Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

I side with both of you. I think OriginalOAR's pressbook notes can pretty much be taken as gospel regarding first run releases (Old Yeller, Parent Trap, etc.), but I agree with Cheato regarding these books containing untrustworthy information regarding re-releases. Disney was notorious for re-releaseing their classic, acadmey-ratio animation in the wrong aspect ratio (and even re-recorded soundtracks [Fantasia]), and they did so into the '90s.

But I say again, I see no reason to doubt the pressbooks regarding first run releases. I'm really not so concerned with artists' intentions and their clashes with the front office as it regards to OAR. Those issues are important, but I think they need to be set aside for another arguement at another time as they open up a whole other nest of issues. OAR, as in "how it originally appeared at the time of release in the best theaters under optimal conditions" is all anyone can hope for. Whether the decision to show Polyana at 1.75 was made by the marketing department instead of Ken Annakin I don't really care, it was shown upon original release in 1.75 and anyone attempting to exhibit or view the film as originally released will abide by that number.

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

Nothing was glossed over. I presented to you how the pressbooks show the instructions for how these films were to be presented. These were sent out by the film's producers/distributer's to theatres for everything from promoting the film, advertising, and how it was to be shown in the theatre. I have to disagree with you in that I believe the original theatrical ratio is what we should be wanting, the way it was originally shown. We will just have to disagree.

I'm not going to try to quote everything you just posted as well, as I think we will just wind up debating in circles. You can either take it or leave it as far as the information given in these pressbooks.

The theatrical aspect ratio of premiere release films during this time is what I'm trying to get out. They were made, framed, and exhibited in a certain ratio. As far as the re-releases go, I've already said Disney was wrong in several instances of re-releasing their Academy Ratio films matted during this era and it has been well noted.

For example, in the mid-1980s there was a huge backlash when a theatrical re-release of Snow White was matted and Siskel and Ebert (as well as many film critics) publicly lamented the decision (as well they should have). In response, though, Disney decided to reissue all of its animated films with "more open" frames. In 1992, when Sleeping Beauty was reissued it was shown in a 1.85:1 ratio....does that mean that that was the intended ratio? Or should we go with the initial theatrical presentation in 1959 Scope ratio as the theatrical ratio?

As far as intent, I take less and less stock these days in what a filmmaker says their intent was as most tend to change their minds over time. Between Lucas constantly tinkering with the original Star Wars for example, or having the director of photograghy decide to use a ratio of 2:1 for the release of Apocalypse Now and The Last Emperor on DVD instead of their original theatrical ratios, etc., I go with the original way a film was presented in the theatre. That's why I like Scorcese, he says you film with the conditions you are given at the time, and he doesn't go back and try to change his films.

But back on topic...

Couldn't have said it better myself...Thanks...



Scott

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

BTW, AlwaysOAR are you Scott McQueen? The guy who did the restoration on Polyanna and Bednobs and Broomsticks.

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

No, that wouldn't be me. I am familiar with what he did to Bedknobs And Broomsticks, however. Scott MacQueen decided that the 1996 laserdisc for Bedknobs and Broomsticks would be released open-matte for the entire movie just to preserve the complete animated frame for the Naboombu sequences.

While I can understand McQueen's desire for animation fans to see the whole animated frame, I disagreed with his idea that the whole movie should be presented on disc only open-matte, and no widescreen option, simply to preserve the animated portions. Bedknobs is a widescreen film, and I was surprised he elected to go just with the open-matte simply for the animated sequence.


Scott

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

I wanted to add to the list a few more pressbooks I acquired recently...


"King Of The Grizzlies" 1970 Premiere Release Information:

"THE ASPECT RATIO is 1:75 to 1
Adhere to this ratio to achieve the best screen image possible, and a quality image for your theatre."

(NOTE: While the theatrical framing for this film was 1.75:1, the DVD release is (Open-matte/ Pan & Scanned?) at 1.33:1)



"Ride a Wild Pony"/ "Dumbo" 1975 Combo Premiere/ Re-Release Information:

(NOTE: When "Ride a Wild Pony" premiered, a re-release of "Dumbo" was attached with it)

"The Aspect Ratio for "Ride A Wild Pony" and "Dumbo" to achieve the best screen image is 1:75 to 1"

(NOTE: While the theatrical ratio for "Ride a Wild Pony" is 1.75:1, the Disney Movie Club Exclusive DVD release is at a (Open-matte/ Pan & Scan?) 1.33:1 ratio. Also, apparently "Dumbo" was presented in 1975 in an aspect ratio of 1.75:1 which hadn't been invented until almost 15 years after "Dumbo" premiered, and therefore this showing is an example of the frowned upon re-release of Disney animated films in improper aspect ratios.)



Also, I ran across the pressbooks for the Paramount/ Walt Disney co-productions of 1980's "Popeye", and 1981's "Dragonslayer". There are no projection instructions for these, though they were advertised in Technovision and Panavision respectively, and I'm pretty sure their 2.35:1 ratios on DVD are correct.

Of these four, Ride A Wild Pony I had already known about, but wanted to add to my collection of pressbooks.


Scott

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

OK, here's a couple of more pressbook release info to get out...



"Bon Voyage!" 1962 Premiere Release Information:

"MR. EXHIBITOR!

To Present this Wonderful Screen Entertainment at its Best, Project at ASPECT RATIO 1:75 to 1"

(NOTE: While the theatrical framing for this film was 1.75:1, the DVD release is Pan & Scanned at 1.33:1)



"The One And Only, Genuine, Original Family Band" 1968 Premiere Release Information:

(NOTE: The theatre kit states that the running time of the film is 116 minutes, 58 seconds, while the DVD release is only 110 minutes. That is a loss of almost 7 minutes.)

"Mr. Exhibitor - An Important Note
Give your patrons the best possible picture on your theatre screen. For top projection results in the presentation of "The One and Only, Genuine, Original Family Band" you must use aspect ratio 1.85:1"

(NOTE: While the theatrical framing is 1.85:1, the DVD release is Pan & Scanned at 1.33:1)



...Family Band I had also known about already, but wanted it for my collection...Anyway, I'll update the list shortly...


Scott

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

not that HDNet Movies is 100% accurate but 'Dragonslayer' was presented in 2.35 - if that helps out at all.

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

It's my belief too that "Dragonslayer" was originally shown at 2.35:1, as well as any of the Disney films on DVD at that ratio. Collecting the original release pressbooks just confirms this if that info is in there.

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

Here's two more original release pressbook info...


"Jungle Cat" 1960 Premiere Release Information:

(NOTE: The live-action featurette, "The Hound That Thought He Was A Racoon" premiered with this)

"MISTER EXHIBITOR, PLEASE NOTE!

Give your patrons the best possible picture on your theatre screen. For top projection results in presentation of JUNGLE CAT, do not exceed ASPECT RATIO 1:75 to 1 or you will lose top and bottom of picture."

(NOTE: "Jungle Cat" is presented on Walt Disney's Legacy Collection: True-Life Adventures, Volume 3 - Creatures of the Wild, at a 1.33:1 (Open-matte/Pan & Scan?) ratio.)



:up: "Never A Dull Moment" 1968 Premiere Release Information:

"MR. EXHIBITOR: THE ASPECT RATIO of "Never A Dull Moment" is 1:75 to 1
Adhere to this ratio to achieve the best screen image possible, and a quality image for your theatre"

(NOTE: The Disney DVD release presents the film in its original theatrical aspect ratio of 1.75:1)



I'll update the list shortly...


Scott

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

toy story , the best .

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

From the Turner Classic Movies website...



:thumbsup: "The Shaggy Dog" 1959 Premiere Release Information:
http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/archive/vie...ntentId=205948

(NOTE: The theatre kit states a runtime of 104 min., while the DVD releases state 102 min., that's a loss of 2 min.)

"MR. EXHIBITOR...PLEASE NOTE!

For Best Projection Results in the Presentation of "THE SHAGGY DOG" Use Aspect Ratio 1:75 to 1"

(NOTE: The 'Wild and Woolly" DVD edition of "The Shaggy Dog" is the only release to correctly present it in it's theatrical aspect ratio of 1.75:1)



:thumbsup: "Swiss Family Robinson" 1960 Premiere Release Information:
http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/archive/vie...ntentId=216100

(NOTE: The theatre kit states that the running time of the film is 2 Hours and 8 Minutes, while the DVD release is 126 minutes. That makes a loss of 2 minutes.)

"MR. EXHIBITOR...PLEASE NOTE!

Give your patrons the best possible picture on your theatre screen. For top projection results in the presentation of Walt Disney's "Swiss Family Robinson" do not exceed

ASPECT RATIO 2:35 to 1

or you will lose top and bottom of the picture"

(NOTE: The Vault Disney DVD release presents the film in its original theatrical aspect ratio of 2.35:1)



"The Absent-Minded Professor" 1961 Premiere Release Information:
http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/archive/vie...ntentId=215995

"MR. EXHIBITOR - AN IMPORTANT NOTE!

Give your patrons the best possible picture on your theatre screen. For top projection results in the presentation of "THE ABSENT-MINDED PROFESSOR" you must use

ASPECT RATIO 1:75 to 1.

WARNING: If projected at a ratio less than 1:75 to 1 there will be a black border at top and/or bottom of screen!"

(NOTE: While the original theatrical framing for this film was at 1.75:1, the DVD releases of the film are undermatted at 1.66:1)



"Bedknobs and Broomsticks" 1971 Premiere Release Information:
http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/archive/vie...ntentId=212468

(NOTE: The theatre kit states a runtime or 1 HR. 57 MIN., while the DVD releases are at 139 min., that's a gain of 22 min.)

"TO CREATE THE UTMOST MAGICAL EFFECT, "BEDKNOBS AND BROOMSTICKS" MUST BE SHOWN AT AN ASPECT RATIO OF 1:75 TO 1"

(NOTE: While the original theatrical framing for this film was at 1.75:1, the DVD releases of the film are undermatted at 1.66:1)



:thumbsup: "Herbie Rides Again" 1974 Premiere Release Information:
http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/archive/vie...ntentId=215828

"The Aspect Ratio for "HERBIE RIDES AGAIN" to achieve the best screen image is 1:75 to 1"

(NOTE: The Disney DVD release of "Herbie Rides Again" presents the film in its original theatrical aspect ratio of 1.75:1)



"Freaky Friday" 1977 Premiere Release Information:
http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/archive/vie...ntentId=210721

(NOTE: The theatre kit states a runtime of 1 hr., 35 min., while the DVD release states 98 min., that's a gain of 3 min.)

"To make "Freaky Friday" a winner on your screen THE ASPECT RATIO IS 1:75 to 1"

(NOTE: While the original theatrical framing for this film is at 1.75:1, the DVD release is overmatted at 1.85:1)



these two have no projection instructions...


1963 - Son Of Flubber/
http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/archive/vie...ntentId=215282
(NOTE: The theatre kit states a runtime of 100 min., while the DVD release states 103 min., that's a gain of 3 min.)

1969 - The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes/
http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/archive/vie...ntentId=213556


This would have been my first post, but as I wasn't able to link anything till I reached 30 posts, I had to wait.

For those of you who haven't seen a movie pressbook before, these will give you an idea of how the movies were promoted during the time of that particular movie's release.

For the above, Bedknobs and Computer don't have the ad pad inserts. Sometime during the late 60's, the ad pad became a separate item in the pressbooks, where as before, they were part of them.

Also, regarding Bedknobs above, it's my understanding that the movie was trimmed down to 117 min. before it premiered, hence the restoring of the 22 min. for the DVD releases.

Anyway, enjoy, and I'll update the list shortly...


Scott

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

I ran across this for Sleeping Beauty some time ago, but until now was unable to link. Anyway, it shows a letter from the Sleeping Beauty pressbook stating as follows...

"IMPORTANT! THE 35MM PRINT OF "SLEEPING BEAUTY" MUST BE PROJECTED AT AN ASPECT RATIO OF 2:35 TO 1"

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articl...el121508c.html

Only the Special Edition DVD has "Sleeping Beauty" in one of it's theatrical ratio's, the other ratio being the 70mm(2:20 to 1) road show version. The recent Platinum Edition has on it a print found, minus the soundtrack put on it, at the animated 2:55 to 1 ratio, which was never shown in theatres in that ratio.

On a side note, I just ordered a pressbook for SB, which according to the seller has this letter in the pressbook. If I find any other info in it, I'll update.



Finally, I recently received the following pressbook, though I already knew about it from someone else who had it...

"The Rescuers" 1977 Premiere Release Information:

"To make the world's smallest secret agents the right size to vanquish the world's wickedest woman, THE ASPECT RATIO is 1.75 to 1"

(NOTE: While the original theatrical framing of this film was 1.75:1, the DVD release is misframed at 1.66:1)


I'll update the list shortly...


Scott

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

Scott,

In what year did disney stop publishing these press books? Do you have one for Tron?

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

As far as I can tell, sometime around 1984/85. "Never Cry Wolf", from 1983, is the latest release that I have, and there was one last movie released after it from Disney that year titled "Running Brave".

There was no release from Disney in 1984 from what I can gather, and in searching for a pressbook for "The Black Cauldron" from 1985, I came across a presskit for it, which are different from the pressbooks in that all it contains is a folder with photos and a general description of the movie, and no projection instructions. I believe that presskits have been used ever since, which is too bad, and I wish they had continued with the pressbooks.

In regards to "Tron", I've yet to come across a pressbook for it. My guess is that like "Sleeping Beauty" and "The Black Cauldron", it was shown in both 70mm(2.20:1) and 35mm(2.35:1) ratios. 2.35:1, of course, being the more common, traditional theatre ratio, was what most saw it in, while the 70mm version was for special engagements and/or roadshow viewings, somewhat what IMAX is now. Just a theory anyway.



Scott

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

Sometime ago, I had ordered the pressbooks for "Westward Ho The Wagons!" and "The Light In The Forest". Both of them had a lot of cutouts in them, and will never buy a pressbook with cutouts again. I've since gotten an uncut pressbook for Westward Ho..., as posted earlier in this thread, and the one with cutouts in it, along with Forest, I took to a memorablia store where I got store credit, which I used to purchase a couple of other pressbooks already posted in this thread.

Anyway, the projection instructions from the Forest pressbook were as follows...


"The Light In The Forest" 1958 Premiere Release Information:

"MR. EXHIBITOR - - - PLEASE NOTE

For Best Projection Results in the Presentation of "THE LIGHT IN THE FOREST"
Use Aspect Ratio 1:75 to 1."

(NOTE: This film has NOT been released on DVD. Tell Disney you want it, and released in the proper framing of 1.75:1. Call Disney at 1-800-723-4763.)


I'll update the list shortly...


Scott

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

I came across this auction today for the pressbook for "The Watcher In The Woods"
http://shop.vendio.com/comicod/item/...871/index.html

If you click the second picture, is states...

"THE ASPECT RATIO FOR A SPIRITED IMAGE IS 1:75 TO 1"

Normally, you won't see images for a pressbook for sale other than the front cover and back cover, so I thought I'd link this for those of you interested in seeing it. I don't know how long this will be up, but we have the info for it anyway.

In the pressbook, though it's hard to make out, the running time states 1 hr., 40 min., while the DVD releases from both Anchor Bay and Disney have an 83 min. runtime, that's a loss of 17 minutes!
Also, both the Anchor Bay and Disney releases are misframed at a 1.85:1 ratio. I do know someone as well who has this pressbook, and this is the same info that he has.

Regarding Watcher, from what I understand, for the aborted initial premiere for it in the spring of 1980, the film was without an ending because the effects couldn't be completed in time. Now on the DVDs, there is the film's ending that eventually made it for its theatrical run in October of 81 and two others, running 6 minutes and 14 minutes respectively.

I'll update the list shortly...


Scott

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

I have a few more aspect ratio information to add...



:up: "Escape To Witch Mountain" 1975 Premiere Release Information:

"The Aspect Ratio for "Escape to Witch Mountain" to achieve the best screen image is 1:75 to 1"

(NOTE: All DVD releases properly display the film in its correct theatrical aspect ratio.)



"The Last Flight Of Noah's Ark" 1980 Premiere Release Information:

"THE ASPECT RATIO TO CAPTURE ALL THE ADVENTURE IS 1.75 to 1"

(NOTE: Both the Anchor Bay and Disney DVD releases are misframed at 1.85:1.)



"Something Wicked This Way Comes" 1983 Premiere Release Information:

(NOTE: The theatre kit states that the running time of the film is 97 minutes, while the Disney DVD release is 95 minutes. That makes a loss of 2 minutes.)

"THE ASPECT RATIO FOR A SUPER IMAGE IS 1:75 to 1"

(NOTE: While both the Anchor Bay and Disney DVD releases have a Pan & Scan version on them, the Anchor Bay DVD is misframed at 1.66:1, and the Disney DVD release is misframed at 1.85:1.)

...and I don't know the run time for the Anchor Bay release...


Also, for 1963's The Sword In The Stone, there are no projection instructions for this one, unfortunately, though I'm inclined to believe that it was probably released at 1.75:1, can't be sure though.


I'll be updating the list shortly...


Scott

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

I wanted to add that I'll be receiving the following pressbooks...


1955's Lady And The Tramp

and

1960's The Sign Of Zorro


I'll get the information out for these, along with those previously mentioned, about the second week of July when I'm back in the states.


Scott

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

I wonder why Disney's preferred ratio was 1.75:1, when everyone else was using 1.66:1 or 1.85:1?

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

^ or even 2.35 (post 1953 films) - I'm sure anamorphic was costly.

curious to know about Lady and the Tramp - since it was shot and shown in select theatres at it's full 'Cinemascope' 2.55 aspect ratio

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but open matte 2.55:1 would mean it shows more image than 2.35:1 on the left and right but LESS image on the top and bottom. Correct?

The comparison shots I saw are simply wider and show the same top/bottom.

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

it was wider because it was considered to be released in Cinemascope:

interview with Robert Harris and Theo Gluck


RAH: What is the proper projected or viewing aspect ratio for Sleeping Beauty, and how was it ascertained?

TG: Well... there were multiple signs pointing us to presenting the film in a 2.55:1 aspect ratio for this Blu-ray release.

First and foremost - once our partners at Lowry Digital scanned the full image area on the Technirama negative and we started viewing dailies it became immediately apparent that we were not looking a 2.35 AR. We normally do not have any crop applied when screening dailies so we knew we were seeing everything possible that is on the negative.

In addition - when we were looking at surviving cels and backgrounds at the Studio's Animation Research Library (which is an invaluable resource), it was quite obvious that the layout design and camera marks were set for 2.55.

Then there is the fact that in a memo dated July 28, 1953, the Studio green lit the CinemaScope version of Lady and the Tramp, while it also established a "Standard Version" and a CinemaScope Version production number for Sleeping Beauty -- #2082 and #2083. As the CinemaScope standard at the time was 2.55, (and that is clearly evident in Lady and the Tramp) Sleeping Beauty too would have been designed at 2.55.

In the end, Lady was adapted for CinemaScope but it was truncated on the left side of the screen when it went out with an optical track since the CinemaScope presentation spec had changed by the time the film was ultimately released in 1955. Sleeping Beauty fared far better as it had been designed to be in CinemaScope and thus could be trimmed to meet the requirements of 2.35 CinemaScope 35mm prints. But in the final analysis, there is animation all the way out to the far edges of the frame that had not been seen. It is this full 2.55 version that is coming out on Blu-ray on October 7.

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

Thanks, Giles, for proving my point earlier in this thread.

Rave all you want about "OAR," but sometimes it's neither (a) the dimensions that were planned by the creators, nor (b) the ratio that looks best. I'll take my FS Jungle Book and Robin Hood and 2.55:1 Sleeping Beauty. Enjoy your cropped versions that some marketer says you should have watched 20 or 30 or 40 years ago.

These pressbooks were written by marketers for marketing purposes, and they would say "project at 100:1" if they thought it would sell more tickets.

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but it is not that simple. There are a lot of considerations, each film needs to be taken on an individual basis, and some films OAR or approriate AR are highly contentious. Your belief that it's cut and dry and simple and you are right is way too simplified.

Re: The Disney Films - Theatrical Aspect Ratios Verified
 

Giles pretty much answered your question in his post above. My take on it is that I prefer to see how it was originally shown in the theatre. By 1955/56, from what I have gathered, the Cinemascope standard had changed from 2.55 to 2.35, so while Lady and the Tramp was premiered at 2.55, Sleeping Beauty was premiered at 2.35, even though it was animated at 2.55. Even Walt himself sent out a letter in the pressbooks specifically instructing movie theatres to project at that ratio.

Now while I don't anymore pay much attention to what was supposedly the intent on how something was to be shown, as the supposed intent can and does change over time by filmmakers, I stick with the theatrical version. As the theatrical version for SB was 2.35:1, as even instructed by Walt Disney himself in this instance, and some would argue that only the intent matters, well I don't see what there is to disagree about. While I have no problem having the animated ratio alongside the theatrical ratio, it shouldn't be at the expense of the theatrical version.

For instance, I no more want the full animated ratio only of a film than I would want the open matte only of a live action film, say like Air Force One, in which a 1.33:1 open matte exists. Even though it exists, it's not how it was shown in theatres.

This is what ended up on the Platinum Edition, as a negative was found, minus the soundtracks, at the full animated 2.55 ratio, one that was never premiered in theatres at that ratio.



Scott