Keyser Soze

So... my "Song of the South on dvd" thread in reviews wasn't the reason for this new rule... (good)

Anyhow, it's nice for everyone to be on the same page.

-k
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RandyC

We are glad you understand and agree with our new "Keyser Rule."

Keyser Soze

[slaps himself on the forehead...] <B>Doh!</B>

Oh well, wouldn't be the first time. Remember... I was the one who got the "lock your own threads" option taken away too.

(Are you sure you guys don't want to ban me?) Maybe <B><I>I'm</B></I> the true reason that the fun left the forum!



-keyser "making trouble" soze
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new2theplace

Since it seems to have been determined that ANY discussion of bootlegs is no longer allowed at DVDTalk, I am amazed to see this thread which not only mentions the word "bootleg" many times, but actually talks about where they can be found. I'm confident that this terrible thread will be locked as soon as possible.

Blade

If you really think that a thread needs moderator attention, it's easier, and much more effective, to use the Report this Post to a Moderator feature, than to create a post in this forum.

However, from what I assume is a sarcastic tone in your post, I presume that you think we've gone overboard in some way. If you'd like to discuss that further, feel free.

In this particular case, the thread is discussing another site's policy on bootlegs, not bootlegs themselves. Should the thread head in that direction, I'm sure the moderators will take care of it then (or as soon as they are notified).

chess

while i completely understand geoff's new policy, i also saw a distinct value in the two big "bootleg" threads (Star Wars/Indy) which i'm sure was the reason they were allowed to exist in the first place:

so that DVD talkers weren't getting ripped off with shoddy products...regardless of their source. there are simply a lot of variations of these movies on DVD and it's important that people know the good from the bad from the ugly.

my guess in regards to both trilogies is that anyone who goes through the trouble of researching those threads to GET THE BEST POSSIBLE PRESENTATION...will undoubtedly buy the official releases for the same reason. i know i will.

in regards to the star wars trilogy, i think the "5-star set" pretty much ended the quality debate...which was largely the reason it was closed i suspect. the discussion had changed from a debate about which version was best to a "meet and greet" for sources.

but i have yet to hear of a quality widescreen boot of the indy trilogy, and i wish that thread could have stayed around as i'll probably eventually buy a boot set...but probably not the right one.

slippery slope? maybe. but i see a distinct difference between

a) discussing the general quality of different versions of films that are unavailable and unplanned on the DVD format with plans to buy the official release in the future.

b) discussing boots of films that are in theaters or have existing/planned releases.

to me it is quite literally the difference between stealing and borrowing...but maybe i'm rationalizing.

i personally own 3 bootlegs...probably 3 more in my future if there's no indy announcement...and song of the south has suddenly peaked my interest [thanks keyser for contributing to my delinquency]. Anyway, the point is that i'm not a regular consumer of bootleg material, and my guess is that i represent a large majority of DVDtalkers in that regard.

TK-421

It's a disappointment that a discussion of the various features and qualities of the discs has to be squashed like this. While this is a "private" forum and I can't claim any first amendment rights per say, there is nothing illegal about the discussion of illegal products. I am also curious Geoff, why did you decide to make this decision?

It's unfortunate that this policy has been established, as I was a contributor to the Star Wars threads. At least the threads weren't deleted, so people can still refer back to them.

Static Cling

Did you read the thread all the way before posting?

http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthr...35#post2461435

TK-421

Indeed I did, this post is quite vague though.

Unless I'm not aware of it, I don't have access to the dialogue in the Mods forum, so I don't know what issues and concerns the people who moderate the forum brought up.

bboisvert

Not to open a can of worms here, but...

How does this new policy affect the "replacement covers" thread:

http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthr...hreadid=208779

Which often discusses creating covers for unavailable DVDs and also links to sites that provide custom Star Wars and Indiana Jones covers? What are the new guidelines for that thread?

DVDave

Well, I may be a little late here, but review of bootlegs isn't new for DVD sites. thedigitalbits did some reviews of the infamous Star Wars bootlegs back in 2000, as well as some other titles. They have also exhausted other means to get the Star Wars Trilogy on DVD as well. They also had a hand in getting EP1 on DVD quickly. A link to that ongoing cycle is here (granted it is an old discussion):
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/starwarsdvd/index.html
People ARE going to buy these as most people want these movies on DVD, and, in the Star Wars arena, have had these movies released on VHS, yet no barebones release on DVD. The review thread merely helps me make an informed decision and not put any more money in the bootleggers pocket than necessary. Just look at any auction site that has these bootlegs available and, legal or not, people ARE buying them at ridiculus prices. They were before i saw any "reviews" posted in this forum, and they will after this ridiculus policy of not allowing discussion on this issue is implemented as well. What is this forum for, is it for discussion not for anyone to create rules based on them getting up on a soapbox (OK, so maybe I am too ).
To quote, Chess said,
I am in agreement with that as well as the fact that, even though I've bought the bootlegs, I most likely will buy the official released versions. However, it is highly likely that the original version of the Star Wars Trilogy will not be released AT ALL on DVD due to Lucas mucking up the movies by constantly changing them. This further muddies up the discussion.
I, for one, think that this policy of not allowing this discussion should not be because a vocal (or maybe a couple more) person believes that these bootleg reviews should not even be discussed. I see their points to some extent, but i do not necessarily agree with the supression of discussion of this issue simply because these bootlegs are illegal. The fact of the matter is that most of these bootlegs are crap, little better than VHS, however even the diehard DVD fans on here are STILL buying them.

Then again, don't listen to me, I have bought bootlegs, and have also sped and not worn my seatbelt on occasion so I may not be the one to listen to one this subject

Commander Dan

This is an EXCELLENT point that deserves reiteration, and quite frankly, there is nothing illegal about the discussion of bootlegs or even where to get them. Only the ACT of actually purchasing and/or selling them is illegal.

Now do not get me wrong, as I am not totally ignorant. I am well aware that if folks are discussing bootlegs, then that promotes the sale of them. However, we DO legally have the RIGHT to discuss them if we so desire. (Although admittedly, I am not sure what “legal” rights we actually have in the context of an Internet message forum.) After all, the burden of obeying or disobeying the copyright law rests solely on the individual in question, and NOT DVDTalk.

So, what we have here is a kind of enforced censorship by DVDTalk when it comes to discussing boots. I find myself asking, “Why would DVDTalk deny us our legal right of free speech and discussion?” I speculate that it may be because DVDTalk wishes not to invoke the wrath of copyright holders. Although, I do not really know what the copyright holders could possibly do to DVDTalk if they allowed the discussion to take place.

All of this is leading me to the question “WHY can’t we discuss bootlegs or where to get them?” Rules are fine, and I typically do not go around trying to “make trouble.” However, I respond much better to a rule or enforcement if I know WHY the rule is in effect, even if I do not happen to agree with the reasoning.

TK-421

While I agree with your points Commander Dan, unfortunately the response will boil down to "This is my forum. If you don't like the rules, go play somewhere else."

This is similar to the uproar when Geoff laid down the rule that gun talk was prohibited on the forum last year (or was it two years ago?). Everyone interested in the subject complained, but ultimately Geoff said he hates guns, and that was that. (Note: If this has changed, please let me know.)

And I'm not necessarily disagreeing with this, Geoff puts up the money for the hardware, hosting, bandwidth, etc.. But I am with you in that I want to know why the final decision was made.

DVDave

"Gun Rule"? now this "I say so" attitude makes more sense. I don't remember that incident. So I reckon actually making any point contrary to the site admin's feelings or political views is wrong now? Please tell me this is not correct.

RandyC

A bit much to make that leap to "making any point contrary to the site admin's feelings or political views."

There are some rules that have been in place. Some based on legal issues. Some on offensiveness. Some that are totally arbitrary.

The gun rule was not an incident but a request by Geoff to not post about guns as far as bargains. That was his wish and it is his site.

renaldow

Don't want to get ripped off by buying a shoddy product? Don't buy a bootleg. Simple as that. No need to discuss it. There are plenty of places on the Internet to get information about bootlegs, DVDTalk doesn't necessarily have to be one of them.

It's Geoff's board, it's Geoff's decision. No amount of arguing or whining will get him to change the policy back.

DVDave

Whining is what brought this policy, or at the very least this thread, on to begin with. Just as whining is what is moving DVDs to pan and scan that i also see constant whining about on this forum. To attack someone by saying they are whining in itself is against this forums rules. The point is that this is supposed to be a discussion place (ie forum). To implement rules based on one or a minority view isn't a "forum" any longer. Whether people want to talk about "shoddy bootlegs" "why pan and scan instead of widescreen" is kinda the whole point to a forum in my eyes. I constantly see administrators pointing out people to "move to another thread" if they don't like whichever one they are whining or "threadcrapping" in to begin with. Seems to me that everyone who doesn't like reviews or discussion of bootlegs or whatever should just move to another threrad. Bootlegs are a nuisance that seems to become worse as DVD progresses and to leave that out of a DVD discussion kinda defeats true discussion.

chess

i already have the star wars trilogy in a fairly unshoddy [thank you very little] set. i'm just glad i had the opportunity to discuss it first.

exactly! bootlegs are NOT hard to find, nor is information about them. my question was simply "what's the harm?" without that thread, i would still have bought a set of bootlegs, but probably not the best set available and probably for 3 times what i paid.

nobody is WHINING or ARGUING. i was making a point in what i thought was a fair and un-inflammatory [look it up] way in a forum that is dedicated to that sort of thing.

truth is, i'm all set and could care less whether he changes the policy or not. thanks for playing.

Blade

This is really getting done to death here gang.

We decided to stop these discussion/review threads mostly because they were taking too much effort to moderate. The Indy thread wasn't up for a week before fights started breaking out, and eventually, the first version of that thread was actually deleted by the thread starter. The Star Wars thread has also been constantly edited to remove little fights and constant requests for information on where to buy bootlegs. And it wasn't just a few people. It would be two people who would have a brief fight; we'd come in, clean things up, and send warnings to the people involved, and they'd stop; we'd post a warning; a few days of peace would pass; wash, rinse, repeat. After this happens 3 or 4 times, along with the edits for people asking where to buy, it gets a little tired.

In addition, threads like this were constantly popping up and we'd have to reply to them too. We've actually banned people over this because they refused to drop it and started spamming the forum with this nonsense (that was over a year ago).

The whole idea was simply that we knew these titles (specifically Star Wars) were very popular and that there were a lot of bootleg versions out there. As I stated earlier in this thread, Star Wars is kind of a special case, as we were told these titles would not be available for 6 years (when this all began) on DVD. As a result, we thought that we could help keep our members from getting ripped off when buying a bootleg.

As for why we were so selective about these things...we are a DVD site, and we like to encourage the studios to participate in our forums and to provide prizes for contests and other information and support. Allowing our forums to become a haven for bootleg discussion is a good way to discourage that kind of studio involvement, but we thought the Star Wars thread could be of enough benefit to our members to take that risk.

Personally, I agree a lot with what chess said:But as he said, it is a rationalization. We weren't concerned so much that we were breaking any law as much as we were worried about alienating the studios and encouraging bootlegs in general.

Indy was closed for the above reasons, but also because there don't seem to be any good boots out to really discuss. The current thread pretty much covers the state of Indy boots.

And while Keyser's thread was very interesting, it was just inviting more and more bootleg threads, and that was never our intention.

And now I've just spent another hour explaining all this. Which is why we said "based on moderator forum discussion." I realize that everyone wants to know what's going on, but please understand that we're all volunteering our time here, and that explaining these things can sometimes take a lot of our time. When we have to keep doing it and saying the same thing over and over again, or address a tangent of a basic point, it starts becoming more trouble than it's worth.

So as it stands now, we're going to have no more reviews of bootlegs or much of any other kind of discussion (except in the most general terms or for identification purposes) about bootlegs. If you see a problem with a thread, please use the Report this post to a Moderator feature.

Finally, this discussion has pretty much run it's course. Let's try living with the new policy for a while before we have any more discussion about it.

Thank you for all your input and I hope that this at least serves to show that we are trying to balance the concerns of all our members while trying to bring them the information they look for from our site, and that we do indeed try to address concerns that are brought up in this forum.

Closing thread.