Forum Feedback and Support Post forum feedback and related problems, here.

Smoking/Cigarette Thread

Old 10-30-02, 10:00 PM
  #1  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 925
Smoking/Cigarette Thread

As a pediatrician, I am concerned about the thread in the "Hot Deals" forum regarding a free carton of cigarettes. While I am decidedly anti-smoking, I understand that people in the US have the right to poisen themselves with tobacco if they choose; however, children should not be exposed to pro-smoking propaganda. I therefore believe that any smoking threads should be in a place where minors are not permitted i.e. the "Mature Forum"

I am also saddened by the response of the moderator in this thread. I do not see telling people the dangers of smoking as threadcrapping but as a public service. While it is true that people can read the title of the thread and decide whether or not they want to enter, members of this site should be able to state the dangers of smoking to our fellow members (which include a significant number of minors) without fear of reprisal. Smoking kills millions of people each year and I cannot standby as a physician or as human while children have access to their first cigarettes through this offer. Please either delete this thread or move it to the "Mature Forum"

this is the thread in question:
removed link

EDIT: I went back and looked at the original thread and this ad came from Playboy. The offer is intended for mature audiences and therefore belongs in a mature forum.

Last edited by towbinaj; 11-16-02 at 12:39 AM.
towbinaj is offline  
Old 10-31-02, 03:12 AM
  #2  
DVD Talk Hero
 
jfoobar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 37,812
Children are exposed to thousands of cigarette advertisements a year without ever having to visit DVDTalk.

While your concerns are no doubt well-intended, I just don't see how the issue jusitifies censorship of a thread that is entirely on topic in Hot Deals. The issue of smoking, not to mention consumption of alcohol, comes up quite often on Other, and there is no age requirement in that forum either.
jfoobar is offline  
Old 10-31-02, 04:28 AM
  #3  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 925
A discussion of smoking is protected free speech. In a discussion the evils of smoking are allowed to be voiced. In a discussion on smoking, links to free cigarettes are not given. This deal was originally publshed in Playboy for a reason, it was intended for mature audiences. I would have the same arguement if there was a link for free alcohol.

This website has already stated that it will not stand for practices that encourage breaking the law. For example, it is legal on DVDTalk to have a discussion on bootlegs but it is not legal to post a link to a site that sells them. The (correct) reasoning behind this stance is that by doing so DVDTalk is an accessory to bootlegging. In this same vein, I think you will find that posting access to free cigarettes makes DVDTalk an accessory to allowing minors to smoke.

Even if it isn't illegal it is morally irrehensible to allow minors the access to a known addictive, deadly product.

JustinS, you state that "I just don't see how the issue jusitifies censorship of a thread that is entirely on topic in Hot Deals." However, the thread is censored; DVDTalkers are not allowed to post on how this is a non bargain. That by receiving a free carton of cigarettes you will become addicted to a product that can and will kill you.

I dont know if you have watched people die because of smoking, but I have. I know that my concerns are not only "well intended" but vital.
towbinaj is offline  
Old 10-31-02, 04:36 AM
  #4  
Uber Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Overlooking Pearl Harbor
Posts: 16,232
FYI, a very similar ad showed up in PC Magazine, so it's not necessarily aimed only at a "mature" audience.

Like JustinS, I too can see that your post is well intentioned. However, the offer clearly states that it is only for those 21 and above, and cigarettes are a legal substance at that age.

Warnings about the dangers of smoking are threadcraps because the thread in question is about a deal, not smoking. Posting that type of information is going to take the thread off topic and possibly lead to fights. As long as it's a valid thread for the forum, that type of activity is not welcome.

Ultimately, it's highly unlikely that that thread is going to end up providing an under-aged person's first cigarette. But it is very likely that many of our members will be able to benefit from the deal. Short of a significant policy change, I would have to say that namja has handled the thread correctly.

We do appreciate you taking the time to make your concerns known, however, and while our ultimate decision is to disagree with your recommendation, I hope you at least feel that we have listened to and considered your position.
Blade is offline  
Old 10-31-02, 04:16 PM
  #5  
DVD Talk Legend
 
LurkerDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The People's Republic of Boulder
Posts: 21,998
Damn, Blade, that's good. Very well handled.
LurkerDan is offline  
Old 10-31-02, 04:31 PM
  #6  
DVD Talk Hero
 
das Monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 35,881
While I think there's merit to the concept that buying cigarettes at ANY price isn't a bargain, since you can't place a price on your life, the same could also be said for DVDs. If someone posts a bargain for <B>E.T.</B> on DVD, I could argue that it's hardly a bargain, since the product is defective, and you're selling your soul to the evil $pielberg empire. But that's just my opinion.

See, here's the deal, as I see it.

Fact: Smoking is unhealthy
Opinion: My health is more important than exercising my right to smoke

Fact: <B>E.T.</B> has been changed
Opinion: I do not wish to sell my soul to Satan, I mean, $pielberg

I think it's valid if someone posts a deal for how to purchase <B>E.T.</B> to clarify that the DVD is different from the original film. Discussion of which is better is a topic for Movie Talk/DVD Talk, but a single post in clarification of the product you're purchasing doesn't strike me as a bad thing. Stretching the analogy, I don't think it's invalid if someone posts a deal for how to purchase cigarettes to clarify that cigarettes are harmful to your health and could kill you. Of course, a discussion of whether this is important is a topic for Other, but one post of clarification again doesn't strike me as a bad thing.

Cigarettes are a health risk. This is not an opinion. It's printed as clearly on the package as the "This Movie is in Widescreen" label is printed on the back of a DVD. If someone pops into a bargain thread for a DVD and says, "just a reminder ... this DVD is widescreen" or "just a reminder ... this DVD is P&S and doesn't include the original subtitles" - it doesn't bother me, and as long as it's a FACT and not an OPINION, I do find it relevant. Discussion of how that fact applies to us as individuals is a topic for another forum.

I'm rambling ... I know. In short, I don't think it's fair to move the thread or censor it to "protect" anyone. But at the same time, I don't think it's outside the rules to post a factual message that informs people of the Surgeon General's warnings that will be clearly printed on the package when it arrives in the mail. As this deal appears to be completely free of cost, it doesn't really matter, but if it were "Cigarettes for a Penny" then information of the product in question could save someone a penny who didn't realize cigarettes were unhealthy, just as information could save someone from buying a copy of <B>E.T.</B> they didn't really want.

das
das Monkey is offline  
Old 10-31-02, 06:02 PM
  #7  
Mod Emeritus
 
benedict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Outside of the U.S.A.
Posts: 10,674
[I don't smoke; never have]

<small>
Originally posted by das Monkey
I don't think it's outside the rules to post a factual message that informs people of the Surgeon General's warnings that will be clearly printed on the package when it arrives in the mail.
</small>I think the "argument" is stretched to breaking point. You are positing people buying products of which they have insufficient knowledge because otherwise they'd have read the health warning signs already.

Cigarettes are legal. Underage purchases/procurements are illegal.

I don't think it is valid for someone to jump into a thread to point out the obvious merely for the theoretical benefit of the one in a million ingenue who doesn't understand the correlation between smoking and ill-health.

With regard to the protected free speech argument, clearly any proponent does not appreciate that this is a private forum as stated in the rules. Maybe Geoff will formulate a new rule banning posts concerning free tobacco; maybe not.
benedict is offline  
Old 10-31-02, 06:43 PM
  #8  
Uber Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Overlooking Pearl Harbor
Posts: 16,232
das,

Perhaps a more accurate analogy would be if someone were posting a deal on how to get a DIVX DVD (when they still existed) and someone kept coming into the thread and "reminding" everyone what DIVX was all about.

Clearly, in both cases, the person posting is posting facts. But they are well known facts, and the true (or at least, reasonably assumed) intent is discouragement, not education. As much as I may sympathize with either side, this type of post is too likely, as I stated above, to lead to off topic discussions and (possibly) to fighting. Hence the edits and the warnings not to continue.

And thanks, LurkerDan.
Blade is offline  
Old 10-31-02, 07:26 PM
  #9  
DVD Talk Hero
 
das Monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 35,881
I would argue that many people still don't know what DIVX was about or OAR, and consequently I have to assume there are some people who don't know that cigarettes are hazardous to your health. It's absurd, I know, but I've lived long enough to accept that I'll never be amazed at the lack of information many people possess.

I do agree completely that if someone "kept coming in" that's crap-crap-crap and has no place here. But in all seriousness, if I were reading a thread about a DVD I was about to purchase and there was something about it unknown to me, I'd want to know. "Beware ... this one's a flipper." I may not care, but I'd want to know.

Cigarettes are tough because it's commonly assumed that everyone knows how dangerous they are, and smokers take it very personally when someone points it out, even if it's not in a judgmental or accusatory manner. Personally, I don't care if people smoke or not, just so long as it's not blown in my face, but I argue the point because it spans to other less familiar products or services.

What if the 24-hour Hollywood Diet did a sale? I'd want to know that people have become seriously ill from doing it and to be careful. What if a Mitsubishi WS RPTV was on sale. I'd want to know that it has significant red push that needs to be attenuated.

The only difference I see is the assumption everyone already knows smoking is harmful. I disagree with that assumption.

In any case, I'm arguing the point because I'm bored. I completely understand and appreciate the real reason why this (and many other things) are the way they are around here. We're not all mature enough to handle certain situations, and certain discussions (bootlegs for one) are proved to get ugly and out of hand. Regardless of whether some things are "fair" to <I>everyone</I>, certain topics have to be kept in check to maintain sanity on the forum.

This isn't a free nation with taxpayers and lawmakers and hired law enforcement. It's a small group of <I>volunteers</I> trying to keep peace among thousands of unique people from all over the world, many of whom argue senseless topics just for sport (looks in mirror). Lines have to be drawn somewhere. I'm certainly not in favor of all of the rules around here, but without them there'd be no DVDTalk, and as Spock would tell you, sometimes the good of the many outweight the good of the few ... or the one.

das
das Monkey is offline  
Old 10-31-02, 07:51 PM
  #10  
Uber Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Overlooking Pearl Harbor
Posts: 16,232
Originally posted by das Monkey
The only difference I see is the assumption everyone already knows smoking is harmful. I disagree with that assumption.
While a good argument for refutting a similar policy in a DIVX related deal, it is a much less effective argument in the case of cigarettes.

As you touched on in your justification for wasting my time , we have a variety of topics that have developed a need for special treatment. If you look at the thread in question, you'll see that it required quite a lot of editing work for namja. Moreover, when I went over to fatwallet to see if they had more details on the deal, the thread discussing it had a reference to the thread likely being bogged down by anti-smoking posts.

Given how likely it is for this type of post to create trouble, and how unlikely that anyone reading it won't know that cigarettes are bad for you, I, again, believe that namja took the correct actions.

Go bug someone in the TV forum now.
Blade is offline  
Old 10-31-02, 08:07 PM
  #11  
DVD Talk Hero
 
das Monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 35,881
<BLOCKQUOTE> Quoth Blade <HR SIZE=1>Given how likely it is for this type of post to create trouble, and how unlikely that anyone reading it won't know that cigarettes are bad for you, I, again, believe that namja took the correct actions.<HR SIZE=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

You'll get no argument from me. Wait a minute ... um ... ok ... that's not <I>entirely</I> correct. You'll get argument from me, just not on that stance. Like I said, I completely understand (and agree with) why <B>namja</B> handled it this way and why we'll likely proceed that way in the future.

<BLOCKQUOTE> Quoth Blade <HR SIZE=1>Go bug someone in the TV forum now. <HR SIZE=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right on cue. It's 8:00 pm and that means Prime Time. I need to get all my senseless arguing out of my system before my TiVo goes into overdrive.

/me scurries away to his home away from home ... TV Talk

das
das Monkey is offline  
Old 11-04-02, 10:47 AM
  #12  
DVD Talk Legend
 
LurkerDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The People's Republic of Boulder
Posts: 21,998
As an interesting side note to this discussion, I emailed that thread to a bunch of smoker friends (I don't smoke, but if they are going to, why not help them get free cigs?). The email just had the link, with an email subject title of "To my smoker friends". One friend, the only one who responded to my email, responded in a manner that indicated he never clicked on the link: he just assumed that I was sending him some anti-smoking propaganda. I had to berate him to click on the link before he accused me of that. I don't know how many of the other recipients never bothered to look at the link, making the same assumption.

Just thought that was funny, and somehow marginally relevant.
LurkerDan is offline  
Old 11-04-02, 02:08 PM
  #13  
DVD Talk Hero
 
El Scorcho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 39,628
What are the odds that you're going to inform anybody about the dangers of smoking that they haven't heard a million times before? Slim, I would assume.
El Scorcho is offline  
Old 11-05-02, 01:24 PM
  #14  
DVD Talk Legend
 
gcribbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Sacramento,Ca,USA member #2634
Posts: 11,965
I think it is a hot deal literally

If I smoked i would jump on it.

Heck it is free so maybe should jump on the deal anyway and start smoking- a deal is a deal

I do think that free or very reduced priced cigs or alcohol threads should be allowed.
gcribbs is offline  
Old 11-05-02, 03:41 PM
  #15  
Retired
 
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 27,449
I agree the mods took the appropirate action.

A bargain thread should only have replies discussing the bargain, regardless of what the product is.

Posting about the dangers of cigarettes (I hate them as well) was simply a classic example of a

As for ET, if there was an ET thread in DVD Bargains, discussing that it's been butchered in it would also be a A thread in DVD Talk or Movie Talk would be the appropriate place to post that discussion.
Josh H is offline  
Old 11-06-02, 10:27 AM
  #16  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: In a place without the cursed couch
Posts: 20,590
Thanks a bunch towbinaj I'm ordering my free carton! Didnt even realize there was such a deal!
Thunderball is offline  
Old 11-06-02, 11:17 AM
  #17  
DVD Talk Hero
 
das Monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 35,881
<BLOCKQUOTE> Quoth Josh Hinkle <HR SIZE=1>...<HR SIZE=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Note that I said a "discussion" would be crapping. A single post (perhaps a link to a DVD Talk discussion), however, I think it appropriate.

We do this all the time. Someone posts a bargain for a DVD and then we get:

"Note: this isn't the SE version"

or

"FYI - this is the Fox Lorber version - you can get a better transfer on the Blah-Blah version ... here's a link to the DVD Talk discussion"

Product clarification is, in my mind, perfectly acceptable. The only argument I see against product clarification in the case of cigarettes is that the dangers are pretty well understood by the general public, and the fact that smokers are prone to rise on their haunches and get pissed (often rightfully so since they take a lot of abuse) at the slightest comment.

But if I'm about to buy a DVD or product of any kind, I would like a quick informative post if there's something that I need to know about it. A discussion, though, of course, would be off-topic.

das
das Monkey is offline  
Old 11-06-02, 01:53 PM
  #18  
Retired
 
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 27,449
The problem is often times the single off topic "clarification" post can sometimes lead to a discussion and take the whole thread off topic.

I go to DVD Bargains to look for deals and DVD Talk/DVD Reviews for details on the discs. That's why there's seperate forums for each topic.
Josh H is offline  
Old 11-15-02, 01:55 PM
  #19  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 925
I know I am beating a dead horse, but...

The best analogy in my mind regarding this issue is not bootlegs, DIVX, or P+S but porn. If someone posted a link in The Bargain forum for a free pornographic website, it would be moved to the mature forum. Now this hypothetical porn website would say minors, under 18, cannot enter but we all know how easy it is to circumvent those restrictions.

Why does dvdtalk have one set of values/rules for pornography and another for smoking when similar laws govern both practices. As far as I know, not many people (although many kittens) have died as a result of pornography but millions of people die as a direct result of smoking. Every day 5000 children smoke their first cigarette with over half of them becoming addicted. These children have to get their cigarettes somewhere. While I agree that most of these kids get their cigarettes from another source, the internet is making it easier and easier. DVDTalk should be consistant with their rules and move all tobacco and alcohol related topics to the mature forum where they belong.
towbinaj is offline  
Old 11-15-02, 02:23 PM
  #20  
Uber Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Overlooking Pearl Harbor
Posts: 16,232
Originally posted by towbinaj
I know I am beating a dead horse, but...

The best analogy in my mind regarding this issue is not bootlegs, DIVX, or P+S but porn. If someone posted a link in The Bargain forum for a free pornographic website, it would be moved to the mature forum. Now this hypothetical porn website would say minors, under 18, cannot enter but we all know how easy it is to circumvent those restrictions.

Why does dvdtalk have one set of values/rules for pornography and another for smoking when similar laws govern both practices. As far as I know, not many people (although many kittens) have died as a result of pornography but millions of people die as a direct result of smoking. Every day 5000 children smoke their first cigarette with over half of them becoming addicted. These children have to get their cigarettes somewhere. While I agree that most of these kids get their cigarettes from another source, the internet is making it easier and easier. DVDTalk should be consistant with their rules and move all tobacco and alcohol related topics to the mature forum where they belong.
DVDTalk is not aimed at children. The purpose of having a Mature forum was not to "protect" underage site visitors, but rather to restrict to a single easily identifiable area, material that is likely to get members in trouble at work or home if they were to click on a vaguely worded thread title, or mistakenly clicked on the wrong thread.

Moreover, not only is pornography a much higher traffic topic than cigarettes (resulting in far more threads and thus needing more attention to any ancilary problems related to it) but the forum members spoke out a long time ago against the intermingling of Adult DVD material with the mainstream DVD material. That has carried over to the rest of the forums. Most likely because of how infrequent it comes up, as well as the general lack of problem this causes on the forums (you can't smell smoke over the 'Net, so the irritation factor is much lower)...there has never been any hue and cry to stop the posting of cigarette or alcohol related topics/bargains.

Finally, please keep in mind that if we allowed the posting of porn related deals in the bargains forums, we'd treat posts about how damaging to women it is and how it's so closely tied in with many other crimes the same way...they'd be considered off topic posts likely to derail the discussion about the deal and would be edited out if they didn't stop.
Blade is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.