Re: Disappointing Criterions
 

Well that is their job, isn't it? And frankly, a great deal of the films in their collection have withstood the tests of time and are masterpieces of one genre or another. I suspect you just can't handle the

Show me one non-Criterion company that doesn't gush in some way on the sleeves of their DVDs, for movies ranging from masterpieces to mediocre. At least Criterion assumes it's viewers have intellect, possible educations and even a willingness to learn, unlike most mainstream studios that plaster the most derivative, cringe-inducing hyperbole ("This hot action comedy is guaranteed to keep you on the edge of your seat!"**) and critic quotes ("Will keep you on the edge of your seat with its adrenaline-pumped action!"**) all over the packaging. Yeah, that's a LOT better than what Criterion does, especially since they all do it. Criterion copywriters could only sound high-minded to those who don't understand what all the fuss is about over the titles in the collection, in other words, those who don't "get" half the stuff they see and therefore assume there's nothing to be "got" in the first place. :D

No, they don't. Read enough Criterion sleeves, and you should know better than that.

There's one aspect of this Japanese hangup of Brizz's, however, that I think merits attention, though it's clearly not his/her point whatsoever. I do think Criterion has too many Japanese films IN RELATION TO OTHER ASIAN CINEMAS. Period. I have no problem whatsoever with their Japanese segment, and I've done enough reading to know that all of it is worthy of the praise and consideration they give it, but I do wish there were more films represented from Korea, Hong Kong and Mainland China, and, to a lesser extent, Vietnam. At the same time, though, the scholarship of those industries has always lagged behind that of Japanese cinema, often logically so, whether we like it or not.


Again, this is a silly (and entirely subjective) argument, clearly rooted in a sense of not belonging to "the club" (which doesn't really exist), and one that holds no water as soon as you read the sleeve copy dreamed up by every other studio and distributor on the marketplace.

In the end, it's about marketing and branding. And Criterion does it with more dignity and respect than almost anyone else, and largely because they're right. It's far more offensive to see Warners or Anchor Bay or Fox or you-name-it rehashing the same breathless praise and pull-quotes from critics of dubious provenance on some of the most god-awful direct-to-video slop. To think that anyone could be so put off by Criterion after seeing all the pap copy lining the shelves of a local blockbuster just makes me sad.


** These quotes were pulled from an actual DVD I just grabbed from the shelf. It's not one of mine, but it's hardly the masterpiece of action and suspense that Columbia Tri-Star would have me believe it is. Funny that . . .

Re: Disappointing Criterions
 

They also have yet to release a single animated film, and have only a couple of silent and Western titles in the collection.

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Pierrot le Fou is the one Godard I think I might like that I intend on seeing at some point...i've seen most of his criterion pictures, but if there's anything I will enjoy Pierrot le Fou seems to be it from what I've read about it...we'll see.

And BrianT - i don't give a shit about being in whatever club you think i'm jealous of...i'm 39, have a Ph.D., and thus have endured far more than many peoples' share of pretentiousness, having an academic career and all - i'm surrounded by it!! ;) My comments are just that...personal opinion on a message board, and i'm clearly not alone in thinking that they tend to go overboard in their hyping of some of their more mediocre releases. But again, those that fall into this category are in the minority, and as I said originally i've been able to at the very least appreciate most everything I've seen...and indeed own 50+ CC discs with at least that many others on my wishlist. they have introduced me to plenty i would have otherwise never seen, and I'm as big a fan as the company as anyone. I fully understand that what's mediocre to me may be awesome to someone else...and vice versa. Equinox is a great example - many purists feel it is a pox on the holy spine numbers...I think it is a great little landmark piece of cinema and it's high on my wishlist to own (i've seen it, but haven't bought it yet)....yet i've read plenty of disparaging comments about how 'unworthy' it is to be in the collection. Frankly, I have very little tolerance for that kind of righteousness.

BUT, this thread was about what we didn't like...and what i've been disappointed with are Godard/French New Wave and their over-reliance/hyping of Japanese cinema, despite having enjoyed many in the latter category. I wish it were a bit more balanced (and agree there should be more from Korea, etc) That's not exactly a unique opinion....westerns, for instance, are pathetically absent, despite their being a number of important films remaining unreleased in that category.

Re: Disappointing Criterions
 

It isn't as if Criterion is consciously choosing to exclude films of Africa or the Middle East, or silent films, or Westerns. The under-representation of certain regions or genres has much more to do with rights and availability issues than anything else (something you mentioned in an earlier post). Not that it's a bad thing, but Criterion's close relationship with Janus Films is a significant limiting factor on the films they do ultimately release.

Also, I don't understand why you think there's an "over-reliance/hyping of Japanese cinema" at Criterion. A significant percentage of the Criterion Collection may be Japanese films, but I don't see that as "over-relying" on it, especially when considering that Japanese cinema is one of the three pillars of film alongside French and American.

In fact, Criterion has released far more French films than Japanese, so why aren't they "over-relying" on French films instead?

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I think it may just seem like that cuz of Kurosawa films. He has probably the most prominent name in their collection.

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You sure gave enough of a shit to write an unprovoked post slagging them in a thread that really has nothing to do with them. Like here:

It just seemed out of place to me. And grossly presumptuous for someone of what I now know (or assume) to be your academic standing. :(

That makes two of us. Same age, even. And all.



Personal opinion on the one hand. Broad generalization on the other (see above). The implication I get from this is that I, or people like me, might somehow believe that majorities are automatically correct, which I don't. I simply don't believe that anyone can hold up Criterion as worse than any other studio when it comes to promoting the value of their products, especially when their products are fine examples of world cinema (regardless of various sub-categories in which they are known to come up wanting for releases). And Criterion has fewer (well, none in my eyes, but you knew that) mediocre films in their collection than any other label. Just because a film is obtuse and alienates certain viewers, or isn't of a high technical standard, that doesn't mean it has no place in the collection. Sometimes, the value goes beyond what the filmmakers give us into the realm of what we take away from it, or how, or why. I think Criterion does a good job of sourcing pictures that work on those levels.



I think EQUINOX was a near-perfect selection for the Criterion Collection. Same goes for CARNIVAL OF SOULS, THE BLOB, the Richard and Alex Gordon films in the MONSTERS AND MADMEN box and all the other "B-movies" they've included. I'm sure everyone could bandy about the names of similar such movies that might be equally worthy of inclusion, or arguably more worthy, but these particular films and their CC kin, for whatever flaws people have found in them over the years prior to their inclusion in the collection, still stand as textbook examples of their genres. It's not all about being "masterpieces" in the Criterion Collection, nor does the sleeve copy on every single release come off like that. It's often just as much about being an ideal representative of a greater genre, time period, ideology, whatever.

I bought a Criterion last year called SWEET MOVIE. Watched it cold, mostly understood it, but still wasn't fond of it, but thanks to the thought provoking extras on the disc and in the booklet, I nonetheless came away thoroughly convinced of it's importance to its director, its time period, its country of origin, and cinema in general. I still traded it off, but like all the Criterions I've kept or traded or sold, I'd highly recommend it. Not because I'm some high-minded snob who "got it"--that took work, actually--but because it IS an important film on so many levels, just not one that I'd personally revisit. There are many in the collection like that.



I guess we just see a similar "problem" (in quotes because I don't believe it is one) from different perspectives. I don't see it as overhyping at all when a company's "Asian quotient" is largely represented by films from Japan only--if that's all they have at the moment, that's what they're going to be known for. Big deal. Instead, I see it as an imbalance, and that's something I have bitched about both in a couple of forums including this one (can't remember the thread) and in print in a daily newspaper column. I think, no, I know, that Hong Kong cinema gets the shaft when it comes to its international reputation and it's "importance" to international film language, so naturally I feel Criterion would be an ideal label to rectify that, beyond the occasional Wong Kar-wai movie. Korean cinema has generally been better represented and studied internationally, though certainly not by Criterion. :(


Can't disagree there. ;)

Re: Disappointing Criterions
 

Bingo!

We can moan about what's not in the collection until the 12th of never, but what's there is there for a definite reason.


They must be, by Brizz's standards. :confused:

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if we are able to get criterion to sponsor it on this site. that would rule :D

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I haven't been able to finish both 'Jubilee' and 'The Tin Drum'. I've attempted 'The Tin Drum' on three separate occasions just KNOWING I'll love the hell out of it, but I fall asleep every time. At least I can say it's a hypnotic film - maybe I'll take another stab at it soon.

As far as Criterions I was flat-out disappointed with and/or were of large mediocrity:

Man Bites Dog - I almost want to say its sole intent was to achieve cult-classicism

The Ice Storm - I saw very little importance with this one.

Cries and Whispers - striking visuals and color symbolism, compelling story, but excruciating pacing and gut-wrenching sound focus with a poor support cast I thought. My least favorite Bergman experience.

If... - one dull moment after another, with an ending that should've been 10 times more powerful.

Ivan's Childhood - never have I seen a film with such brilliant cinematography have such little impact with tedious visual story-telling.

Equinox - I guess it takes a certain horror/fantasy film fan to truly appreciate this one.

The Life Aquatic - fun and adventurous; but really, I do wonder sometimes how many dicks Wes Anderson has sucked to get his entire catalogue on the Criterion front.

Walker - even though I'm fully aware of Alex Cox's almost slap-sticky play on politics and society, I just couldn't absorb this one with satisfaction.

The Man Who Fell To Earth - I really hope I'm not the only one who didn't understand this feature, nor do I really want to attempt to comprehend any of it. Sad, because Roeg is one of my favorite directors.

La Commare Secca - acceptable as student film status maybe, but this monotonous story-telling feature came off as super pretentious to me.

Salo - more significant as a piece of cinematic history, but I don't feel this had to abherrently stretch 3+ hours.

Armageddon - wtf

The Rock - wtf x2

Re: Disappointing Criterions
 

This thread makes me laugh.

By the title, I assumed it was about Criterion discs that weren't up to snuff, with either poor transfers or extras.

But instead, people seem to be discussing the movies, as if Criterion made them. Which makes no sense to me.

It would make more sense to have a thread called "Disappointing Warner Bros." since WB actually makes the movies they put out.

Re: Disappointing Criterions
 

Well said. Having only discovered this thread when it was revived recently, I skimmed through it expecting just what you mentioned, comments about transfers or extras, which are legitimate issues with some titles in the collection. Perhaps the thread title was too vague? There are a handful of Criterion discs that I wish had more supplements to aid in the appreciation of the films, but on the whole, it's a small list.



Worse, the discussion turned to labeling the kinds of people who actually enjoy and/or understand certain movies. Ouch. :( Maybe there should be a new thread called "Disappointing Criterion Viewers." ;)

Re: Disappointing Criterions
 

Can't we all just get along? I find the sniping back and forth ridiculous, particularly given this is one thread in a forum where one could expect to share opinions with people who enjoy good movies without being labeled "a film snob."

How many of us posting here are able to share our passion for Ozu or Fellini or Renoir with our friends and family? Heck, how many of us have friends and family who have even heard of the Criterion label?

Peace, y'all.

That said, I must amend my earlier post because I found the Criterion release of Danton lacking in both extras and film transfer. The movie itself is terrific, but for viewers who are unfamiliar with the personae of the French Revolution, a documentary on the era to provide historical context or a glossary of the characters would prove useful.

Re: Disappointing Criterions
 

All I can say is that I want ALL Kurosawa films with the It Is Wonderful to Create features. Those are really really informative.

Re: Disappointing Criterions
 

rotflrotflrotfl

Re: Disappointing Criterions
 

I think the big difference is Criterion is a company who's reputation is built upon being THE dvd company for releasing classic, important, masterpieces of cinema. Thus, many have unrealistic expectations that everything will be "great" in some way. So, given that every film is inherently loaded with that kind of expectation, the films themselves are subject to disappointing viewers in a way any other company's aren't.

And to the French over representation - yes, I think there are too many damned french movies in the CC too - but I wouldn't remove a single one...or any other. I understand it's there for a reason, even If I don't care for it. Not all the films in the Criterion Collection have to be GOOD. They can have some kind of importance, either to the film industry or to world culture. I just wish there were more UK and US films for one, but understand that's a matter of what rights are available, so international cinema will necessarily be a large part of the collection. It is encouraging that they seem to be cultivating better relationships with US companies though...so perhaps we can get the same loving treatment of films by folks by directors like Anthony Mann that they deserve.

So yes, i've been disappointed in my inability to appreciate the New Wave stuff, particularly Godard, and wondered for a while if there was something wrong with me...then discovered that i'm not alone by FAR in feeling that way, and realized that it's really something that's not meant to be appreciated by the majority, and I quit caring and smile at the people who go gaga over the Godard's seemingly monthly additions to the collection as I wistfully wish for other fare. but that's just me. If you have the time and energy to devote multiple viewings to impenetrable pieces of cinema, then bravo...I guess I don't care THAT much to give them that...there's too many others I have yet to see that may reveal themselves to be pure revelation.

I was perhaps a bit strong in my initial characterization of Godard fans as elitists...but I don't think anyone would disagree with the sentiment...there is that small segment of filmdom that worships him and the New Wave and their writing about it seems as difficult to understand as the movies themselves...which to me suggests they didn't "get" it anymore than anyone else, but get off on pretending they did. as deltasig4 would say...that's a FACT. :)

Re: Disappointing Criterions
 

I think some of the comments here are accurate. Most seem to think Criterion is the upper echelon of cinema and any one who doesn't follow be damned.

Personally, I love the collection. It has given me a small glimpse of foreign cinema I wouldn't have known about other wise. Are they lacking in some areas (westerns was a good example)? Sure, but show me a studio who isn't.

With the collection approaching 500 titles now I think they have done an incredible job of giving the people an amazing collection of unique films from around the world. But like many other things, you can't please everyone. If you don't like it, you don't like. That doesn't mean you can go on a tirade about how Goddard fans are X or Y.

With all that being said, do I agree with some of the choice Criterion has made? No, but The Rock was still an awesome DVD and a great popcorn flick.

And finally, my fingers are crossed for Blu-Ray editions of Tokyo Drifter and Branded to Kill. I love that stuff!

Re: Disappointing Criterions
 

That reason is because most of those French films (along with many of their Japanese releases) are Janus films which is basically the theatrical arm of Criterion.

Re: Disappointing Criterions
 

I should point out that there are many films in the Criterion Collection that I didn't find overly memorable on an entirely personal level, but the additional features, the booklet, and further readings online and of my own books on film helped me to understand the significance of what I'd seen, maybe even helped me to "get it". I certainly don't think I had some special knack for keeping my expectations level when reading a DVD sleeve, Criterion or otherwise, but maybe I do. As I said before, every DVD company besides Criterion breathlessly praises their products on their DVD sleeves, using a combination of legitimate/overbaked hyperbole and suspect/genuine quotes from real/wannabe critics. Every. Company. They pander. They copy-write to the lowest-common denominator. And that doesn't create expectations? Please. Criterion takes a classier, scholarly route--the very thing that any serious film buff should appreciate--so I guess the inevitable cries of high-minded snobbery from certain quarters should be expected. One simple bit of advice if you can't handle Criterion's film-school-in-an-amaray approach to pimping their stock: approach everything with caution. Expect nothing one way or the other.



At last! We agree. :lol:



. . . and those that love his stuff, are not alone, by far, in feeling that love (and I'm not one of them, believe it or not; though I don't find his films that impenetrable with a little extra effort and NO multiple viewings). There's no shame in not "getting" someone like Godard or any other filmmaker so vaunted by the Criterion Collection; there should be at least a little shame associated with repeatedly condescending to virtually anyone that does get his work--even partially--as if they're wasting their precious time or, worse, engaging in just so much pretending with the sole purpose of appearing smarter than other people. They just couldn't be serious about it; of course not.

Just to be clear, I don't like it any better when "film snobs"--both real or perceived--snivel or hurl presumptuous insults at those who don't "get" certain kinds of movies. This does work both ways, sadly, and it kills thoughtful debate, which largely dominated this thread until recently. The appreciation of Criterion films, in particular, is often about subjectivity, and it pains me to see either side (those who "get it" or those who don't) making smarmy, unqualified assumptions about the other, even as I've long wondered, how it can irk people that cinema, like virtually every other art form (and ideology for that matter),can produce works of a certain ambiguity that are designed to elicit multiple, personal interpretations. If the picture doesn't make literal sense, it must be some kind of con? That makes no sense.



Well, you probably knew I would ;) , and I'm not particularly fond of the man's work, as I've stated. At the same time, I'm simply unable to blithely dismiss his importance to his craft and his singular voice with just one wave of the hand. He does have his obsequious worshippers--they all do--but you're right, they're a small segment of an already (comparatively) small circle of film aficionados, and thus hardly enough to raise one's ire. There are more people devoted to scholarly study and thoughtful criticism of his works than there are people lined up to catch and praise every blast of artistic gas that he passes. Seriously. But too often the latter are the ones who most often become representative of everyone who appreciates a particularly obtuse form of cinema.

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A disappointing Criterion for me would be KWAIDAN.

The transfer is poor compared to other discs available, specifically MASTERS of CINEMA's marvelous release which is just beautiful. and longer by 23 minutes. Great booklet too, not to mention its NTSC even though its a Region 2 release. Go figure.

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^True. True.
Kwaidan deserves so much better....


Also kinda OT but isnt it that day of the month when new titles are announced. Whats the deal?

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funny that I have never noticed this thread and when I did finally see the thread title, I instantly thought...Jubilee. I hated that movie, just really dated, bad, ugly, boring junk.

glad I'm not the only one.
There have been many many releases that were disappointing in regards to extras but only a few that were not up to snuff in regards to the film itself.
Many of the earlier titles deserve more extras. CC have been fairly good about going back and updating the ones that have better elements out there now, and while doing that adding features.
They need to KEEP doing that though.
Andrei Rublev is one that needs updating, along with Walkabout and much much more.

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Usually I am that certain fan, but not this time. I think a large part of Equinox's consideration was for the resumes that the filmmakers would go on to achieve.
:lol: Oh, that's one of the most agreeable things I've read in ages.
Yeah, I was disappointed. I would love to see Repo Man on Criterion though.
This DVD is actually useful in a "know thy enemy" sort of way, particularly the audio commentary.

Re: Disappointing Criterions
 

This was listed as one of the titles in their initial Blu-ray press release, so hopefully it'll be sooner rather than later.

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Walker, in my opinion is a terrible, pretentious piece of crap. However, it does star Ed Harris, and so falls under the Ed Harris Corollary to the Gene Hackman Rule (which also applies to Morgan Freeman): "No movie with Ed Harris in it is a complete waste of time."

The DVD is terrific, however, with Alex Cox's commentary and a couple of docs.

Mona Lisa is a huge disappointment, it's an early Criterion, but it's movie-only with not very good picture and sound.

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Ive been thinking about getting the following. Can someone tell me if they're worth the price.

F For Fake
Do the Right Thing
In the Realm of the Senses
Simon of The Desert

Re: Disappointing Criterions
 

an actual hidef bluray release ;)

they're probably doing the numbers of the Barnes and Noble 50% sale, I'd love to know what titles are being the most popular, what's selling out, etc.

Re: Disappointing Criterions
 

I can vouch for Simon of the Desert. Worth every penny since it also contains the hour long documentary 'A Mexican Buñuel'. Can be had for under $13 with the DD 25% off sale.

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How are Yojimbo/Sanjuro? Thinking about picking up the set with both of them in it.

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Do the Right Thing is a good release but a new 2-disc non-Criterion set was released that has just about everything on it. I don't know anything about Simon of the Desert but I've seen it in store for $24.99 and using the B&N 50% Criterion sale brings it down to $12.50 unless you have a membership which drops it even further. Same for Do the Right Thing, it might be about the same price as the non-Criterion release using the B&N sale.

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F FOR FAKE is a clever, very satisfying piece with an intriguing production history (which it doesn't hurt to read a little bit about first, if possible), and Criterion's well-chosen supplements do a fantastic job of contextualizing it. It's a fairly straightforward film, despite being about fakery forgery and other artistic misdirections, so I can't imagine it leaving anyone befuddled. ;)

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I dunno anything about Simon of the Desert but Definitely Pick up F for Fake and In the Realm of the Senses. Very good sets. And dont bother with the Criterion Do the Right Thing criterion. Get the new 2-disk Universal 20th Anniversary Edition. Much better value.

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Army of Shadows has got to be one of the most incoherent, and disapointing movies I've seen from the Criterion Collection.

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unless you care about color timing and viewing the film as it was meant to be.

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How so?

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I sat in front of my tv with no distractions, and watched the whole movie in one sitting, and at the end, if you asked, I could not tell you what that movie was about...

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Well IMO both the Criterion and the new Universal look very good. But, both are indeed obviously different viewing experiences. IM glad to have both personnally but i dont feel it would take away much watching the new UNiversal remaster. .

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How does the Criterion release of Mona Lisa compare to the R1 Achor Bay release? DVDbeaver only has compairisons to the Anchor Bay R2 PAL release and says that the picture is slightly squished top-to-bottom.

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Well, the Anchor Bay and the Criterion are both bare-bones, which is a problem. The Criterion is non-anamorphic (a second strike), and it has serious artifacting issues.

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the print used for 'Tunes of Glory' has a nasty imperfection as I recall- I'd want Criterion to find a better print, if one so exists.

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W.C. Fields 6 Short Films is the most puzzling. No idea why it was released through Criterion instead of HVE. Interlaced, no digital restoration, and no extras. Still better than the public domain DVDs out there, but should have had a $19.99 MSRP from the start since it's NOT worth anything more than $14.