firmware Update V2.0" to read more specifics. Thanks to Bits reader Michael G. for the heads-up.
That's a very cool development, I'll tell you. I'm somewhat surprised to find myself saying this, but HD-DVD is quietly making Blu-ray Disc look pretty silly. Motivated as I've been by a desire to see this format war end quickly, I was quick to sing the potential praises of Blu-ray Disc early on, simply because it seemed to have the clear advantages of better technology and much broader studio support, plus the potential market-share dominance of the forthcoming PS3 game system. And to be honest, my very early experiences with HD-DVD were disappointing. Since that time, however, an interesting this has happened... the early Blu-ray experience has turned out to be pretty lackluster too. Discs have looked bad, the Samsung player is a disaster and Sony's over-priced the PS3 right out of the market (you'll be able to buy both an Xbox 360 AND a Nintendo Wii for the price of a PS3). Sony and their BD camp allies are just not delivering on the promise of their format - period. Meanwhile, HD-DVD software and Toshiba's hardware (via these firmware updates) just keeps getting better and better. And get this: Sony STILL can't get their 50GB dual-layered Blu-ray Discs to work right on the existing and prototype players. The current Samsung player, as shipped, will not play them. How do you like them apples? Ouch.
If the BD camp doesn't do something dramatic and fast... they will have lost the hearts and minds of the early adopters to HD-DVD. To my thinking at least, HD-DVD is looking better and better all the time... and it seems to me it's now the format to beat.
08-25-06 | 06:43 PM
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Motivated as I've been by a desire to see this format war end quickly, I was quick to sing the potential praises of Blu-ray Disc early on
08-25-06 | 11:13 PM
#7
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It's a medical miracle: Man removes head from own ass.
08-26-06 | 12:59 AM
#9
Banned by request
Also, he's still downplaying the effect of HD DVD. "HD DVD is quietly making Blu-ray look pretty silly." Um, no, HD DVD is loudly making Blu-ray look useless. I think Toshiba should start posting this all over their ads, though.
"HD DVD: Making Blu-ray look silly since 2006."
08-26-06 | 03:23 AM
#10
Banned by request
Bill's comments about the Samsung not being able to play 50GB discs have sparked a heated debate on AVS, so I shot him an email.
I'll post any reply that he gives me.
Hi there Bill,
In your latest "My Two Cents" article, you mention the following:
"And get this: Sony STILL can't get their 50GB dual-layered Blu-ray Discs to work right on the existing and prototype players. The current Samsung player, as shipped, will not play them. How do you like them apples? Ouch."
This has sparked a massive debate on the AVS forums as to the accuracy of your statements. And, personally, I'm not sure how to take it, either. If what you're saying is true, then the Samsung player as released does not conform to the mandatory Blu-ray spec, which calls for mandatory dual-layer media playback. How can they, according to the BDA, actually put the Blu-ray logo on their player? It seems somewhat bizarre to me that Samsung would be allowed to release a product without conforming to the full mandatory Blu-ray spec.
So, if I may ask, where did you get this information? Do you have anything to back it up?
To be clear, I'm not trying to attack you. I'm no friend of Blu-ray at the moment, but the implications of this statement are, to me, shocking. If it's true, then it may be a major blow to the entire BDA. So, I simply want to make sure that it is, in fact, true, because the last thing this format war needs is more rumors on either side.
Thanks for taking the time to read my email and I anxiously await your answer.
Sincerely,
Daniel
In your latest "My Two Cents" article, you mention the following:
"And get this: Sony STILL can't get their 50GB dual-layered Blu-ray Discs to work right on the existing and prototype players. The current Samsung player, as shipped, will not play them. How do you like them apples? Ouch."
This has sparked a massive debate on the AVS forums as to the accuracy of your statements. And, personally, I'm not sure how to take it, either. If what you're saying is true, then the Samsung player as released does not conform to the mandatory Blu-ray spec, which calls for mandatory dual-layer media playback. How can they, according to the BDA, actually put the Blu-ray logo on their player? It seems somewhat bizarre to me that Samsung would be allowed to release a product without conforming to the full mandatory Blu-ray spec.
So, if I may ask, where did you get this information? Do you have anything to back it up?
To be clear, I'm not trying to attack you. I'm no friend of Blu-ray at the moment, but the implications of this statement are, to me, shocking. If it's true, then it may be a major blow to the entire BDA. So, I simply want to make sure that it is, in fact, true, because the last thing this format war needs is more rumors on either side.
Thanks for taking the time to read my email and I anxiously await your answer.
Sincerely,
Daniel
08-27-06 | 03:48 AM
#11
Banned by request
Bill's reply:
A far more thorough response than I expected, especially considering the angry email someone here got from Bill recently.
This whole situation seems indicative of the entire BD philosophy up until now. The engineers of the current players didn't have working 50GB discs to test their players with, so they just took a shot in the dark and, surprise, got it wrong.
Originally Posted by Bill Hunt via email
Pretty much everything I say sparks a massive debate over at AVS these days. If I say anything critical of HD-DVD, those folks spank me for it on the forums. Likewise with Blu-ray. It seems to go with the territory in the high-def format war.
For the record, my information comes from multiple sources - some in key positions at some of the Blu-ray Disc supporting companies, some in other industry positions involved with either the testing or production discs in both high-def formats - speaking to me off the record. The problem is not with the discs per se, it's with the hardware. Samsung didn't have final product 50 GB movie discs to test their firmware with before they launched, so they're having problems getting the players working with these discs now. I believe Sony and Pioneer are also working hard to resolve compatibility issues. I'm sure all of these issues are fixable with firmware upgrades, and I have no doubt that the issues WILL be fixed. But up until a couple weeks ago, I was told Samsung at least was STILL having problems. As you can imagine, there are a few studios that are anxious to get these 50 GB BD-ROM discs to work properly, because there are a number of longer films waiting on them. Obviously, Sony has delayed Lawrence of Arabia and Black Hawk Down for this very reason. I know of other titles waiting on the 50 GB disc compatibility issue being worked out as well.
The interview that Ben Feingold did last week about how Sony will have at least 2 of the 50GB titles out this year... that was all about reassuring the restless folks in their own camp that the discs are coming, as well as those in the media and the early adopter community. It's amazing how many people have e-mailed me that story as proof that I'm wrong about this issue, but you'll notice that no specific dates or other information is given. It's classic studio smoke and mirrors - a bit of P.R. damage control. They know that BD has been taking some hits in the media and with the early adopter community, and they're anxious to show things in a more positive light. And keep in mind that I say all this as someone who has been very positive about Blu-ray Disc... or at least the format's potential. But Sony and their camp has a long way to go to really start delivering on it. It seems to me that the HD-DVD camp is delivering 1) more titles 2) somewhat better looking titles 3) titles with more features - even if most of them are just ported over from standard DVD - and 4) select titles with more advanced interactivity. The Blu-ray Disc camp is lagging behind, a lot more than I thought they would. They can still catch up certainly, but I think they really need to start delivering some big, great titles. Fox needs to announce titles. Disney needs to announce BETTER titles. It's not exactly inspiring confidence when Disney is saying to their own shareholders that they have no intention of releasing Cars and Pirates on BD this year, while meanwhile the HD-DVD camp has announced several big day-and-date releases. We need firm street dates for Pioneer and Sony hardware. They need to get busy.
You can feel free to post this on AVS if you like. I'd prefer not to post over there myself, as it's always ends of being a frustrating experience at best.
Best to you, Daniel! (and best to all of you AVS guys... like me or not).
Bill
For the record, my information comes from multiple sources - some in key positions at some of the Blu-ray Disc supporting companies, some in other industry positions involved with either the testing or production discs in both high-def formats - speaking to me off the record. The problem is not with the discs per se, it's with the hardware. Samsung didn't have final product 50 GB movie discs to test their firmware with before they launched, so they're having problems getting the players working with these discs now. I believe Sony and Pioneer are also working hard to resolve compatibility issues. I'm sure all of these issues are fixable with firmware upgrades, and I have no doubt that the issues WILL be fixed. But up until a couple weeks ago, I was told Samsung at least was STILL having problems. As you can imagine, there are a few studios that are anxious to get these 50 GB BD-ROM discs to work properly, because there are a number of longer films waiting on them. Obviously, Sony has delayed Lawrence of Arabia and Black Hawk Down for this very reason. I know of other titles waiting on the 50 GB disc compatibility issue being worked out as well.
The interview that Ben Feingold did last week about how Sony will have at least 2 of the 50GB titles out this year... that was all about reassuring the restless folks in their own camp that the discs are coming, as well as those in the media and the early adopter community. It's amazing how many people have e-mailed me that story as proof that I'm wrong about this issue, but you'll notice that no specific dates or other information is given. It's classic studio smoke and mirrors - a bit of P.R. damage control. They know that BD has been taking some hits in the media and with the early adopter community, and they're anxious to show things in a more positive light. And keep in mind that I say all this as someone who has been very positive about Blu-ray Disc... or at least the format's potential. But Sony and their camp has a long way to go to really start delivering on it. It seems to me that the HD-DVD camp is delivering 1) more titles 2) somewhat better looking titles 3) titles with more features - even if most of them are just ported over from standard DVD - and 4) select titles with more advanced interactivity. The Blu-ray Disc camp is lagging behind, a lot more than I thought they would. They can still catch up certainly, but I think they really need to start delivering some big, great titles. Fox needs to announce titles. Disney needs to announce BETTER titles. It's not exactly inspiring confidence when Disney is saying to their own shareholders that they have no intention of releasing Cars and Pirates on BD this year, while meanwhile the HD-DVD camp has announced several big day-and-date releases. We need firm street dates for Pioneer and Sony hardware. They need to get busy.
You can feel free to post this on AVS if you like. I'd prefer not to post over there myself, as it's always ends of being a frustrating experience at best.
Best to you, Daniel! (and best to all of you AVS guys... like me or not).
Bill
This whole situation seems indicative of the entire BD philosophy up until now. The engineers of the current players didn't have working 50GB discs to test their players with, so they just took a shot in the dark and, surprise, got it wrong.
08-27-06 | 11:53 AM
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thanks for posting Bill's reply. It's good to hear some of those comments, and I also agree that those 50gb comments were absolutely damage control. All they can do is spout off spec this and spec that, DELIVER the product, not talk.
08-27-06 | 11:59 AM
#14
DVD Talk Legend
"Somewhat better looking titles", huh?
Hunt's recent comments are 'somewhat' better than they used to be, but I'm sure that if Blu-ray were to turn things around he'll be the first person to shout from the rooftops how he told everyone so.
Hunt's recent comments are 'somewhat' better than they used to be, but I'm sure that if Blu-ray were to turn things around he'll be the first person to shout from the rooftops how he told everyone so.
08-27-06 | 01:14 PM
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From: Sunny Cornwall in the UK
Early adopters are the ones with the big money to spend, and usually give the manufacturers their best profits. As far as I can see HD-DVD has already won this format war, Blu-ray players would almost need to be given away free if they want to have any chance to catch up.
HD-dvd ...... affordable players, a good selection of titles
Blu-ray ...... Ummmmmm ....... nothing so far
I predict this will be all over by Xmas.
HD-dvd ...... affordable players, a good selection of titles
Blu-ray ...... Ummmmmm ....... nothing so far
I predict this will be all over by Xmas.
Last edited by sarah99; 08-27-06 at 01:17 PM.
08-27-06 | 02:09 PM
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I think, more than Bill Hunt's attitude, the important thing to note is the confirmation that even the BD50's being produced that work still don't conform to the BD spec.
08-27-06 | 02:16 PM
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From: NYC
Originally Posted by Suprmallet
I think, more than Bill Hunt's attitude, the important thing to note is the confirmation that even the BD50's being produced that work still don't conform to the BD spec.
Honestly, it would have been nice had they actually put up a fight.
08-27-06 | 02:21 PM
#18
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So, I guess the question is, will it be easier to change the players to fit the current discs, or change the discs so they fit the players? And how soon can they do either?
My hope is that they won't be able to through 2007.
My hope is that they won't be able to through 2007.
08-27-06 | 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Suprmallet
So, I guess the question is, will it be easier to change the players to fit the current discs, or change the discs so they fit the players? And how soon can they do either?
My hope is that they won't be able to through 2007.
My hope is that they won't be able to through 2007.
Will all BD players have upgradeable firmware?
This is obviously assuming that it would even fix the problem.
08-27-06 | 02:33 PM
#20
Banned by request
I cannot imagine a PS3 game requiring a DL BD. If it did, it would probably cost over $100 and have load times that will let you read War and Peace.
As for movies, well, it doesn't have to play DL media because I doubt we'll see Sony release any for a long time, if ever.
As for movies, well, it doesn't have to play DL media because I doubt we'll see Sony release any for a long time, if ever.
08-27-06 | 04:15 PM
#21
DVD Talk Gold Edition
On top of this news about troubles with BD50, one of the high ups at Sony recently said that production has not yet begun on the PS3. I like Sony, but I'm anticipating a big stumble and fall by them later on this year.
08-27-06 | 08:00 PM
#22
DVD Talk God
Originally Posted by fmian
On top of this news about troubles with BD50, one of the high ups at Sony recently said that production has not yet begun on the PS3. I like Sony, but I'm anticipating a big stumble and fall by them later on this year.
I think it has been pointed out that the 360 went into production in mid-september, so I guess I think they can still pull it out. However, it is a new technology and I would think they would need more time even after they are in production to get things fairly bug free. But you do also have Sony wanting a lot more units ready for a global launch. That won't happen, I think.
I am madly curious to see what kind of premium the PS3 can get on Ebay. I remember selling a PS2 on Ebay for $700. But since this will start only $100 less, how high can it climb? The same percentage would be $1,500. I can't see that happening, but who knows.
08-27-06 | 09:05 PM
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From: Heart of the Heart
Originally Posted by Suprmallet
Also, he's still downplaying the effect of HD DVD. "HD DVD is quietly making Blu-ray look pretty silly." Um, no, HD DVD is loudly making Blu-ray look useless. I think Toshiba should start posting this all over their ads, though.
"HD DVD: Making Blu-ray look silly since 2006."
08-27-06 | 09:11 PM
#24
DVD Talk Legend
I definitely agree with the above. HD DVD is not taking advantage of all of the Blu-ray problems. Best Buy still promotes the hell out of Blu-ray and hides HD DVD away in a corner. If HD DVD ends up losing it will be this missed opportunity.
HD DVD has won the hearts of many of the early adopters, but we will not be the factor that decides the war. When Blu-ray gets the 50GB discs on the market and has more affordable and more reliable players many of the early adopters will buy both formats which will benefit Blu-ray a lot more than HD DVD.
I'm basically giving HD DVD all of 2007. If it looks like Blu-ray has righted the ship and the consumers are backing it and no studios are crossing over to HD DVD by next Christmas I will buy a Blu-ray player in 2008 from hopefully Denon by then and come aboard. In the meantime I'm putting all my funds into an HD DVD collection.
HD DVD has won the hearts of many of the early adopters, but we will not be the factor that decides the war. When Blu-ray gets the 50GB discs on the market and has more affordable and more reliable players many of the early adopters will buy both formats which will benefit Blu-ray a lot more than HD DVD.
I'm basically giving HD DVD all of 2007. If it looks like Blu-ray has righted the ship and the consumers are backing it and no studios are crossing over to HD DVD by next Christmas I will buy a Blu-ray player in 2008 from hopefully Denon by then and come aboard. In the meantime I'm putting all my funds into an HD DVD collection.
Last edited by darkside; 08-27-06 at 09:16 PM.
08-27-06 | 09:19 PM
#25
DVD Talk Godfather
Honestly, I can't think of too many Fox movies that I need to see on Blu-Ray. If Disney/Buena Vista comes over, that will be enough for me. I'm not buy a BD player just to see Fox movies in HD. Not even the trilogy.*
* (Home Alone)
* (Home Alone)