Because a lot of people do it, do we consider French bashing acceptable?

I ask, because we have had a LOT of this happening lately, but I see very little done about it.

Does DVDTalk consider it acceptable to bash a group of people like this?

Here's one example where I've taken a proactive stance against the bashing, but there are MANY other examples:

http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthr...hreadid=274146

Another example:

http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthr...hreadid=274173

At least here, there is active debate with some people trying to unbash the French.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. French bashing has gone too far in Other.

Someone even cracked a French joke in that thread about those two girls run over. Apparently a winky smiley makes everything all right though.

I've reported it before as well and yet it continues. Shrug - bigots will be bigots i guess and lately it is fashionable and acceptable to express it.

So some people have bad taste when it comes to joking around, but the implication (or outright statement) that it's bigotry is not only absurd, it's insulting. Bigots are intolerable of others who are different. French bashers simply don't like the French. Bigotry implies a close-minded nature and an unwillingless to accept or even consider the beliefs of those outside their circle of bigotry. People don't joke about the French because of their skin color, or their gender, or sexual orientation. It's a built-up response to decades upon decades of anti-American sentiment from the French, and need I remind you of Jerry Lewis? There's a difference between hating people who are born different and criticizing people because of their <I>actions</I>.

The French and Americans have been slinging one-liners at each other since before most of us were born, and it's never been hate-filled. Don't tell anyone this, but I don't really hate the French. Yeah, I get tired of their accusations of arrogance towards Americans when there has never been a more undeservedly arrogant nation in the history of mankind; and, of course, I've grown tired of their blind disagreement with whatever foreign policy America takes in addition to butting into our domestic policy whenever they're bored. This has been going on for generations with no genuine malice, but the fact that recent political events have brought a rise to the jokes in both directions doesn't mean we have to hop on our high horses and proclaim that it's somehow <I>now</I> offensive.

Saying something rude and insensitive is just that; it has nothing to do with French bashing. People bash the Lakers all day long, but when someone uses Laker bashing to mock the death of Chick Hearn, Laker bashing isn't the problem; it's the insensitivity of the particular person who crossed the line.

French bashing is as American as it gets; and the reverse holds equally true. I will continue to jokingly rag on the French, and of course those damn French Canadians, and I expect the same in return. It's not bigotry; it's not a hate-crime; it's not fueled by anything more than light-hearted rivalry; and it should be as harmless as "British people have bad teeth," "Irish drink too much," "Scottish are head-butting hooligans," and "Americans are fat and lazy." So what. Nations rag on each other. Sports fans rag on each other. If you don't want to participate, then fine, but trivializing genuine hate problems in our own country in an attempt to push your own beliefs on everyone else really should have no place.

das

First of all, it's the quantity.

If you start putting "Irish drink too much" in every third thread, then it moves from being a "joke" to being a problem.

Second of all, when a lot of people start doing it, it becomes a mob mentality vs. good natured joking. People have been lynched that way - it starts out as good ol' boy joking, then moves on to something more sinister.

I'm claiming that we have moved beyond good natured french jokes here and into something a little more problematic.

I agree Seeker,

Everyday the DVDTalk other forum is becoming more and more like the childish nonsense on IGN's boards...

Actually, it turns into a mob mentality when others jump into the good natured joking and start accusing the participants of horrible things. The joking against the French is nothing in comparison to some of the truly mean accusations being made against those who are just joking around. Go into a room of people who are harmlessly joking around and start accusing them of being akin to those who hanged Blacks for the color of their skin or hunted down a man and beat him senseless because of his sexual preference, and those people are going to take offense. In fact, while some Otters have shown poor judgment, I've been a bit impressed that most Otters have ignored this high and mighty preaching, taken it in stride, and continued to have fun. The more you get in their face and accuse them of being hate-filled people when they mean no harm, the more negative the comments will turn. I agree that some of it has gotten out of control, but it's more a function of Otters telling other Otters that they don't have a right to joke around and are even horrible humans for doing so than the joking itself. And each time someone tells me I'm a horrible person for joking about how prone the French are to surrender to a 4-year-old girl with a gun-shaped lollipop, the more desireable it becomes to do it again.

My philosophy of life (noted in my .sig) was stated by a French-man, and I respect the hell out of his words. But he's still a stinky French-man; and I'm an arrogant American. Whoop-de-doo. The French are human beings with thoughts and ideas and contributions to society (which is more than can be said for Laker fans), and perhaps the greatest insult to them is to imply that they cannot handle a little ribbing. People aren't vandalizing French businesses or dragging French-Canadians out in the street and beating them or harrassing their families.

Anyway, if there is a problem, it's not the jokes ... it's the crusade against them and the near personal attacks made against those who have been joking around. The waters were light-hearted and fun, and then people started pissing in the pool. This shouldn't be so big an issue, and I think we all know that there would be a lot less French bashing if people weren't bitching about it so much.

das

P.S. <B>diacritic</B>, Otter is immature ... always has been ... always will be. It's not a function of French bashing.

das Monkey - it is a bit disingenuous of you to use that argument.

Calling those who criticize others of going overboard as being the "villains".

At the risk of making your argument true, do you realize you've fallen into the same argument style that Saddam Hussein uses to show how evil America is?


No one made a comment about a few French jokes. In fact, no one made an argument about a LOT of French jokes. I've never made ANY comment on this until tonight.

And when I finally made a comment, it was *I* who started getting lambasted with "how dare yous" and "you're terribles".

I find that a bit odd and a bit sad.

Bottom line though: jokes are fine. But when they get to a certain point, they indeed move beyond jokes and into something that has the patina of a sinister nature.

I'm not talking about this thread or you. I'm talking about what's been going on in Otter for the past few weeks. Your complaint about French bashing is nothing new, and while you've raised your point politely, there are many others threadcrapping in threads that are clearly intended to joke about the French and making very cruel and harsh accusations against the posters.

And there is a difference between French bashing and bashing posters who French bash. It's one thing for me to call the Dallas Cowboys a bunch of criminals. It's another thing for a DVD Talk poster to attack me, another DVD Talk poster, for saying that. While nothing you've said even borders on an attack of DVD Talk posters, you're not the only one complaining, and others haven't been so respectful in their complaints, and it's my belief that those comments are more to blame for the potential escalation of this situation than the original joking that's been going on since before I can remember.

das

Well, you may be right.

I've commented on this in only four threads (this being one of them) and two of those four have been locked.

And I think they've been locked not because of the French jokes, but because I had the audacity to criticize people for making them.

So, in that sense, the official attitude may be "it's ok to make jokes, even in quantity, but don't start arguments" - we'll close those threads.

I don't KNOW if that's the policy - that's why I started this thread to ask, politely I hope.

Personally, though, I did wait till tonight to discuss this - because I was hoping it would ebb and flow like most things do here.

But, the French bashing has reached the same epic proportions as "thread hijacking" did a while back...

Having not read all your particular threads thoroughly, I could be off base, but I would guess they were closed because the topic has been beaten to death both in Feedback and Otter, and the threads were moving off course. Also, while I do think you have a point and don't intend to be offensive, hijacking a thread to grandstand over your own beliefs has never been an appropriate way to handle something at DVD Talk. Reporting posts or posting in Feedback (as you've done now) is the action to take. Getting into a "pissing contest" (as was mentioned in the reason for one close) is almost certainly a threadcrap and borderline trolling, particularly as the subject has been beaten to death and then beaten some more.

das

P.S. On a more social analysis level, if you let it be, this will pass as surely as parachute pants, starting every sentence with the word dude, and beanie babies.

Ah, but "reporting posts" in those two threads almost became the "are you going to tattle on me" pissing contest.

Almost a challenge - like "I'm doing this and I'm proud of it."

And still, I truly believe this has gone too far. It is NOT ok to beat up on a group incessantly.

Key word: incessantly. It becomes something else than joking.

Reporting a post and shaking your fist at people yelling, "I'm telling your mommy" are two different things. When you tell everyone that you're going to report them, you're just taunting them, and it's hard to blame them for responding in kind.

As for the French, while they can't defend themselves from military assaults, I feel confident they can defend themselves from message board mockery, incessant or not.

das

Seeker, buddy, I was sincere in my response that you report the post, and wasn't chiding you for "telling Mom". I seriously didn't want to let the discussion be derailed by a one on one difference of opinion, and was more than happy to let the mods decide. As Das said, it's just the thing to do. Again, I wasn't chiding you, I was saying let's see what the mods have to say about it.

As for "Almost a challenge - like "I'm doing this and I'm proud of it."", I honestly wasn't challenging you, seriously. I just meant instead of confronting me in an open forum, either contact me personally or take it up with the mods. I'm sorry it didn't quite come across that way.

Ah, yes. Something that could have been avoided by simply reporting the post without proclaiming that you had done so. It is a proven fact that 98.7% of threads where someone states that they have reported a post turn to ****.

Someone else reported a post that they thought ridiculed someone for using the report a post feature that we always encourage people to use. While we do encourage people to report posts, that is so we become aware of what someone perceives as a problem. Stating in the thread that you have reported a post often(98.7% of the time) creates a problem where we might not have agreed that there was one.

I reported an initial post without making such a statement.

After about 40 minutes (yes I know that isn't long) combined with X, a moderator, telling me I was taking things too seriously, along with continued joking along with my (non-moderator mentioning) post being ridiculed, yes, I decided to say I was reporting a post.

I think I was justified. You may not. And yes, it turned into a ****ing contest after that.

All that said, let's address the issue at hand. Is French bashing at the level that it is occuring acceptable at DVDTalk? Is criticizing such bashing not acceptable?

Thanks for your response.

And as you know, I did exactly that - contacted you via email.

X is an Admin, not a moderator. When you use the "Report this post to a moderator" link it says that the message is being sent to the moderators of that forum, or Admins if there are no moderators. So X does not receive reports from Other.

I saw the reports, I looked at the posts that were reported. Since we haven't had a mod conference about "French bashing" and nothing came out from the previous threads in Feedback, I chose not to take any action. I see it as the latest Oolong, All Your Base, that kind of thing.

As far as your question about whether "French bashing" being acceptable at it's current level goes, the only person who can truly answer that is Geoff.

Just for clarification - so until a policy is set, it IS ok to bash a group via jokes or posts?

And where do we find out which groups are ok and which are not ok? Where is the policy written, available, whatever?

Do you really want clarification, or are you just trying to stir things up some more?

As has been mentioned, there is a difference between posting jokes about a group... even posting a lot of jokes about a group... and bashing them. Yes, it is okay to post jokes about people or groups of people. You may not like the joke or think the joke is funny, but that's how it goes with jokes. What is not okay is attacking. There's a difference between me joking about heimerSWT and his education at SWT vs. me seriously calling him an ignorant retard (sorry, heimer... the first example that popped into mind).

People are joking about the French. A lot. Does it get tiring when a joke gets rehashed over and over again? Yes, for some people. But that's all it is... like Andy said, it's just a current fad. (Actually, joking about the French has always been going on, but I guess the fad is that it's picked up recently.)

Also, there is no official policy about "jokes vs. arguments" like you asked about... we usually close threads that go drastically off-topic or devolve into pissing contests.

So if we can go make jokes about the french, can we make jokes about homosexuals? Blacks?

Seems like a double standard to me. To me bashing a nationality, even in a joking manner, is just as ignorant and offensive as making homophobic or racist jokes.

Sorry, I just have to throw my 2 cents in...

Seeker, I like a lot of your posts but I just don't get it... if you don't like the joking, why not just go to another thread? Do you actually think you're going to convince someone of your position? I mean, could a french-basher convince you to switch your views? It would be equally difficult for the reverse...

It seems when you send messages like "I'm reporting this post!", it only raises the tension/desire of some to get the blood boiling even more...

Personally, I love a good French-bashing joke... I am Hispanic, and I love a good Hispanic-bashing joke. Does that mean I'm racist? Absolutely not. There's a big difference between a "new French gun, passed the drop-test" joke and burning a cross/beating down a minority/firing a jew/etc etc...When we lose the ability to laugh at ourselves, we turn into old fuddy duddies.

- 29 year old Hispanic who is going back to look for good French-bashing pictures......