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Old 06-02-18, 11:58 PM   #1
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Is it OK to advocate murder here?

Someone started a thread today calling for homeless people to be stomped on like the cockroaches they are. He later clarified he only meant homeless junkies.

A mod responded by moving the thread from wherever it was (Other, I guess) to Politics, since OP was blaming the homeless junkie problem on liberals. Which probably runs afoul of the “no generalizing” rule, but whatever.

I made a post suggesting that maybe instead of moving the “hey, let’s crush homeless junkies because they’re cockroaches” thread, it should have been deleted or at least locked.

In response, a mod deleted my post.

I guess my question is what kind of forum is this? Am I really the only one who has an issue with that kind of violent, disgusting language about human beings, even homeless, drug-addicted human beings? To the point where even suggesting that maybe that kind of talk doesn’t belong here gets my post deleted?
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Old 06-03-18, 12:26 AM   #2
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

You are not the only one. That is a sickening way to speak of some of the most vulnerable people in our nation.
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Old 06-03-18, 12:48 AM   #3
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

Wow... That thread.
Really makes you wonder about this place.
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Old 06-03-18, 06:19 AM   #4
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

Some people take Freedom of Speech to a whole new level.
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Old 06-03-18, 06:55 AM   #5
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

Yet when you want to voice a strong opinion towards that person, guess who gets suspended?

I'm guessing that reporting someone that advocates murdering will do nothing.
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Old 06-03-18, 03:20 PM   #6
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by story View Post
You are not the only one. That is a sickening way to speak of some of the most vulnerable people in our nation.
I agree with your post that we should never be advocating violence toward anyone (except in self-defense).

Perhaps it should be noted that there have been others advocating violence against others engaged in legal activities. We even had a case of someone advocating the assassination of a politician currently holding office.

When people defend or don't speak out against such sentiments, they shouldn't be surprised when someone else goes down that path.
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Old 06-03-18, 03:40 PM   #7
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

Upon further review, the homeless thread was closed. My initial reaction on most threads is not to close them or suspend people. While I don't believe we should have a wild west here where anything goes like the Yahoo comment section, I also believe in a Laissez-faire approach to the forums. My initial thought is that the OP's point (to crush homeless like a bug) was so stupid that the forum would easily show how ridiculous it was by bringing up the fact that mental health facilities had been closed in order to save money and give people tax breaks. That many of the homeless need access to mental health counseling and medication, but do not have the access they need. There was an opportunity to show the real cause of the mentally ill running in the homeless community.

To be honest with you, the situation where someone reports a post of a poster saying "Fuck you asshole" to someone is a clear violation of the rules and is a personal attack. I may only have 5 min to look at the RTP and make a decision. There may have been other things leading up to that pages before, but since no one said anything about it, I don't always have the time to read back pages and pages to figure out what else might have lead to the personal attack and if other actions should be taken.

What I don't like is when one of the mods makes a call and the thread gets sidetracked with, "Mod, you're wrong, why don't you do your fucking job?! I guess this place just loves racists and bigots and murderers " A lot of things can be handed via RTP, PM, or Feedback.
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Old 06-03-18, 03:41 PM   #8
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

I'm curious what you guys think about this type of stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
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Old 06-04-18, 03:16 PM   #9
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBigDave View Post
I'm curious what you guys think about this type of stuff.
I'll bite.

Quote:
Stop putting the comfort of racists over the well-being of the people they're trying to dehumanize
Nothing violent here, and a pretty basic statement. People are being dehumanized by racists, as they have been for centuries. Instead of trying not to hurt the racist's feelings ("Excuse me kind sir. You calling that man a *********** is not appropriate, and I don't mean to interject, but if you really feel that way about them, you should still keep it to yourself if you don't mind. Thank you for your time."), respect the fact that they don't give a shit, stop playing games and just call them a racist for doing and saying blatantly racist things.

Quote:
Throw a drink at a racist
Punch a nazi
Shame and shun a supremacist
The first is a reference to a recent event. As is the second, albeit a bit less recent. The third is just a catch-all for anyone doing/saying supremacist things. The first two are advocating for specific types of assault; a non-violent response to racists, and a violent one towards nazis. That said, toning down the assault/violence is probably a better measure, though, especially in light of the "anti racists are as bad as the real racists!" garbage-tier arguments that get made. Sure, white supremacists and nationalists advocate for systems in which non-whites are lesser human beings that may deserve to be slaughtered if they don't comply with the goals of the ethnostate, while the "just racist, but not violent" allies of the supremacists and nationalists sit idly by saying "I make racist jokes because they're funny, but I don't get involved in politics," buuuuuuuuut... if someone makes them feel bad for those beliefs, or subjects them to a lesser version of the violence they intend to unleash on others, then who's the real racist/nazi/supremacist, right?
(I really do think toning down the violent rhetoric is for the best, though, if for no other reason than the fact that it allows nazis/supremacists to use it as a veneer of being the real victims; "See?? I'm just TALKING about a plan that inevitably leads to mass genocide, but they want to PUNCH me for it! So much for the tolerant left!")

Quote:
Coddling assholes because we don't know how to be discerning with our empathy & sympathy is how we got HERE
Yeah that sounds about right. Nothing in the quoted tweet is quite as bad as advocating for the elimination of all homeless people (or even just the homeless junkies) by stomping them out, as per the topic of this thread.
The tweet is suggestive, but not racist, demeaning, or calling for murder.

Which parts of the tweet do you believe do not belong on DVDTalk?

fake edit: and just because I think it's worthwhile, there IS an issue with violent rhetoric on "the left." I feel like this video covers the topic better than any other I've seen, without providing a specific point of view as "correct."
Spoiler:
The creator says:
This is a fictional dialogue between characters created for philosophical and artistic purposes. I do not necessarily endorse the viewpoints of any of the characters involved.
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Old 06-05-18, 08:14 AM   #10
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan View Post
Which parts of the tweet do you believe do not belong on DVDTalk?
Let's be honest, those "punch a fascist" memes aren't about Nazis and the Klan. They're talking about Trump supporters. Every right winger on this board has been called a racist/nazi/supremacist by other members.

So when DVD Talk members are being called fascist, racist, white supremacist, etc. I don't think it's appropriate to post memes advocating that they should be violently attacked.
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Old 06-05-18, 08:33 AM   #11
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBigDave View Post
Let's be honest, those "punch a fascist" memes aren't about Nazis and the Klan. They're talking about Trump supporters. Every right winger on this board has been called a racist/nazi/supremacist by other members.

So when DVD Talk members are being called fascist, racist, white supremacist, etc. I don't think it's appropriate to post memes advocating that they should be violently attacked.
Settle down, snowflake. Nobody has advocated punching Trump supporters. People have cheered Richard Spencer getting punched, but he literally calls for ethnic cleansing in the U.S. I’m not going to get into a political debate on the Feedback forum —stick up for white supremacy on the Politics forum if you want —but there’s a world of difference between debating how whether violence is an appropriate response to people who advocate toxic ideas and whether violence is an appropriate response to homelessness.
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Old 06-05-18, 11:13 AM   #12
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

To be fair, the president said he could shoot someone and not lose votes, he suggested his supporters murder his political opponent, and his lawyer said he could've shot his employee rather than firing him. All this murder talk just sounds presidential to me.
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Old 06-05-18, 11:26 AM   #13
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

I agree with JasonF above, so I won't re-state most of what he said, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBigDave View Post
Let's be honest, those "punch a fascist" memes aren't about Nazis and the Klan. They're talking about Trump supporters. Every right winger on this board has been called a racist/nazi/supremacist by other members.

So when DVD Talk members are being called fascist, racist, white supremacist, etc. I don't think it's appropriate to post memes advocating that they should be violently attacked.
TheBigDave, I think you generally have good intentions (for what it's worth, even if that's nothing to you), but that is a fascinating leap of reasoning. Just to summarize:
You read "Punch a nazi" (which is what it literally says) as
"punch a fascist" as
"punch Trump supporters" as
"punch right wing DVDTalk members"
because some DVDTalk members have been accused of being fascist, racist, white supremacist by some other DVDTalk members. Therefore you feel it's inappropriate for "Punch a nazi" to appear on this forum, not because it advocates violence, but because it advocates violence against DVDTalk members, even though they're... not nazis. My intent isn't to strawman you, but to figure out what it is you're really arguing against. So if I've misunderstood or misrepresented your position above, DO correct me.

To me it seems like your issue isn't with the "Punch a nazi" meme itself, but the perceived intentions of those who say it and/or share it. I get that... we're all guilty of jumping to conclusions in one way or another about others' intent, but in the effort of doing better and sticking to the example you provided (instead of devolving into countless whatabout-isms), nobody is calling for other members of the forum to be attacked; directly or suggestively. If you can make a strong link to such a claim, then use that, but I don't see it based on what you've said above.

Quote:
Settle down, snowflake.
While I'm at a point where I don't particularly find this kind of comment helpful, I do wonder...
Dave, what was your personal reaction to the above?
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Old 06-05-18, 11:50 AM   #14
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

It's also quite a stretch to state that "every right winger on this board has been called a racist/nazi/supremacist by other members". And even if that was true, where were the mods given a broad sweeping generalization like that would be against the rules?

But of course, just like some would try and say the POTUS is not a racist, the specific posters that has been called out continue to try and paint themselves as the victims. Because how dare people treat racists/Nazis/white supremacists as anything other than the good people they are?
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Old 06-05-18, 12:02 PM   #15
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
My initial thought is that the OP's point (to crush homeless like a bug) was so stupid that the forum would easily show how ridiculous it was by bringing up the fact that mental health facilities had been closed in order to save money and give people tax breaks. That many of the homeless need access to mental health counseling and medication, but do not have the access they need. There was an opportunity to show the real cause of the mentally ill running in the homeless community.
On other forums I visit, when a post contains general ideas that are discussion-worthy, but also contains specific statements that violate the forum policy, the mods will leave the post/thread but will edit out the violating statement from it and include a note on why it was removed (and presumably, warn the member who wrote it).

It seems like that might be an approach to consider in the future for cases like this. I do think you're right that this was an opportunity for meaningful discussion, but I also think others are right that the forum should not tolerate statements explicitly promoting violence against individuals or groups of people. Removing the violent statement but leaving the rest of the post could have satisfied both of those things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
Settle down, snowflake.
The dialog on this forum will be a lot better when everyone stops using the term "snowflake" like this. No, it doesn't compare to advocating violence against anyone, but it's still a demeaning and dismissive thing to say that does nothing but put people on the defensive and shut down potentially useful discussion.
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Old 06-05-18, 12:21 PM   #16
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

Dave, I apologize for calling you Snowflake and using the phrase “settle down.” That was wrong of me and you didn’t deserve it.
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Old 06-05-18, 12:26 PM   #17
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
Dave, I apologize for calling you Snowflake and using the phrase “settle down.” That was wrong of me and you didn’t deserve it.
No problem. Thanks for the apology.
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Old 06-05-18, 12:39 PM   #18
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kefrank View Post
The dialog on this forum will be a lot better when everyone stops using the term "snowflake" like this. No, it doesn't compare to advocating violence against anyone, but it's still a demeaning and dismissive thing to say that does nothing but put people on the defensive and shut down potentially useful discussion.
I understand the point, but I believe this kind of use of "snowflake" is ironic because the phrase was originated by conservatives to target liberals.

I don't think any liberals have coopted the term "SJW" yet. I find that one even more inflammatory.
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Old 06-05-18, 12:48 PM   #19
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidh777 View Post
I understand the point, but I believe this kind of use of "snowflake" is ironic because the phrase was originated by conservatives to target liberals.
Irony or not, my point stands. It's an ugly term no matter the usage and saying it with mocking irony only perpetuates the ugliness.

Big kudos to JasonF for apologizing. The forum could definitely use more of that and less vitriol.

Quote:
I don't think any liberals have co-opted the term "SJW" yet. I find that one even more inflammatory.
I agree that term is similarly dismissive and unhelpful.
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Old 06-05-18, 12:58 PM   #20
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

I agree that name-calling is inflammatory.
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Old 06-05-18, 01:05 PM   #21
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan View Post
TheBigDave, I think you generally have good intentions (for what it's worth, even if that's nothing to you), but that is a fascinating leap of reasoning. Just to summarize:
You read "Punch a nazi" (which is what it literally says) as
"punch a fascist" as
"punch Trump supporters" as
"punch right wing DVDTalk members"
because some DVDTalk members have been accused of being fascist, racist, white supremacist by some other DVDTalk members. Therefore you feel it's inappropriate for "Punch a nazi" to appear on this forum, not because it advocates violence, but because it advocates violence against DVDTalk members, even though they're... not nazis. My intent isn't to strawman you, but to figure out what it is you're really arguing against. So if I've misunderstood or misrepresented your position above, DO correct me.
Here's the problem I have with it. It's not about that particular post. There's a lot of variations on that meme that get posted here from time to time. Sometimes it's a nazi, other times it's a klan member, whatever. I was just talking about the pro-violence antifa memes in general.

There's a lot of people out there that think by supporting Trump, you're a racist/fascist/supremacist. I don't wear a MAGA hat out in public, because I'm concerned about how people will react. I don't want someone throwing a drink on me in a restaurant. Or coming up behind me and punching me in the face. I should be able to show support for my candidate without worrying about some stranger reacting violently.

But I guess that's the point of those antifa memes.
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Old 06-05-18, 01:40 PM   #22
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

Conversely (and rightfully so IMO) a lot of minorities see some MAGA hats when out in public and legitimately get very nervous. See below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidh777 View Post
To be fair, the president said he could shoot someone and not lose votes, he suggested his supporters murder his political opponent, and his lawyer said he could've shot his employee rather than firing him. All this murder talk just sounds presidential to me.
I think it would go a long away towards lessening the tension if there was far less whatboutism when specific issues with Trump are pointed out Especially the blatant examples of racism and threats of violence towards anybody that opposes those in MAGA hats.
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Old 06-05-18, 05:04 PM   #23
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBigDave View Post
Here's the problem I have with it. It's not about that particular post. There's a lot of variations on that meme that get posted here from time to time. Sometimes it's a nazi, other times it's a klan member, whatever. I was just talking about the pro-violence antifa memes in general.
Thank you for clarifying this. I guess you would have to point to specific examples, but I do get what you mean in general.

Quote:
There's a lot of people out there that think by supporting Trump, you're a racist/fascist/supremacist.
I mean, I get it. But can you at least appreciate where they're coming from and why they may feel that way, other than assuming they're being oversensitive or hysterical (not to say that's what you think of them, but that's the impression I'm getting), even if they might be wrong? I'm not saying you have to prove anything to anyone, but just understand that those conclusions are coming from, among other things, legitimate fear. The man has said straight-up racist things. The man played the middle when it came to Charlottesville ("good people on both sides...")*. The man called for a Muslim ban, then changed his wording to sound more "PC" then... called it a Muslim ban again. The man has said his fair share of fascy things. The man has said journalists that have criticized him should be fired. The man's fanbase has a disproportionate number of people who say racist, fascist, and supremacist things (both in real life, getting in the faces of people on the street, and on the main hangouts for fans on reddit and elsewhere...).
If you haven't said/done any of those things (and I DO believe that you haven't), then that's fantastic. But at the very least, I would hope that you can understand that that's what people are encountering. Hate crimes are up, right?
If you don't associate with any of that kind of shit, then that's great (and commendable!), but the sentiment coming from the other side isn't completely unwarranted, either. I think modern "centrism" is kind of bullshit in some ways, but in regard to reasonable concerns about what others are saying, there's some middle-ground. But when people generalize about what "Trump supporters" are like, it's because those are the types they end up interacting with, just as when other people generalize about what "libtards" are like, it's because... those are the types they end up interacting with.

Quote:
I don't wear a MAGA hat out in public, because I'm concerned about how people will react. I don't want someone throwing a drink on me in a restaurant. Or coming up behind me and punching me in the face. I should be able to show support for my candidate without worrying about some stranger reacting violently.
I totally understand. I just hope you understand that that same concern, that same worry that you feel... that's nothing new for a lot of people in the country, but for very different reasons.

Quote:
But I guess that's the point of those antifa memes.
I disagree. I think the point of those antifa memes are:
1. Sure, to crack jokes, and
2. To be a bit aggressive, but
I feel like one core purpose is to figuratively jar people into seeing things from another perspective. The worry/concern you feel about wearing a MAGA hat? That's what a lot of others have been going through for a long time. Except, it's not hats, it's their skin. Or who they're holding hands with. Or the name they prefer to be called. Or the color they want to dye their hair. People get picked on (putting it lightly) for all sorts of crap that they, generally, can't change about themselves. So if you're concerned about wearing a MAGA hat, I get it, but I implore you to try to consider what that symbol means to the country at large, and to the people who have a legitimate reason to be wary of anyone wearing one.

*because I like to try to be informative about some things, I highly recommend watching this hour-long YouTube video about the events of Charlottesville, based on footage from some of the main folks involved. There may have been a lot of guys who were in over their heads, not really understanding what they were rallying for, but that doesn't excuse their association with these types.
Spoiler:


Cheers man.
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Old 06-10-18, 01:58 PM   #24
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kefrank View Post
.Big kudos to JasonF for apologizing. The forum could definitely use more of that and less vitriol.
Well, it's a start.

Considering the fact that the member in question seems to enjoy calling other forum members terms such as "coward" and "liar" and telling them to go fuck themselves (and brags about that!), "snowflake" seems pretty mild. Especially since the member in question repeatedly posts falsehoods about other members and then complains about those members by running to the feedback forum wanting his favorite targets to be banned.

Add to that the fact that the same member insults the entire forum and the moderators with every single post made regardless of the thread or forum (and that same sentiment has been co-opted by a like-minded forum member who similarly complains regularly about other members...to the amusement of the targets, who share laughs in less-public settings). It seems to be the sort of thing favored by most members here (we're a very tolerant group ), even if it would seem out-of-place elsewhere. At least, haven't seen any public complaints about their practice of publicly attacking mods with every post.

It all makes for an inviting, congenial, collegial atmosphere in which opposing viewpoints can be expressed and considered civilly.

It's all a Big Rock Candy Mountain. I suppose it's educational in a fascinating sort of way when one doesn't ordinarily encounter that sort of behavior in everyday life, and it has taken on a funny life of its own. It's almost like a game in which one tries to predict what bizarre event can top the previous ones. It's right up there with the people most frequently complaining about "trolls" who then repeatedly engage in trolling behavior (and, in at least one instance, brags about "trolling" others). You just can't write this stuff (at least, late night comedy staffs can't match it).

But, yeah, that apology was a grand gesture and concession! :
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Old 06-10-18, 03:27 PM   #25
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Posts: 29,918
Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?

^ Are you trying to help here, or are you trolling again? Because I think we had a conversation about your trolling.
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