(My apologies to Giles for bringing this off topic for a little while longer.) I don't know if I would say that it's an insult to filmmaking, but the fact that filmmakers "allow" their films to be dubbed doesn't actually say much of anything about their opinion of the practice. Filmmakers also "allow" their films to be colorized, to be cropped, to be edited for television and airlines, etc. etc. All of those things still reduce the artistry of the films. And I have a feeling that filmmakers, in most cases, don't have much of a choice whether their films get dubbed or not - though I don't have any solid research to back that up.
And yes, we do get it, some people do like dubbing. (Otherwise the practice wouldn't continue.) Some dubs are well made. It's kind of the same as colorization - sure some colorization jobs can be much better than others, but it's still a waste of time.

With all that said, it doesn't really matter to me if a dub is made - as long as the original language track is still available. I don't have a heart attack everytime I hear that a dub is being made for a film - in fact, I'm sure dubbing helps films make more money in certain countries (such as the U.S.) Dubbing is still a waste of time and money, in my opinion, but I'm sure the practice will continue and I will live with it.

The Running Man - I don't think that everyone who prefers dubbing is illiterate and stupid or anything of that sort. Once again, as long as the original language track is always offered as an option, then it doesn't really bother me.

But there is actually a reason that a large majority of film fans (internet-based or otherwise) don't like dubbing. And it's definitely because we're all zombies.

We're just glad you could be here to show us the way, the truth, and the light. To free us from our state of blindness.

Thank you.

Gotta agree with that (and I'm not even an online reviewer ). I always try to listen to a bit of a film's dubbed track for shits and giggles, but found this one near unlistenable. Oh well, as long as the original language track is available, I'm happy. It just bugged me that on the KUNG FU HUSTLE Blu-ray, the Cantonese track was only available as PCM, and I don't have the equipment (HDMI receiver) to hear that track at any more than 2.0 (meanwhile the English dub is DD 5.1).

Yavin,
Neither do the subtitles.

Yeah, cause it's just plain funnier and more enjoyable in English than it is in Cantonese.

me12321,
Bad argument.

There have been film makers who didn't allow their films to be colorized and some who also don't allow their films to be edited in any way. And even those who do allow it, simply have their name removed from

The fact that there have also been film makers and actors who have been involved in dubbing processes also proves plenty otherwise about there being some sort of universal undercurrent of hate on dubs in the film community like you are implying.

If a film maker really didn't want a film to get dubbed, they wouldn't allow it. If it was such a travesty to film like all these one minded critics claim, then there would have been a union formed to protest against it, and it would have died out a long time ago just like colorization.

But it hasn't.

No, you don't get it. It's not "some", it's quite a lot. It's been well known fact that home video releases that carry a dub track for a foreign film sell better. If it didn't, they wouldn't be made as they cost far more money than just subtitling a film.

If you had attempt to find a peace in this at all, you just failed with that last part right there as it proves the absolute selfish and disgusting snootiness from people like you on this topic.

If someone enjoyed a film with a dub, who the hell do you think you are telling them that no matter what it's still a waste of time?

There is a reason I came across quite brash about this because every time I see this topic occur, the same type of people come out with the same dismissive high and mighty replies about it and frankly, it turns my stomach that this elitist behavior is accepted.

People have to fear the very notion of even admitting they like a dub or else they'll have to suffer the wrath of all the dub hater zombies out there who'll accuse you of succumbing to what they call an insult to art and allude that you are just not a real film fan because of it.

It's like a bunch of selfish bratty children getting together and creating an exclusive club, trying to make anyone who doesn't agree with what they say feel less because of it.

Which means nothing. There is a large internet group for everything. Heck, a large amount of internet geeks visit AICN. Does that make Harry Knowles 100% right?

cultshock,
Note what you said. You always listen to a dub track for shits and giggles.

Meaning you already have a negative slant on them from the get go. Not exactly an opinion that counts.

Now I wouldn't put it passed myself that this would prompt someone out there , so obessed with hating dubs would show up and claim, "I usually like dubs, but Kung Fu Hustle's dub sucked" just so they can make the opinion count.

It's true that I don't think much of dubbing films, but I have heard a bunch over the years (in the "old days", I often had to settle for a dubbed Asian film if I wanted to see it at all). I've heard dubtracks ranging from passable/not too bad to horrible, and this particular film has a track that's on the bad end of the scale. I'd hope my opinion counts (not an opinion on if dubbing is evil or not, but an opinion about the quality of a particular track) as I've heard enough to know decent dubbing from bad dubbing, and I'm sorry, but this one is just bad.

Dude, no offense, but that doesn't mean anything.

If someone doesn't like steak, no matter how good the best chief can sit down and cook up a masterful plate for him...if the guy doesn't like steak he won't like steak.

Now, if someone who is indifferent to steak takes a bite and says it's a great steak and the person who doesn't like steak takes a bite and says it's one of the worst steaks he ate, who's opinion do you think has more weight?

For someone who's angry with people for being one-sided, it seems that you're being awfully one-sided.

@ Skoobooz

What about if one steak was tolerable, and I could force it down, but another steak made me throw up? There are different levels of tolerance, even in things you don't care for. Everything isn't black and white for me. Some dubtracks are a darker grey than others, so to speak, in my view. I don't dislike them all equally, I'll be the first to admit if one is done rather well (eg. I've always been a big fan of SHOGUN ASSASSIN, a *gasp* dubbed version of a couple of Japanese films. I thought they did a great job on it). Seriously, I do get where you are coming from, honest, I'm just saying that I'm able to judge the quality of a dub.

Just to clarify, the edited version wasn't created for the US, or even shown first in the US. The edited version was the version that was shown in Mainland China. When Sony decided to release it in the US, they used the Chinese cut instead of the Hong Kong cut, for whatever reason.

SteelWill's link showed the known extras, almost all of which are new:


The new extras are:

• Comedy Central interview with Stephen Chow
• Storyboard comparison
• Three behind-the-scenes featurettes
• “Dressed to Kill,” costume design
• “Bringing Down the House,” production design
• “Organized Chaos, “ Yuen Wo Ping and fight choreography

None of these extras appeared on the previous R1, or on any release. The only extra from SteelWill's link that was on the previous release is "Outtakes and bloopers," assuming these aren't additional outtakes and bloopers.

Pass.

Get back to me when Shaolin Soccer:Ball Kickin' Edition is announced. Then we'll talk.

I thought this thread was supposed to be back on-track after post #25 ...

cultshock,
I think you like those Shogun Assassin dubs mostly out of nostalgia more than actual quality. For me to be in a group of people rewatching Kung Fu Hustle with the dub and all of us end up immensely enjoys it speaks volumes as to what the quality of the dub was. And unlike I am a person that at the moment's notice upon hearing a bad dub will not watch the rest, but again, that's based upon me not holding a prejudice against dubs. Just a prejudice against bad quality.

Look cultshock, you seem like a cool guy so I don't want to get into a back and forth thing on this, it's just that for a guy that puts on dub tracks for just "shits and giggles" says it all right there. So forgive me when I say that you're opinion, like a lot of people on this forum and the reviewers, is too unfair to take seriously.

And sadly in other cases, have their heads too far shoved up their ass to even bother.

To go with this analogy, it's more like a person going to a fancy restaurant and having a big plate of steaming dog poop set in front of him. And if this patron objects, you come out to say, "Your opinion doesn't count because you're biased against dog poop. This is actually a really good plate of dog poop, and anyone who enjoys dog poop would recognize that."

Now, you're certainly entitled to your opinion about the relative quality of one flavor of poop against another. But to the rest of us, it's still a pile of shit.

Actually Josh, your analogy proves what a biased and snooty attitude you have.

My analogy was quite in the middle, trying to prove a point.

Your analogy however was just you shoving your stubborn attitude down again by blatantly equating dubs with "dog poop".

It's really funny at times just how unbelievable this kind of attitude is. It's so forced.

Sorry, I have to disagree with you on that point. IMHO, the lines delivered in the original Cantonese are much funnier than the dubbed English. That is the thing that struck me the most when I watched the dubbed version well after I had watched the film in the original language. All the nuances of the original delivery are lost in the dub, and IMHO less-funny jokes are substituted for the original jokes. This may be because I have an understanding of Cantonese, but I'd be willing to bet that anyone that understands Cantonese will probably share the same opinion.

I am not a snob when it comes to dubs vs. subs. In fact I often find I'd rather have the dub because either I'm not in the mood to read the movie, or more likely I find having to read the titles distracting, which is diverting my attention from looking at what's going on in the scenes and getting immersed in the story since I can't see what's going on as good because I'm reading.

Sometimes I'll watch the dubbed version first and then later on I'll rewatch the film with subs.

Two people who I saw the dubbed with were Chinese and both speak Mandarin and Cantonese. Both said the English dub was better and specifically pointed out the lines (some which were different) were funnier and even how the actors delivered lines were better.

BTW, the argument that "nuances are lost" is such a typical argument I frequently hear against dubs that it is kinda a joke in and of itself. Even if it true, the argument doesn't acknowledge the fact the possibility of the nuances of the dub which is one of the things that makes a good dub good.

And forgive me Yavin, but I don't believe that you have a handle on Cantonese. Best case scenario, you are exaggerating your knowledge on it (you know a little, but are not fluent). Your "points" are all the same generic excuses I always hear that the elitists crowd uses against dubs.

Ok, so basically you yourself don't understand Cantonese so you yourself can't say that the English dub was better. You say that it's "just plain funnier and more enjoyable in English than it is in Cantonese" but really you have nothing to base this on other than the opinion of the two people you saw it with, which, and I mean no offense here, are just *their opinions*. Just like how I'm stating *my opinion* that the Cantonese language track is more enjoyable.
You say all the arguments you hear against dubs seem to be the same ones you hear over and over again, that they're formed from other people's opinions, yet based on what you say here it is logical to deduce that your opinion is formed from your friends' opinions.

You say that arguing that nuances from the original language track are lost in the dub is a typical argument against dubs. Yet that doesn't mean that it isn't true in this case. Just because all houses don't have a picket fence in the front yard doesn't mean that some don't.

You say that you're fair and unbiased yet you keep on trying to push your opinion that the English dub on this film is a good dub. C'mon, we're all just stating our opinions here, which is the whole point of these forums. Why does your opinion have to be right?

And as for you not believing that I have a handle on Cantonese, that is a pretty unfounded statement to make. In point of fact, I actually am Chinese (although on any forms that ask my ethnicity I am N/A) and I can speak and understand Cantonese perfectly well. To make such a statement that I don't have a handle on Cantonese after reading my two earlier posts would be like me saying that, based on your posts about the quality of the English dub, I don't believe that you have a handle on English.

I'm basing my opinion on my opinion. I've seen plenty of Chow films before and have laughed hysterically. Kung Fu Hustle I laughed, but not as much as I did with his other films. The English dub made me like the film even more. And that's a fact that is shared with me and may others I saw the film dubbed with and others I have suggested it to.

Shaolin Soccer, the film he made before this one, was better than Kung Fu Hustle and I thought it was funny as hell. The English dub for that was not as good as the one for Kung Fu Hustle and it didn't help that the thing was cut by a half hour.

Me bringing up the fact that I saw the film with two Chinese friends of mine who agreed with me is only because you made the ridiculous claim that any person who speak Cantonese would agree with you, and that is simply not true. Add the fact that it's simply a ridiculous claim period to suggest that someone's opinion on a dub is invalid because they don't speak the original language of the film.

Why are you saying this to me when you have people here who are making declarations that dubs are an insult to the art of film making, that dubs are "dog poop", and other disgustingly aragent and stubborn comments.

If this is a forum where everyone should feel welcome, it seems pretty obvious there is a heavy bias on some issues and those people who are not on the "right" side must be made to feel like crap and have to pay the consequences. And for what? For standing on your own two feet? Give me a break.

It might be unfounded you're right, but I am taking that guess. And you might be Chinese but that doesn't necessarily mean you are fluent in Cantonese.

LOL

That's a crummy analogy dude.

My famous last words on this side topic, and I'm officially signing off on this. I just want to make sure my original intentions are clear. Maybe someone needs to start a new thread about dubs ... Strike that, no one get any bright ideas.

My point here is that one can't say that a particular language track is better than another unless one has a good understanding of both languages.

I believe I was just expressing my opinion when I said "I'd be willing to bet that anyone that understands Cantonese will probably share the same opinion" (note the use of the word "probably"). And my point was not to say that your opinion is invalid, and I am sorry that my intentions were misconstrued. My point is just to say that one can't compare two options so definitively without a good understanding of both options.

I'm not necessarily defending any of the other statements. I think both sides have some valid arguments. But I get the impression from your posts that you have a pretty low regard for other opinions as well, with such statements as "Not exactly an opinion that counts", "No, you don't get it", "Dude, no offense, but that doesn't mean anything", etc.

That's just your opinion

When a movie is dubbed, the performances of the original actors are stripped out of it and replaced with other actors. Regardless of whether there are "nuances" in a "good dub", you're not watching the original movie. You're watching somebody else's interpretation of the movie.

Do you also argue in support of the "nuances" of colorized black & white movies?

Yavin,
My point is two things:

1) On this topic, you are wrong since I have two people that say otherwise.

2) To say that the opinion of someone who doesn't speak the original language that the dub is better than the original track does not count is a silly notion.

The simple fact that you even suggested that anyone who would understand Cantonese would agree with you reveals your extreme prejudice to dubs.

You're saying the same thing in more polite words Yavin.

You're just singling me out because you don't agree with me. Other people on this thread have made far more comments aiming lower than what I have made, but they don't like dubs so that makes them alright.

Here's a little hint on why your analogy was crummy: you are seeing me write in English right here.


Josh Z
You are correct. And that is how I view dubs. They are an alternate version of a movie. And just like many other movies that have different versions that people might and could prefer over another.

The problem with you is that you are making a blanket statement of "original is always 100% better" and it is a stubborn one because you are making that statement as if it is always true, regardless of the fact that the contrary has occurred over and over again to those people are aren't so fixated on the same rhetoric you subscribe to which are actually just green principles.

And you keep wondering why I write the same thing about you and you people. You are giving me the same memorized song and dance over and over again without so much as even paying attention to the actual conversation.

Not just cause I already dealt with that stupid analogy of colorized black and white movies before in this thread from someone else (which answers your question), it just ain't the same thing. Dubs are not the same as the fullscreen versus widescreen debate or the colorized thing. And here's why:

If I watch a movie subtitled, then I go back and watch it dubbed..and found it was more enjoyable than it subtitled because of the performances, lines, voice casting, etc... how is any of that wrong? It is an honest evaluation of the differences and that's it. It's no different than experiencing any other two things and preferring one over the other because they feel one was done better.

If you watch a film full screen and then someone puts on the widescreen version, unless the full screen version was sourced from Super 35, you will see you are missing a whole lot of image and there's no argument about it (and with the rise of widescreen tv sets, it'll just get to being more of the norm).

This is also not the same thing as colorized b&w movies because those were done for the effect of "modernizations" and dubs are not done for any such purpose. Yes, there are people that do find it difficult to keep up with the subtitles and that's probably just because they like looking at what's happening on screen all the time. That doesn't make them stupid no matter how many times you people want to say. They simply have a preference on wanting to pay attention to what is going on screen.

And then there is the other group of people, like me, that do not mind subtitles whatsoever but at the same time does not go into a hysteria over the issue on dubs. These people would like a dub because maybe...and this could be a shocker for some...because it's just good. That means the actual production of the dub was of high quality and therefore impressed and may have even been better than the original version.

Well put, and not in the least bit "aragent and stubborn"

If you concede that the dubbed version is not the original movie, then you can't pretend to judge the movie for better or worse based on the dub. You haven't watched Kung Fu Hustle. You've watched American Kung Fu Hustle, and it's not the same thing at all.

And what do you suppose you're doing here, spouting the same tired rhetoric about how dubs are a good thing and allow you to "concentrate on the visuals" that's been repeated time and again by anyone making excuses for why they're too lazy to read subtitles?

Dubs are done to "Americanize" foreign movies, which is even more insidious.

Let's call this the "Axe-Grindin'" edition instead