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Colorized films on DVD -- NOT a general discussion on film colorization

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Old 10-19-08, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by bsmith
Good point, look at the Mystery Science Theater productions that are obviously doing just that.

In an attempt to try to get the thread back on track. I believe the intent of the discussion was not on the merits of colorization as a whole but to just discuss new releases that have been colorized and sharing whether they were any good.
Absolutely bsmith - and Like Baracine, I hope others on this forum have a chance to see and critique the colorized versions of "Holiday Inn" and "it's A Wondeful Life" in an objective manner without comparison to the original black and white.

Last edited by Barry Sandrew; 10-19-08 at 01:36 PM.
Old 10-19-08, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Barry Sandrew
We've found that in most cases having both versions on the DVD actually draws greater attention to the black and white original than if it were released alone
This is were I start to have issue with it. This isn't a rifftrax for a movie or an alternate Cinematic Titanic cut done just for comedy value that are seen as purely niche. This is the colorized version put out there as the primary reason to buy the movie with the B&W tossed in as a bonus feature. It is sad when these colorized movies are promoted as the correct way to see the film with the antiquated B&W version thrown in so you can see how much "better" these movies are in color.

Criterion has it right. There are promoting the original version of the movie and tossing a clip of the colorized version as a bonus feature. Sony, Paramount, Fox and Legend are pretending like the only reason you should buy things like 20 Million Miles to Earth or It's a Wonderful Life is the fact they are "finally" in color the way they were intended. All this does is continue to degrade the public perception of B&W movies and reinforce the idea that old movies are inferior to new movies.

I also don't want to hear that sales are bad without a color version. Criterion seems to have little trouble selling very obscure movies without butchering them. Major studios could sell these films in their original versions if they put some effort into promoting them. Warner did a very good job of promoting the classic King Kong with special editions and tins and it sold just fine without needing a coat of paint.

Legend obviously needs people to think color is better because their whole business is based around that idea, but I think in the long term they are only hurting the appreciation of classic films.
Old 10-19-08, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by darkside
This is were I start to have issue with it. This isn't a rifftrax for a movie or an alternate Cinematic Titanic cut done just for comedy value that are seen as purely niche. This is the colorized version put out there as the primary reason to buy the movie with the B&W tossed in as a bonus feature. It is sad when these colorized movies are promoted as the correct way to see the film with the antiquated B&W version thrown in so you can see how much "better" these movies are in color.

Criterion has it right. There are promoting the original version of the movie and tossing a clip of the colorized version as a bonus feature. Sony, Paramount, Fox and Legend are pretending like the only reason you should buy things like 20 Million Miles to Earth or It's a Wonderful Life is the fact they are "finally" in color the way they were intended. All this does is continue to degrade the public perception of B&W movies and reinforce the idea that old movies are inferior to new movies.

I also don't want to hear that sales are bad without a color version. Criterion seems to have little trouble selling very obscure movies without butchering them. Major studios could sell these films in their original versions if they put some effort into promoting them. Warner did a very good job of promoting the classic King Kong with special editions and tins and it sold just fine without needing a coat of paint.

Legend obviously needs people to think color is better because their whole business is based around that idea, but I think in the long term they are only hurting the appreciation of classic films.
The b/w versions of these movies had already been released multiple times before releasing the colorized version. From a marketing perspective they are just trying to entice a double dip or to get new purchasers that stayed away from a b/w movie. Welcome to sales 101.

Now can we get back on topic. If you want to discuss the philosphical merits of colorization then start a new thread. It was never the intent of this thread.
Old 10-19-08, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by bsmith
The b/w versions of these movies had already been released multiple times before releasing the colorized version. From a marketing perspective they are just trying to entice a double dip or to get new purchasers that stayed away from a b/w movie. Welcome to sales 101.

Now can we get back on topic. If you want to discuss the philosphical merits of colorization then start a new thread. It was never the intent of this thread.
Thank you for this. In threads like this one where there is no consensus on the basic subject and posters don't extend the courtesy of (1) finding out what the thread is about or (2) reading the preceding posts before venturing in with a well-rehearsed opinion that has been better expressed at least 1,000 times before, interruptions like this one are to be expected.

So let me reiterate a few facts that shouldn't have to be repeated every time someone comes back from outer space and becomes aware of the existence of this thread. In the future, all we'll have to do is cut and paste the following:

1. Colorized movies are not made with the intention of becoming a substitute for the B&W originals.
2. Colorized movies are not created with the intention of taking over the planet or subverting democracies around the world.
3. Appreciation of colorized movies is a matter of personal taste.
4. Personal tastes cannot be dictated. It they could, there wouldn't be any slasher movie threads in DVDTalk forums and opera companies wouldn't have to struggle to make ends meet.
5. Barack Obama is not a Muslim.
6. Barack Obama is not an Arab.
7. Barack Obama is not a terrorist.
8. Joe the Plumber is not a plumber and his name ain't Joe.
9. The earth is round, it revolves around the sun and is older than 6,000 years.
10. 2 + 2 = 4.

Thank you.

Last edited by baracine; 10-19-08 at 03:28 PM.
Old 10-19-08, 05:00 PM
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Speaking of cut and paste:

http://www.orsonwelles.co.uk/colorization.htm

A Black and White Issue?
Colorization, preservation and the digital future
by Richard Price



Colorization. Colourisation. It is easy to say that whichever way you spell it there is nothing good about the process. The term is a generic one for the technique that involves transferring black and white film to an electronic form and then computer colouring the picture by selectively filling in the parts of the image with colour pixels. The finished result is then sold for home viewing either on television, or on video or DVD. Colorized black and white films are not transferred back to 35mm for theatrical projection. Many visitors to this site are likely to have strong views against colorization, but this article will attempt as balanced a view as is reasonably possible and will touch on related, but much larger, conservation versus restoration issues. The whole colorization debate has a slightly 1980s feel to it, though there has been a recent resurgence of interest in the process, by its promoters if not the public.

Colouring monochrome films is nothing new: it is nearly as old as Cinema, with the earliest hand coloured films dating from at least 1896. Before then, photographic lantern slides were often coloured in by hand, achieving a certain realism for Victorian audiences. A development of hand colouring was the Pathecolor stencil process, a semi-mechanised form of the same thing, used from 1905 to the early sound period. If, for instance a film was to coloured with three colours, the technique would have involved taking three identical films and cutting out minute portions of the image on each frame. For example, if a brown cow on a green field with a blue sky was the image to be coloured the operator would, on a device like an editing machine, view a black and white frame of a positive print back projected onto a ground glass screen. He (or normally she: cheap female labour seems to have been the rule) traced the image on screen with a pointer.



The movements of the pointer were then reproduced in much smaller scale by a pantograph (left) connected to the pointer. At the other end of the pantograph was a vibrating needle that cut out a very small section of the film. This was done for each frame of film as the operator advanced the film frame by frame. Using our example above, the operator would trace and cut out every image of the cow on a given sequence of film. This film would then be the stencil for brown. This process would be repeated for green and blue, resulting in three stencils in all. The first stencil and the monochrome positive print would then together be run passed a pad impregnated with brown dye. The process would then be repeated on the part coloured film with the green and blue stencils until there was a copy of the film coloured brown, green and blue: the projection print.

As would be expected, this would be a long and costly process where five or six colours were being used in each frame (the release prints of the feature Cyrano de Bergerac (1923) (right) took a couple of years to colour) though a considerable number of prints could be made from one set of stencils. We might see colorization as an update of this process: black and white films being made more commercial by having them in colour rather than genuinely achieving a greater realism, even if the latter is the stated aim.



Certainly the techniques are similar in that areas of individual frames are coloured artificially, though colorization does not suffer from the colours misaligning with the image: stencils often could not be cut with accuracy, the stencil and the film being coloured sometimes did not line up in the printing process, and the dyes might run.

Colorization, despite improvements over the years, does not in the view of most achieve success in the way of tonal range or subtly, despite claims to do otherwise, the colour tending to be solid "blocks" of colour, the backgrounds being particularly unsuccessful and the choice of colours often arbitrary. The finished result has been likened to a moving lobby card, though this is one of the kinder comments.

Colorization is not a recent process. Universal toyed with a Japanese system in the early sixties and experimentally coloured sections of Psycho. It is perhaps a paradigm, both as to artistry and authenticity, for the whole colorization debate. This was a film deliberately designed in black and white allegedly because it was believed that red blood going down the plughole in the shower sequence would not get past the censor. One assumes that in the colorization test the blood was coloured red, not, as one might facetiously argue would have been more accurate, brown because apocryphally chocolate sauce was used since it photographed better in black and white. [Left; that's another fine mess you've gotten me into...]



Neither Hitchcock nor Universal was impressed with the results and the idea was shelved for a few years. Some stock footage and Betty Boop cartoons were colorized in the 1970s, and Universal again became interested in the early 1980s, by which time there were two rival processes in existence, Colorization Inc and American Film Technologies Inc's system Colorimaged. Both these systems had their experimental roots going back several years. The writer remembers the interest shown in the early 1980s when on British television the BBC aired sequences of a worn Chaplin print that had been colorized. Interestingly, and ominously, no attempt seemed to have been made to source a decent copy to colorize.

Colorization became popular when a certain level of competence had been achieved and when Hal Roach Studios Inc (by then having no connection with the great man himself) acquired a substantial holding the company that soon was to become Colorization Inc. Roach's film Topper was the first colorized film to be released in the United States on home video in 1985, followed by Way Out West, The Outlaw and It's a Wonderful Life. The novelty value led some who had been associated with these films to write favourably, even warmly, about the results, with Cary Grant, Stan Laurel's daughter Lois, and, initially, Frank Capra giving their endorsement.

A greater commercial impetus came with the decision in June 1987 of the Copyright Office of the Library of Congress to allow colorization to extend the copyright life of a film, though only in the colour, not the black and white, form. And of course television stations could now run the same old films colorized if not at prime time then at least no longer relegated to the late late show. [Right: Colour film from stencil]



We have to ask whether colorization, as it was in the 1980s or is now, does any harm. Is the criticism justified or is it just armchair snobbery from the highbrows? What is wrong with watching and enjoying the It's a Wonderful Life colorized? It has long been a Christmas favourite, especially on American television, and many who watch it no doubt do so without considering that artificial colour detracts from the black and white film, let alone considering it to be a "moral" issue, as do others who consider themselves purists.

More importantly, no damage is ever done to original material. It has even been argued that the process has gone some way to assist with the preservation of film by raising the public awareness of old films. The more you treat colorization as a moral issue the more arguments and counter-arguments present themselves. Does, for instance, the fact that Stan Laurel in later life regretted that the Laurel and Hardy feature Babes in Toyland had been made in black and white justify its colorization?

From the mid eighties when colorized films began to be shown on American television, opinion of audiences was generally against them, favouring original black and white. Then the veteran filmmakers started to come out against the process: Frank Capra changed his mind about It's A Wonderful Life and Billy Wilder asked whether colorization was intended to make classics better - and if so how - "or do they", he asked, "hope to palm off some of the old stinkers by dipping them in 31 flavors?" But for a while they found an outlet on home video.

In 1986 Turner Entertainment announced plans colorize a number of black and white features in its newly acquired MGM library. Ted Turner famously relished the controversy and was a great promoter of the process. Several MGM, Warner and RKO films were colorized in the late eighties, including The Maltese Falcon (left) and Casablanca (below). Despite starting work on a colour version of Citizen Kane a clause from Orson Welles's contract with RKO was invoked to prevent its completion and release. One can only guess what this would have done to Gregg Toland's chiaroscuro photography and one hopes they would have drawn the line at colorizing the News on the March sequences.




As the process improved, attempts were made to make the colours more authentic - an interesting concept in this context - by trawling through studio records to find out what were the original specifications of the decor and costumes, forgetting that while in life the sets and props no doubt had colour to them, the whole film was designed, lit and photographed with a black and white end result in mind.
If the James Whale Frankenstein films were colorized would Boris Karloff's face be green as was his make up in order to photograph as white as possible? In any event films made in black and white in the thirties and forties do not look like Technicolor films of the same period printed in black and white: the subject, style, the average length of shot and therefore pacing are different, the result of contemporary commercial and technical considerations and not least because of the heavily prescriptive influence that Technicolor itself had on the use of the process.

In 1988 Congress established the National Film Registry, which was to a list of important American films, 25 each year, to be labelled with a disclaimer as to "authenticity" if sold in an altered form. The almost universal opinion was that this was toothless bureaucracy at work that had nothing to do with film preservation and an expense to the US taxpayer that would have been better directed to film preservation. The first list of 25 submitted in 1990 contained Dr Strangelove - a partly British made film.

Similar calls came from a forum of directors in the United Kingdom who suggested that there should be a category of inviolable classics that should never be colorized. Not much thought seems to be given to how this would work, perhaps too little was given to this exercise too: along with Hamlet and The Third Man, Rebecca as cited as one such classic. Rebecca (left), despite its British cast and director, is of course an American film. Colorization has always been less of an issue in the UK. Very little material has, to the writer's knowledge, ever been shown on British television. Only a few American television programmes have been shown, such as a Judy Garland special and episodes of the Steve McQueen western series Wanted: Dead or Alive, the latter looking like Cinecolor seen in a nightmare. Whether one objects as strongly, more strongly, or not at all to colorized black and white television programmes is a matter of opinion, but the arguments either way are surely the same as for film.



Colorized films, viewed on television, videotape or DVD with the colour turned down do not look the same as the original monochrome picture. The shading and contrast are not the same. Since the image is degraded, albeit only in the colorized form, it is not possible to argue that colorization is archivally sound. It may happen that in the process of colorization, genuine conservation or restoration of original sound and picture elements has occurred before the process of colorization is started; at least claims have been made to that effect.

[Right: the Legendary Lon Chaney in The Phantom of The Opera (Handschiegl colour)]



Turner Entertainment has otherwise shown an enlightened attitude, naturally a commercial one, to both preservation of films in their original state and, just as important, access to those films, and it was certainly for commercial reasons that it quietly dropped the colorization programme as the demand for colorized films started to dry up in the early nineties.

The debate is not over. The series The First World War in Colour was recently shown on British television - on Channel 5 - exploiting the idea of showing actuality footage in colour of subjects otherwise only ever seen in black and white, as in the series The Second World War in Colour, Britain at War in Colour and The British Empire in Colour. Each of these showed astonishing original colour footage. The First World War in Colour used cheaply colorized, battered prints and the result looked as bad as any colorization done in the 1980s. In some ways colorizing documentary footage seems even less justified than fictional subjects.

The weakness of the series was underlined by the producers resorting to the to-camera reminiscences of game old boys aged 105 who (for example) remembered sharing tins of bully beef in the trenches in 1917 and by hiring Kenneth Branagh to do the narration. (Interestingly a small number of military subjects were shot at about the same time in the three colour Gaumont Chronochrome process, though none of combat. Some of these were shown in a rival Channel 4 documentary series made at about the same time.)



Claims have made for recent improvements in the process with comparisons being made to the colour saturation and tonal range of three strip Technicolor or later colour processes. In the writer's view the achievements fall short of these standards. Colombia TriStar recently released on DVD some colorized Three Stooges shorts (left) and all the old issues resurfaced. The discs have both black and white and colour versions of the films to satisfy both preferences and the same claims for authenticity as to original colours of props have been made as in the 1980s.
Columbia TriStar made the not very interesting point that colorization makes old films more attractive to modern audiences, but also the much more interesting (though debatable) point that the process is no more vandalism than the conversion of an analogue soundtrack to 5.1 digital audio. Even George Lucas weighed in, asserting that the Three Stooges in colour took them out as their natural 1940s black and white context, though of course with their final Shemp replacement they made a number of colour films in the sixties, and George Lucas himself has not been uninvolved in the re-releasing of digitally enhanced films. The discussions can go on and on, though they always seem to focus on the rights of film makers rather than on film preservation.

As long as the technology and demand for colorized films exist it is not realistic to prevent their availability for those who want them. If there is to be a place for colorized films, it must be on video or DVD, available for sale or for rent, and clearly labelled as such. A colorized film should not be allowed to become the received version of a black and white film, not even if they are "the old stinkers dipped in 31 flavors". So like cropped pictures and panning and scanning, colorization has no place on broadcast television.

The technology itself of course has its uses. No criticism can reasonably be made of using similar techniques to colour grade films before their release, notably in the Lord of the Rings trilogy, or in much current television post-production. One day there may be admirers of colorization in the same way that people today (the writer among them) find much to like about artificially coloured films and old so-called natural colour processes like two strip Technicolor which were so often denigrated at the time, or at least when the novelty had worn off. There may even be a website devoted to colorized films. But if that time ever comes the same people will no doubt be exercising themselves about some other threat to film, or by then digital, heritage.

A well-known archival use of colorization, perhaps the only valid use, was in the Photoplay restoration of the bal masque sequence in the Lon Chaney version of Phantom of the Opera, where only part of the footage survived in Technicolor with the remainder in black and white. Using the surviving material as a template colorization restored colour to the monochrome footage. In another sequence the deep red of Lon Chaney's flowing cape was restored where the original (right) had been coloured frame by frame on black and white stock using the Handschiegl process, a process not unlike stencil colouring.



As to preservation of whole films, there have already been major digital, as opposed to optical, picture and sound restorations of films, the results being transferred back to film. Studios such as Disney and Universal have produced exemplary digital restorations in the last ten years, the costs being recouped by theatrical re-release or home sale. A very recent digital restoration is of Gone With the Wind (below left) by Warner Brothers, digital techniques being used to get back to the original imbibition-printed nitrate look. In 2004 the film was shown digitally at the National Film Theatre. National film archives, perhaps out of conservatism, have been slower to move away from traditional techniques, though this may change, especially as digital techniques can clean images and repair damaged sections of film in a way that conventional techniques cannot.

Such areas are fertile grounds for debate where currently there is no consensus, and in some ways they make all the old colorization arguments seem trivial. Digital restoration and even projection may become the norm, even though they could be said to be antithetical to the very idea of film, particularly projection, where the medium on which sound and image are carried and the process of exhibition has nothing to do with film in its usual meaning. Nevertheless, against this, digital projection promises greater distribution, and therefore greater appreciation, of classic films.



Perhaps the debate about digital enhancement should be widened to include undetectably manipulated images of actors of different generations being paired in the same film or more sinister, and only just round the corner, the Orwellian possibility of creating convincing fake documentary images. Imagine, for example, footage which appears to record a secret wartime rendezvous: Hitler and Churchill greeting each other warmly at Hitler's Berchtesgaden hideaway, perhaps with Goering patting Churchill on the back, Himmler looking on and Churchill glancing furtively to camera; the colour and everything else about the images being seamlessly manufactured to look like one of Eva Braun's Agfacolor home movies.

All arguments return to the nature and degree of any change made to original sound and image. Perhaps we should say that all restoration must bring us nearer to the original film (the look, the sound, and the whole experience of watching it) but not beyond it. But there could be special cases where we should add intention to the above list: there would, for instance, seem to be justification for using digital techniques to cure the bedevilled soundtrack of Chimes at Midnight, where, but for economic and technical hardships, the dialogue would all have been properly recorded and synchronised.

But from Orson Welles and Orwell let us return to our subject and leave the last word to Hal Roach, every inch a producer but one who gave considerable artistic freedom to his contractees. In 1992 at the age of 99 he travelled to Britain to publicise the UK release of the colorized Way Out West (right). Roach's studio of course had produced the film and the re-release was then being marketed by Hal Roach Studios in the Colorization Inc process.



Holding court at the Park Lane Hilton (unforgettably telling people "I always stay here…. my girlfriend back home is Louise Hilton. Her old man did these places out you know. I feel a kinda loyalty" and handing out pocketfuls of propelling pencils embossed "Compliments of Hal Roach - 100th Birthday") he was asked what he thought about the repackaged classic. His diplomatic response was as characteristic and it was wise. His words were those who of a businessman who may have eschewed pretensions to art but certainly understood his craft: "The picture looks good. It looks professional. Apparently people like color these days. I know one thing: the movie cannot be any funnier in color."

No funnier. No better. We ought to conclude that all audiences, casual viewers as well as the many hues of film enthusiast should strive for and learn to appreciate films in their original form.


©Richard Price 2004
Old 10-19-08, 06:02 PM
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1. Colorized movies are not made with the intention of becoming a substitute for the B&W originals.
2. Colorized movies are not created with the intention of taking over the planet or subverting democracies around the world.
3. Appreciation of colorized movies is a matter of personal taste.
4. Personal tastes cannot be dictated. It they could, there wouldn't be any slasher movie threads in DVDTalk forums and opera companies wouldn't have to struggle to make ends meet.
5. Barack Obama is not a Muslim.
6. Barack Obama is not an Arab.
7. Barack Obama is not a terrorist.
8. Joe the Plumber is not a plumber and his name ain't Joe.
9. The earth is round, it revolves around the sun and is older than 6,000 years.
10. 2 + 2 = 4.
Old 10-19-08, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by The Valeyard
Speaking of cut and paste:
I guess the lesson to be learned here is your inability to stay on topic. Why not just start your own thread and you can debate it all you want.
Old 10-19-08, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by bsmith
I guess the lesson to be learned here is your inability to stay on topic. Why not just start your own thread and you can debate it all you want.
Because that would be hard. It would involve doing more than just uttering catty remarks and quoting other people's ideas.
Old 10-19-08, 07:16 PM
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I think the problem with colorization also has to do with a lot of films NEEDED B&W to remain effective.

Orson Welles is a great example. Along with his cinematographers, he always exploited the virtues of shooting in B&W. Besides the obvious Citizen Kane... The Trial, Touch of Evil, Othello, and Macbeth. Complete mastery of all that B&W has to offer.

The Haunting (1963) and Psycho would not be scary at all in color. In fact, the only genuinely scary color film I've seen is The Shining.

A Hard Day's Night would lose its immediacy and energy in color.

Raging Bull needs no explaination on why B&W was appropriate.

Even in recent years, we're still getting B&W films. George Clooney's masterpiece Good Night and Good Luck is a wonderful display of B&W photography, even though it was shot in color. The opening scene of Casino Royale was shot in true B&W. Frank Darabont offers The Mist on DVD and BluRay in a B&W version, which he intended.

And director Guy Maddin could care less about shooting in color... or with sound... or even with 35mm.

Audiences in the 1930s-1950s really could care less about EVERY movie being in color. It was expected for a big epic or higher budget film, but generally not for horror or comedy. It's why Mickey Mouse didn't appear in color for three years after Disney started producing shorts in Technicolor. The color brought in audiences for the Silly Symphonies, but Mickey Mouse brought in audiences regardless.

Color is magnificent and so many films would have lost their impact had they not been shot in color. Color used to be something special, now it's usually just taken for granted. Not every film has such attention given to the visuals like on No Country for Old Men, There Will Be Blood, The Darjeeling Limited, and The Dark Knight. The Borat movie is still a hilarious film, but it wouldn't change anything at all had it been in B&W or color. It didn't matter.

It's also why I think it's sad that Panavision is slowly being phased out in favor of inferior quality Super-35. This is why The Dark Knight is so special... so much attention to the visual quality. Shot in Panavision and true IMAX. Even to the point of making sure that IMAX prints had IMAX shots contact printed from the negative for optimal quality.

Film is an art. Most is bad art, but it's still art. Art is to be left alone as-is. Maybe a B-western with John Wayne doesn't matter all that much, but it would be horrible if Legend Films colorized The Trial or The Stranger thanks to their public domain status. I can imagine them releasing a double-feature with Welles' name proudly shown on the front.
Old 10-19-08, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bsmith
Now can we get back on topic. If you want to discuss the philosphical merits of colorization then start a new thread. It was never the intent of this thread.
The topic of the thread is "Colorized Films on DVD" and included a sarcastic criticism of Criterion for not putting the full colorized version on their new release. I am definitely going to come in here and defend their decision and put forth the reasons I think it was a correct one. What about my post wasn't on the topic of "Colorized Films on DVD"? If you feel I am posting inappropriate content then use the report to moderator button that is what it is there for. However, I'm not going to be talked down to because I don't agree with your viewpoint.
Old 10-19-08, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by darkside
The topic of the thread is "Colorized Films on DVD" and included a sarcastic criticism of Criterion for not putting the full colorized version on their new release. I am definitely going to come in here and defend their decision and put forth the reasons I think it was a correct one. What about my post wasn't on the topic of "Colorized Films on DVD"? If you feel I am posting inappropriate content then use the report to moderator button that is what it is there for. However, I'm not going to be talked down to because I don't agree with your viewpoint.
Darkside, relax. Nobody is attacking you. You asked a question and you got an answer from Barry Sandrew himself. Whether you liked the answer or not is your own affair. Even if I wanted to report any of the negative off-topic posts, there is no rule in DVDTalk against not being on topic, only a vague rule about threadcraps, which most of the posters here have been guilty of. There is no rule either about endlessly repeating or paraphrasing or reformulating or quoting or cutting and pasting what are essentially platitudes (please look up the definition of that word) in order to assuage you sense of self-righteousness. You can go on doing that until your fingers are numb.

This thread will still be here anytime someone has new information to convey about existing or forthcoming colorized films or an intelligent opinion to express about existing colorized films they have actually seen.

BTW, I see Criterion's inclusion of a clip of the colorized version of Fanfan la Tulipe (the version that is responsible for the film surviving into the XXIst century and finding a new public) in its presentation as a very positive development. It shows that they are not hiding their head in the sand and that they are recognizing this cultural phenomenon as a force to be reckoned with in the restoration, preservation and propagation of France's cinematic heritage - which still needs a lot of help. After all, the very same thing happened a few years back with Clouzot's Le Salaire de la Peur (The Wages of Fear) and they totally missed the boat on that one - although they were not too proud to publish a restoration of that film that had been paid for by TCM's colorization of the film for European TV.

Last edited by baracine; 10-20-08 at 06:51 AM.
Old 10-19-08, 10:26 PM
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Since when has TCM paid for colorizing movies?
Old 10-19-08, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by darkside
The topic of the thread is "Colorized Films on DVD" and included a sarcastic criticism of Criterion for not putting the full colorized version on their new release. I am definitely going to come in here and defend their decision and put forth the reasons I think it was a correct one. What about my post wasn't on the topic of "Colorized Films on DVD"? If you feel I am posting inappropriate content then use the report to moderator button that is what it is there for. However, I'm not going to be talked down to because I don't agree with your viewpoint.
It was never my intent to talk down to you. Because the Criterion release was brought up in discussion, it was absolutely appropriate to the topic at hand. However, I also read into your post an overall issue with the very nature of colorization and your issues with it use at all. There have been several posts attacking colorization as a technique period. Those are the posts that seemed inappropriate for this thread, IMO. Those are what I was really intending to disuade. It was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction on my part based on several post in this thread. In retrospect, I should have just done a general reply instead of quoting your response.

There are subjects that by their very nature become heated discussions to the point that the thread has to be shut down due to the low level the content of post inevitable sink. OAR or modified is another that comes to mind. This thread appeared to me to be geared towards discussing the quality of films colorized and what new films had been colorized, not on the merits of whether films should be colorized. In other words, that to add value you would at least have some interest in the colorization process to be on topic. Just my opinion of course.

Last edited by bsmith; 10-19-08 at 11:17 PM.
Old 10-19-08, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by baracine
Because that would be hard. It would involve doing more than just uttering catty remarks and quoting other people's ideas.
Wow. If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black...
Old 10-19-08, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by PatrickMcCart
I think the problem with colorization also has to do with a lot of films NEEDED B&W to remain effective.
I agree completely. I doubt anyone would advocate all b/w films be colorized or that they even would have been effective if originally shot in color. Some films play out better in b/w, whether because b/w by its very nature provides the needed mood or because of knowing it would be in b/w they created the shots in a particular way to produce the indended results. I just finished watching "Touch of Evil" as well as "Double Indemnity" and "Sorry, Wrong Number". Each was very effective as b/w.

However, I also can't help but think what if... "Gone with the Wind", "Wizard of Oz", or "Robin Hood" had been done in b/w. Knowing how they excelled in color would I have had issues with them being colorized after the fact. My inclination is to say no. I take it all on a film by film basis.
Old 10-20-08, 12:28 AM
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I do think its a bit unfortunate that this thread has to be continually drawn into the debate. No one's mind is going to be changed by this debate here and now so why bother?

I know all the talking points on both sides...as do we all. There is truly nothing else to be added to this topic.

I'm not threatened by colorization or its implications. Since the thread was started with the intention of giving folks who are interested a place to discuss this process and NOT the debate, its kind of useless trotting it all out.
Old 10-20-08, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by PatrickMcCart
Since when has TCM paid for colorizing movies?
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/h6vk4OxDUus&hl=fr&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/h6vk4OxDUus&hl=fr&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

TMC, Turner Movie Classics, Turner's international satellite movie channel, doesn't own the rights or distribution rights to Le Salaire de la Peur. It made a deal with filmmaker Claire Clouzot, H.G. Clouzot's great-niece and grand-daughter of film critic Henri Clouzot, to colorize the film according to her specifications and personal collection of on-set color photographs in exchange for restoring the B&W version and showing the colorized version on its European channels and PAL video.

This allowed, in turn, Criterion to show for the first time in America scenes that had been cut from the film for U.S. distribution in 1954, scenes that denounced crooked U.S. business interests in Latin America. The Criterion Collection (B&W) laserdisc restored the film to its uncut version with 21 minutes of footage removed from other versions of the film.

I can just imagine this late-night conversation between Jane Fonda and hubby Ted Turner circa 1991: "Ted dear, as long as you're paying good money to restore and colorize those awful B-movies, why not do something politically useful for a change?"

Last edited by baracine; 10-20-08 at 08:26 AM.
Old 10-20-08, 09:08 AM
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About Fanfan la Tulipe... I would go so far as to say that Criterion would not even have heard of this film - and neither would most of you - if it hadn't been for its inept and unwitty 2002 remake, but mostly for its renaissance as a color film on European TV and in the video stores. It also wouldn't have been able to present a restored B&W copy if it hadn't been for the restoration financed by the colorization process.

As a native Quebecker, I saw this film at a very young age starting in the late fifties on the French Radio-Canada TV network and during innumerable Gérard Philipe festivals over the years, Gérard Philipe having the approximate status of James Dean mixed with Laurence Olivier and Leonardo di Caprio in French-speaking countries. As TV resolutely stayed in B&W until the mid-60's in Canada, my childhood friends and I naturally grew up thinking it was a magnificent color production because of its comedic aspects and swashbuckling theme. I was actually disappointed to find out it was in black and white. We certainly relived every scene of the film in color in our imaginations.







From a 2006 Film Forum article on the restoration and its New York showing:

Christian-Jaque’s stylish swashbuckler/romance/sex comedy won him the Best Director Award at Cannes and showcased the romantic charm and juvenile high spirits (“I’ve always been young for my age”) that would make Gérard Philipe, already a heartthrob of French stage and screen, among the most beloved of international stars — before attaining immortality by dying young. His Fanfan — imagine Douglas Fairbanks (Sr. and Jr.) and Errol Flynn rolled into one by Voltaire — is so ingenuous and insouciant that he blithely takes in stride a duel with hay rakes and one across a jailhouse roof, an exploding powder magazine, his own hanging, a desperate horseback-and-coach chase, and Miss Lollobrigida’s impressive cleavage. But eventually he’s also got to win that darn Seven Years’ War — practically singlehandedly — and prevent His Horny Highness (Marcel Herrand, the dandified assassin of Carné’s Children of Paradise) from getting into Miss Lollobrigida’s bodice. Both a “Louis XV Western” (Pauline Kael) and, via the anti-militaristic japes of dialogue writer Henri Jeanson (Pépé Le Moko), a biting satire of la gloire, Fanfan’s outstanding supporting cast includes Olivier Hussenot as Philipe’s bumpkinish sidekick and Noël Roquevert, France’s favorite cross-eyed snake, as his nemesis in war and love, along with the tight-bloused Lollobrigida in the role that launched her as an international sex icon. A mega-classic in France and abroad (especially in the USSR and Japan!) and an exemplar of the cinéma de qualité that would soon be submerged by the New Wave, Fanfan la Tulipe has been virtually unseen in this country since the 1950s, and has never been on VHS or DVD. This new 35mm print features flavorsome new subtitles by Lenny Borger.
http://www.filmforum.org/films/fanfan.html


Last edited by baracine; 10-20-08 at 10:10 AM.
Old 10-20-08, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by baracine
Darkside, relax. Nobody is attacking you.

There is no rule either about endlessly repeating or paraphrasing or reformulating or quoting or cutting and pasting what are essentially platitudes (please look up the definition of that word) in order to assuage you sense of self-righteousness.
You don't see the issue here? I know the definition of the word you used. I'm not stupid because I don't agree with you. Again, when people in this thread don't agree with the colorization zealots the only response is to talk down to and insult them. I'm sorry I don't agree with your viewpoint, but talking to me like this is not acceptable. I'm not dumber than you because I can't appreciate classic films unless they are in color. The fact you can call anyone self righteous is hilarious. Do you read your posts?
Old 10-20-08, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by darkside
You don't see the issue here? I know the definition of the word you used. I'm not stupid because I don't agree with you. Again, when people in this thread don't agree with the colorization zealots the only response is to talk down to and insult them. I'm sorry I don't agree with your viewpoint, but talking to me like this is not acceptable. I'm not dumber than you because I can't appreciate classic films unless they are in color. The fact you can call anyone self righteous is hilarious. Do you read your posts?

Darkside, what do you want me to say? You take everything said here as personal attacks against you when I, for one, always speak in general terms. I found out a long time ago that you can't make personal attacks against persons you don't really know.

What I do know is that you refuse to acknowledge that the purpose of this thread is to discuss new developments in the field of colorization and you insist on diverting it to a condemnation of the process itself as something wrong, evil or sinful for reasons that are already well known to everybody concerned.

One of your particular reasons is that colorization is wrong because it aims to dislodge or replace the original B&W film, or possibly eliminate it completely from the historical record. This is clearly not the case as at least two of the French B&W classic films presently on the Criterion label wouldn't be there without a restoration made possible by the commercial benefits of colorization.

You feel personal resentment and/or contempt against individuals who "cannot appreciate a classic film unless it is colorized". You are free to express hatred and contempt against whom you like. I just wish you wouldn't do it here.

I am glad we both agree on what a platitude is. One definition is that it is any statement that shouldn't be made because it doesn't bring anything to a conversation, whether it is demonstrably wrong or simply self-evident, or that has been made useless by mindless repetition.
Old 10-20-08, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by The Valeyard
Wow. If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black...
Sorry, but in this thread the kettle is cobalt blue.
Old 10-20-08, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by darkside
Again, when people in this thread don't agree with the colorization zealots the only response is to talk down to and insult them. I'm sorry I don't agree with your viewpoint, but talking to me like this is not acceptable. I'm not dumber than you because I can't appreciate classic films unless they are in color. The fact you can call anyone self righteous is hilarious. Do you read your posts?
Darkside,

You are complaining about being talked down to and insulted by colorization zealots. If you review the thread you will see that it all started with a simple discussion about what is new in colorization that was attacked by, as you might like to call them b/w zealots.

For example:

We believe in colorizing stuff here in the states too, we call them coloring books. They start out black and white and children can add any colors they want to them.
Maybe the PAL editions decided to bastardize the film even more by giving it a false aspect ratio? You know. To go along with it's false (colorized) presentation. If you're gonna shit on a film, might as well shit all over it in every regard.
I don't have a problem with colorization existing, but it's still a useless process other than to please idiots who can't stand B&W. Besides, there's no such thing as a black and white movie. All movies are in color, just some have a wider spectrum than others.
It's a perpetual source of merriment to me how terrified some people are of watching a black & white movie.
As you can see the insults started from the otherside. If it appeared as if you got caught up in it, it might be because of a continuous attempt to NOT debate the merits of colorization, which has been debated many times in the past. But to instead have a discussion on what's new in it's development.

I am far from a colorization zealot. I have a total of two colorized films in my collection of around 800 DVD's. My collection also consists of films from the 1920's through to the present, so I have a strong appreciation for b/w films.
Old 10-20-08, 04:01 PM
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And my personal favourite...

But that still allows for the mockery of people who buy them.
Old 10-20-08, 04:43 PM
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Do you have a screen capture to we get a idea of how bad is that??

Originally Posted by Carcosa
I remember how disappointed I was in Legend's release of SCROOGE....surely a better prints exists than the truncated, worn one utilized? The previous Image release was the full length film, and seemed to suffer from a poor PAL conversion possibly....

Barry, can you weigh in on this?
Old 10-20-08, 04:45 PM
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I would like to see a fine Greta Garbo film colorized in a very artistic way.




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