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First negative review, from http://animated-views.com/2007/peter...tinum-edition/
The reviewer knows the picture is lousy but can't seem to put his finger on the exact reason why, not having seen the previous DVD editions: Not having the Limited Issue and skipping the Special Edition due to a lack of content added to the LaserDisc that I was very happy with, this is my first time for Peter Pan on DVD. With the news that DTS Lowry Images were cleaning this up, I was expecting so much more than we get here…a soft transfer with over saturated warm colors and crushed blacks. Like Bambi, I may find myself going back to the more muted, but less direct-to-video coloring of my old LD. What have they done to my favorite picture? Made it look like the recent sequel Return To Never-Land, that’s what… (...) My favorite Walt Disney animated adventure has undergone a transformation, and not for the good in my opinion. The image is passable and will go unnoticed by most, but it’s over colored and lacking detail. And don’t get me started on those extras! Perhaps by the time Peter Pan goes Blu-Ray, the extra definition will counteract the softness on show here, while all that extra space could easily hold the important supplements originally promised us. The inclusion of the exact same film again with karaoke-style words onscreen is an insult. To say that I was disappointed with this Pan is nearly an understatement, but if it were not for the undeniable pull of the film, this could be a total misfire. |
Originally Posted by baracine
The Singing in the Rain transfer took the "blue edge" off the glorious Technicolor print, aiming for more realism. But in the new PE transfer of Peter Pan, it's more than an adjustment.... First of all, animation films don't aim for realism and second, the original costume colours are unrecognizable... They really went overboard.
Originally Posted by Giles
not only overboard, but they brightened the scenes to tv animation standards.
Originally Posted by baracine
First negative review, from http://animated-views.com/2007/peter...tinum-edition/
The reviewer knows the picture is lousy but can't seem to put his finger on the exact reason why, not having seen the previous DVD editions: Not having the Limited Issue and skipping the Special Edition due to a lack of content added to the LaserDisc that I was very happy with, this is my first time for Peter Pan on DVD. With the news that DTS Lowry Images were cleaning this up, I was expecting so much more than we get here…a soft transfer with over saturated warm colors and crushed blacks. Like Bambi, I may find myself going back to the more muted, but less direct-to-video coloring of my old LD. What have they done to my favorite picture? Made it look like the recent sequel Return To Never-Land, that’s what… (...) My favorite Walt Disney animated adventure has undergone a transformation, and not for the good in my opinion. The image is passable and will go unnoticed by most, but it’s over colored and lacking detail. And don’t get me started on those extras! Perhaps by the time Peter Pan goes Blu-Ray, the extra definition will counteract the softness on show here, while all that extra space could easily hold the important supplements originally promised us. The inclusion of the exact same film again with karaoke-style words onscreen is an insult. To say that I was disappointed with this Pan is nearly an understatement, but if it were not for the undeniable pull of the film, this could be a total misfire. |
You're right.
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From Platinum Edition:
http://animated-views.com/wp-content...tepanpe-10.jpg Compare the eye colour to this original artwork from the Burbank, California, Walt Disney Feature Animation and Animation Research Library, on display at this current Montreal Museum of Fine Arts Disney exhibition: http://www.mbam.qc.ca/disney/index_fr.html (scroll down to last picture and enlarge) http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465...t24.jpg?size=l |
I was unceremoniously booted out of the Home Theater Forum on the same subject four days ago for being too insistent on the colour question and standing up to online reviewer DaViD (sic) Boulet.
In the meantime, I received a letter from our own DVD Savant, Glenn Erickson (www.dvdsavant.com), who is planning an editorial on the subject. I would be grateful to any member who is presently contributing to HTF forums (Patrick?) to convey that information to the HTF forum if and when DVD Savant comes through with his promise. Thank you.:) |
Originally Posted by baracine
I was unceremoniously booted out of the Home Theater Forum on the same subject four days ago for being too insistent on the colour question and standing up to online reviewer DaVID (sic) Boulet.
Good for you for keeping to your guns on this. I've never found your posts to be anything less than courteous and professional on this topic and can't believe they were anything but over there. Ridiculous. Especially when you are clearly right about this. |
Originally Posted by DVD Josh
Ridiculous. Especially when you are clearly right about this.
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Originally Posted by PixyJunket
Being right is one thing (and subjective, in this case). Constantly hammering the point over and over and over and over and over and over and over again is another thing. I wouldn't be surprised if the latter is what elicited the negative reaction.
It's tough to say, we weren't there. But that's the current debate, and neither party should "give up" the other's position. |
Originally Posted by DVD Josh
You missed one "over" :D.
It's tough to say, we weren't there. But that's the current debate, and neither party should "give up" the other's position. Ah. The old Star Wars methodology. Have at it! |
You can form your own opinion. This is the thread: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...d.php?t=253014
My "disgrace" started on top of page 5. After the thread was closed for a few days and reopened and nobody volunteered anything interesting, I posted a picture of tumbleweeds and that was that. Out! |
Originally Posted by baracine
I was unceremoniously booted out of the Home Theater Forum on the same subject four days ago for being too insistent on the colour question and standing up to online reviewer DaVID (sic) Boulet.
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Originally Posted by Shazam
Boulet is blind as a bat. This isn't the first review where you have to wonder if he actually watched the movie, or if he just watched an imaginary version in his head.
The film’s original aspect ratio of 1.33:1 is represented faithfully on this new release. It’s a very strong video presentation with rich, bold colors, superb depth, and a rock solid image throughout. Grain has been virtually eliminated giving the entire film a very modern, clean look. Unlike the edge halos that appeared on the 2002 edition, there are literally none here. In comparison to the earlier Special Edition release of 2002, there is no arguing that colors have been tweaked in many cases and reimagined in a few instances. There are so many instances I could name and still just scratch the surface: Peter’s costume is now three distinct shades of green. Nana is colored much brighter shades of brown, yet the crocodile’s green has been toned down. Tinker Bell’s glow is much more distinct on this new edition than before. While the pirates are undoubtedly a very colorful bunch, the colors for them are richer but much less fluorescent in this new edition. Hook’s coat is less orangey-red and more burgundy now. And flesh tones for all but the Indians are much pinker and more consistent throughout. The Indians’ skin has definitely been lightened, not to my liking. Overall, the colors now are deep without being overly bright. In all honesty, I greatly favor the overall color scheme for this new edition, but I must say the mermaid sequence seemed richer to me on the earlier disc. Some of the jungle backgrounds in Never Land also seemed richer and less flat on the earlier release, but as to the overall look of the film, this 2007 DVD is the preferred visual presentation. The movie is divided into 31 chapters. |
Originally Posted by baracine
You can form your own opinion. This is the thread: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...d.php?t=253014
My "disgrace" started on top of page 5. After the thread was closed for a few days and reopened and nobody volunteered anything interesting, I posted a picture of tumbleweeds and that was that. Out! Did they delete that post? That sounds pretty damn funny. |
Yes, they deleted it.
It looked something like this: http://www.patandjean.com/blog/archi...umblealley.jpg And here is DaViD Boulet's DVDFile review: http://www.dvdfile.com/index.php?opt...=5949&Itemid=3 He spends a lot of time examining the dot crawl, looking for edge enhancement and ringing halos but he can't seem to know when the wool has been pulled over his eyes... Sample prose: While those with smaller screens may have been content with the image from the previous single-disc special edition, on a wide-angle viewing system (such as a front projection system or large-screen high definition display) viewed from approximately 1.5 screen widths distance, the previous DVD revealed dreaded “DNR” artifacts where the digital noise reduction algorithm would often attack fine hand-drawn outlines and image contours and create nasty “crawly” effects and cause fine-details to stutter during pans or zooms. If you have the older DVD and you have a high resolution display, you can see this artifact clearly during the film’s opening scene as the “camera” slowly zooms in from the clouds towards the Darling’s home. Look closely at the wooden struts in the window panes. They tend to flicker as if they aren’t being properly captured with each video frame. Then as we see Mrs. Darling calling to her husband through the bedroom window, the edge of the curtain lace crawls with a similar ghost-like vanishing and reappearing flicker. While DNR is (sadly) routinely applied by production houses to minimize film-grain to facilitate compression, it rarely results in high-fidelity images for critical viewers with revealing display systems, and animation is especially vulnerable to undesired artifacts from the process. By contrast, the image of this new DVD release is utterly film-like and bears no hallmark of any electronic signature such as DNR. The same opening sequence has a silky-smoothness during pans and zooms lacking in the jittery shifting backgrounds of the previous DVD. The new disc maintains a solid visual feel as the camera’s eye moves over and into the picture; the window pane’s wooden struts are always there, and the edge of the lace curtain is as stable as it would be with a projected film print. The mild edge-ringing present in the previous DVD has also been abolished in this new presentation (with only one or two isolated sequences with even a hint of halos) resulting in a much more natural, film-like image for wide-angle viewers. The image is now satisfyingly comfortable to watch. Whether this is a result of new digital mastering, improved compression, or a combination of both, it is success. Black level also seems improved as does the overall dynamic range and contrast in comparison with the previous release. And just like Bambi and Cinderella, despite the controversial removal of the film’s original natural grain structure, the resulting clarity gives the astonishing sensation that one is staring directly at the animators’ hand-painted backgrounds projected in your living room. Every detail of every brushstroke on those sumptuous background paintings looks as pristine as though they were just hung up to dry. It’s a visual feast that audiences would not have experienced even during the film’s original theatrical debut. If you’re an artist or an animator, you could watch the entire film merely as a 77 minute moving work of art. Bottom line: If you have a high-resolution, large-screen display that you view from a distance closer than two screen-widths, the picture quality of this new release will most likely result in a subjectively improved experience and justify the purchase of this set even without consideration for other aspects such as improved audio and additional bonus material. |
Having read that HTF thread, I think it's a case of them having bought into their particular views and not wanting to accept what baracine is saying. Baracine was unfailingly polite throughout that discussion (and the discussion here), although he is definitely persistent and steadfast in his viewpoint. He provides screen captures to support his views, while the naysayers provide little more than personal attacks. Boulet even goes so far as to distort one of baracine's posts to make it look like he is a conspiracy nut. Sheesh.
Anyway, it's a disgrace when a message board censors or bans someone simply because his message is unpopular with the "in crowd." I really value the posts baracine has made here regarding the PE Peter Pan - they have caused me to wait and see on this release since his screen capture comparisons look so damning to the PE. |
Thank you for the kind words... But I think the ultimate validation is being made a fuss over by DVD Savant. He just posted this opinion piece on the lastest DVD revisionism: http://dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/s2242pan.html (work in progress - not finalized yet - You get an exclusive preview!)
The Color of Peter Pan 3.20.07 I've put together this "article" in response to a couple of notes from frequent Savant correspondent Benoît A. Racine, mainly because I share his concerns with the revisionism being quietly applied to big-name DVD product. A couple of years back I saw some of the work being done to improve the James Bond films, and was pleased to see samples of the 4K digital restoration of Dr. No. Then I got a look at last Fall's DVD releases and was not as happy. Just a cursory look at From Russia With Love, Goldfinger and On Her Majesty's Secret Service showed that the look of the films had been substantially altered. Although cleaned up considerably, From Russia With Love had also been brightened overall, giving every daytime exterior and interior as full a range of brightness as possible. Dank scenes like the early chess tournament and the interior of Blofeld's secret yacht were now as bright and peppy as a television commercial. On Live and Let Die, the main titles had been drastically washed out, as if somebody in the Eon organization wanted to find extra nudity in the hi-contrast images. The worst offender was On Her Majesty's Secret Service, which I have seen numerous times theatrically, in Technicolor prints. The movie opens with a moody sunset action scene on a beach, carefully timed to allow a blazing orange sky to dominate all shots. The final, main battle in Majesty's takes place in dawn's early light high in the Italian Alps. Telly Savalas and Diana Rigg watch as Bond's helicopters attack out of the rising sun. Both of these scenes have been neutralized, so that they appear to be happening in broad daylight. I've been told that the people at Eon overseeing these transfers simply decided they didn't like the way the old films looked and wanted them all changed, right down to specific subjective decisions about color. Surviving Tech prints weren't even referenced. I wasn't going to go after the Bond films again until they came out in HD, but now I'll be watching to see what they look like. My old, "inferior" Bond DVD special editions will be have to do; I don't want to watch film history being repainted. That is also what appears to be done on a routine basis at Disney. For this new Platinum Edition of Peter Pan, reader Benoît A. Racine does his best to point out some serious revisionism. I'll watch Peter Pan every couple of years or so, it's relaxing and good fun ... I only remember Tinker Bell and the Crocodile when I saw it at age 4 or so, back in 1956. Luckily, I have the 2002 Special Edition with the accurate color scheme. Benoît forwarded this letter, which contains a review he posted on the IMDB. I thought it was important and asked to reformat it and post it here. Dear Glenn, The just-released Platinum Edition DVD features a newly restored version of the 1953 film that has been drained of its trademark Technicolor blue in favour of a more soft-hued, more "golden", "pixie-dusted" presentation. The only thing I found wonderful about this new DVD edition, actually, is its remastered sound. I am hoping for a public response from you, which would make you the first online critic to have even noticed this atrocity. Here is the text of my IMDB review of the Peter Pan Platinum Edition re-coloring job, from February 8, 2007: In this third DVD edition of the Disney classic, the colours have been drastically altered. The contrast is subdued and the bitrate is not very high. The colours are slanted, not so much towards yellow as towards gold. Everything is imbued with a golden glow that brings out the golden highlights on everything from Mr. Darling's cuff links to the golden ornaments on Hook's ship. Interestingly, this change puts special emphasis on Tinker Bell, making her the glowing center of all interest and elevates her role; she's now the real heroine of the story. Peter Pan's tunic is at times almost goldenrod instead of Lincoln green. There is no true blue sky, just a variant of Egyptian Blue. Neverland sometimes looks like your lazy neighbour's parched garden. The skies are often milky white or beige. The red and blue wallpaper in the Darling children's bedroom is now brownish. Mermaid Lagoon has lost its greenery and turned a repulsive pink ... The funny thing is, once you accept that the action takes place in Neverland in the fall, with lots of brown, yellow and orange leaves everywhere, you sort of learn to like it. It's a wild, one might say "experimental", concept. It's also a radical revision of the film's look. On the downside, the Redskins have turned a politically correct pink. On the plus side, every brown and yellow surface is made to shine unnaturally, even at night, and lots of things are visible in the dark that weren't before. The reverse is true in the daytime. http://dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/images/2242merm1.jpghttp://dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/images/2242merm2.jpg More revisionism: I noticed a slight shimmy in the London cityscape at night just before the camera pans up to Neverland has been eliminated in this version. Can they do that? In the indoor scenes, this slant towards yellow makes sense as it replicates the warm, nostalgic, homey glow of lamplight. Otherwise... The best thing I can say is that it gives the viewer a brand new (though some might say old-fashioned) perspective on a film he's seen maybe too often. The total effect is somewhat reminiscent of a yellowed full-colour illustration in an old picture book. A quick look at the numerous Art Galleries in the extras will remind you that there should have been a whole lot more green and blue everywhere according to the original artwork. http://dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/images/2242inj1.jpghttp://dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/images/2242inj2.jpg Considering the radical changes made to the colour palette, maybe they could have called this the "Golden Slumbers Edition", the "Pixie Dust Edition" or, better still the "Global Warming Edition"... And it's not something you can correct with the Tint button (which adds red or green) or with the Cold setting (which adds a little blue). But it's perfect if an improved sound is very important to you, if you have no memories of what "Peter Pan" used to look like or if you really pictured Hook's harpsichord as being made of solid gold. -- Benoît A. Racine DVD Savant: I've heard about some Disney animation being digitally re-colored for video but have never really seen hard examples of the changes. The screen grabs provided by Benoît grabbed me. DVD Savant is NOT a site devoted to version comparison and does not set itself up to wag irate fingers at DVD companies, at least not as a standard practice. When something irks me, I'll squawk, as I did with a Pan-Scan transfer several years back with Castle Keep. I don't think it's necessary to staff film restoration companies with monks sworn to replicate every nuance of original theatrical presentations, but a reasonable respect for what a film once was is certainly appreciated. I'm sure that Peter Pan looks quite attractive in its new GoldenVision look, but I think I'd rather stick with the earlier disc, with its full original color range. |
Benoit I have alot of respect for you and how you've handled yourself. Let me say that if HTF won't have you, we certainly will and appreciate a guy like you contributing here for a good long while. You won't be the first guy banned from HTF around here and you won't be the last. Epstein is a corporate shill who cares more about his sponsors than the content of his forum.
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Originally Posted by DVD Josh
Benoit I have alot of respect for you and how you've handled yourself. Let me say that if HTF won't have you, we certainly will and appreciate a guy like you contributing here for a good long while. You won't be the first guy banned from HTF around here and you won't be the last. Epstein is a corporate shill who cares more about his sponsors than the content of his forum.
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Though I can cetainly see the differences in this release compared to others, I do not find it the equal of urinating on Walt's grave. But little did I know I should have been calling for Benoît's banishment! Lesson learned! ;)
Joking aside Benoît, thanks for hanging around. I don't draw all the same conclusions as you, but I enjoyed reading your input. |
The page is now officially up and linked to the main page: http://www.dvdsavant.com/ :)
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There is no way that anyone here or over at THTF can remember what Peter Pan looked like in the theater in the 1950's. Nobody has a memory that good. After hours of reading through the thread I have come to the conclusion that people need to get a life.....i wasted hours of mine just shifting through it. How do we know that is not what it originally looked like? The damn thing looks great just the way it is.
It's not like Greedo shooting first or anything...sheesh! :) |
Originally Posted by flyboy
There is no way that anyone here or over at THTF can remember what Peter Pan looked like in the theater in the 1950's. Nobody has a memory that good. After hours of reading through the thread I have come to the conclusion that people need to get a life.....i wasted hours of mine just shifting through it. How do we know that is not what it originally looked like? The damn thing looks great just the way it is.
It's not like Greedo shooting first or anything...sheesh! :) And perhaps you are in the way wrong place if you think that people discussing DVDs and Movies on a forum dedicated to such (not to mention a place where you have been a member for 8 years with several hundred posts) need to "get a life". Just utter rubbish, and very hypocritical. |
Eh, whatever. I know it's wrong but the old DVD releases look to have the colors a little too saturated while this one kinda takes some of the life out of it. Something in between would have been nice but I'm actually ok with the new release after watching it.
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Anyone who can't see that this version is just wrong is blind. Whether you choose to buy it anyway is a different story. I passed on this release thanks to Mr. Racine. Thanks for not letting yourself get bullied.
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Originally Posted by wewantflair
Anyone who can't see that this version is just wrong is blind. Whether you choose to buy it anyway is a different story. I passed on this release thanks to Mr. Racine. Thanks for not letting yourself get bullied.
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