Dark_Sithlord

I was wondering if fans of John Woo's The Killer, can help me out. I've noticed the banner atop of this website for www.hkflix.com advertising The Killer. I already have the Criterion edition and the U.S. Winstar edition. The Killer is one of my all-time favourite movies, and would like some opinions as to which other DVD versions are worth buying. No bootleg editions, please. I googled about 7 or 8 other editions that are OOP, 2-disc Special Editions, bootlegs, or imported...which ones are legitimate and worth buying? Is there one particular edition which Woo calls definitive? Thanks in advance for your help.

PopcornTreeCt

You have the Criterion edition and it's not good enough? Crazy!

RyoHazuki

The Hong Kong Legends is the one to get, but its R2. The criterion is tied with the Fox Lorber edition as the best R1.


You can see the comparisons here: http://dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDCompare2/killer4.htm

Yocke

The Criterion version is not very good. Get the r2uk dvd from Hong Kong Legends, or the r3 version you can get from dddhouse.com. I think the r3 has worse subs though.

Dark_Sithlord

Maybe you aren't aware, but the Criterion version isn't the pinnacle edition of The Killer. It's probably the most rare, therefore the most expensive and sought after by fans. And nor did I ever say it wasn't good enough. I'm asking if there are other editions worth buying.

Thanks for the link, RyoHazuki. I'll check it out.

Quatermass

I noticed the one HKflix is selling says "imbedded subtitles", which made me wonder if that means both the English and Chinese subtitles are always on the screen at the same time.

grim_tales

Yes thats right.
That's the rare longer Taiwan cut of the movie, which is also available on a 2 disc SE from HK video in France (I have it). The shorter cut is on the other disc.
I find HK Flix's wording strange, I always assumed the shorter cut (105m PAL/110m NTSC) was Woo's "Director's Cut"?
If you can play R2 DVDs the Hong Kong Legends DVD is the one to go for IMO for the best overall package.

Fincher Fan

I did extensive research into this and, as the above posters have said, found the R2 HKL disc to be the best of them.

Yocke

The Taiwanese cut is not Woo's preferred cut. It's a workprint, which was the only thing that was finished when Taiwan was supposed to have their earlier premiere of the film.

Stromboli

I've been reading about how people desire, and pay crazy prices for The Killer, and Hard-Boiled. Why doesn't Criterion print more?

Djangoman

Criterion only has advantages in extras - the pic quality is not the best. As others said, R2 Hong Kong Legends edition is still the best out there. Don't know about R3 (or R0?) from Hongkong.

Venom

they can't. they don't have the rights anymore. both movies were released when dvd was new. i guess there was no way of knowing the future for them to flood the market.


at any rate, didn't Miramax get the rights to both or one of these? With the split from disney, who winds up with the rights?

cplhicks

I'd love to get this one, but seeing as it is PAL and I don't have a TV that can do PAL...

Adam

Edison

Then you just need a player that will convert PAL > NTSC. There are quite a few and some fairly cheap ones. (Apex, Toshiba, Cyberhome, etc.)

Doughboy

Another vote for the HKL R2 version. Good picture quality and really cool extras. Fortunately, I haven't seen the movie anywhere near as often as Hard Boiled, so the PAL speedup never bothered me.

cplhicks

Sorry if this sounds like a dumb newbie question, but the players will actually convert PAL video to play on an NTSC screen? And it looks okay? I have to admit, I read a lot of this stuff, but I was somewhat unaware of this. And presumably these same players are region free? Thanks.

Adam

wendersfan

To answer question 1, yes, they convert PAL --> NTSC. For most people it looks 'OK'. Some lower-priced models have a problem converting anamorphic PAL. As for your second question, don't assume that just because it does PAL --> NTSC conversion a player is also region free. Sometimes they are, and sometimes they can be made that way with "hacks".

Saunter over to the International DVD subforum and catch up on your reading. FWIW, I have a pair of Philips DVP642 machines that do everything I need them to do.

chente

Adding to that, my Toshiba SD-4900 which I bought for less than $80 shipped plays every dvd from any region I have thrown at it with no problems.

natesfortune

Just came across this, and I have to vehemently disagree about the R2 Hong Kong Legend's disc...

I own this disc, as well as the Criterion, and while the Criterion doesn't have near the picture quality, I watch it over the HKL every single time, because the subtitle translation is simply so much better.

The Criterion version are the Woo-approved subtitles.

The Hong Kong Legends version is simply embarassingly bad, and distracts from the film - whether it's them screaming the badly-done nickname over and over in the climax(the actual nickname in Cantonese is not nearly so distracting, and the Criterion subs wisely replace it at the end with the guy's actual name, which is closer to the intent and feel of the original), or many other examples, the HKL subs are just BAD.

"I always save the last bullet, either for myself, or for my enemy." - Criterion.

"I always hold on to one last slug, either to use on myself or to use on the other guy."(Paraphrased from the HKL)

Which one is more to the point and poetic, and in keeping with the tone of the film?

The HKL has the same problem as many "new and improved" subtitle translations on ANY disc - they seem obsessed with changing EVERY subtitle so much that they don't just leave the well-translated lines alone. Or maybe copyright laws force them to change everything.

So even the obviously perfect subs, like the above, get words unnecessarily and clumsily added to them in order to make them "different".

The result is a much, much worse viewing experience.

Subtitles are NOT dialogue, but they read as such in the context of a movie, and efffectively changing the entire dialogue of a whole film obviously impacts the film a great deal - which is why subtitle translations are just as important, if no moreso, in my view, than picture quality.

I'd rather see a lesser picture but get the best presentation of the tone and mood of the film than see a great picture with a terrible, distracting, cartoonish translation.

OldBoy

wow! that's some bad subtitling. glad i got the Crit.

Fincher Fan

As others have said, the R2 HKL is the best version currently available.

dx23

This website has details of what each DVD offer. http://www.dvdcompare.net/comparisons/film.php?fid=1919

darmok

i assume the recent IVL (HK) release has a better picture than the old Criterion?

natesfortune

Those websites ONLY compare picture quality and quality of extras.

Nobody out there, as far as I know, takes a serious look at subtitles as a comparison, though they should, as effectively changing the entire dialogue of a film from one thing to another has an obvious dramatic impact. For instance, change out the dialogue of Pulp Fiction and add something different and see how different the film is in tone and mood.

I have both versions, and without a doubt, the Criterion is a better presentation of the MOVIE, as it has far better, Woo-approved subtitles.

The HKL version certainly has better picture quality, but the terrible subtitle translation just outright wrecks the movie.

I'll put my money where my mouth is and do an actual comparison soon.

natesfortune

Just some random lines pulled out of the film - including the actual quote on the "last bullet" thing - I checked the disc and the HKL was even worse than I remembered...

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CRITERION:

"I always save the last bullet. Either for myself, or for my enemy."

HKL:

"Don't you remember I always save the last bullet. I either use it to kill someone or kill myself."

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Okay - if this one quote doesn't make one want to burn their HKL disc of this film then they have no ear whatsoever for dialogue.

Which one is the punchier dialogue? Succinct, elegant and memorable? Which one is just needlessly wordy, clunky and inelegant? You wouldn't remember that line if you wanted to. On a disc where you are trying to "improve" the subtitles, why on earth would you replace the first translation with the second?

This is pretty clear cut - the Criterion comes off like a cool line of dialogue in the film, the HKL comes off like a wordy, clunky mess that completely ruins the moment. It's like the Epstein brothers were replaced by a third grader in the dialogue department.

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Sydney comes into the Church, and asks the Killer if he believes in God(or "all this" depending on which version you have). The Killer's response:

CRITERION:

"No. But I enjoy the tranquility here."

HKL:

"I like it because it's quiet in here. I feel comfortable sitting here."

---------

Good Lord. The third grade dialogue writer strikes back. But it's even worse - this time, he's making the ultra-cool main character sound like a third grader himself with this clunky, tepid response! Is he going to start reciting Green Eggs and Ham next?

"I like this. I feel that. I love to do both, as a matter of fact."

And this is the Killer's first line of dialogue in the film!

Not only is the new translation a needless mouthful, it's just bad dialogue. Would you write this into one of your scripts as the first lines out of a ultra-cool hitman's mouth?

Pathetic.

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CRITERION:

"Watch your ass."

HKL:

"Staying alive is important."

-----------

Notice how the HKL just flows right off the tongue - sounds like something two grown police officers would say to each other right before entering a tense undercover situation...

Oh wait, no, that's the Criterion version I'm talking about. The HKL translation is patently ridiculous.

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CRITERION:

"Life's cheap. It only takes one bullet."

HKL:

"Every shot take a life."

-------

Again, the Criterion version is perfect, hard-boiled film noir dialogue, whereas the HKL version sounds nothing like anything ANYBODY who speaks English would actually ever say.

Way to go HKL!

And once again - which one would you rather put in your hard-boiled film noir script?

---------------------------------------------------

Danny Lee is talking to his partner - he has just mentioned his "one bullet" line, says a few more lines, and then says that he doesn't think the Killer is an ordinary assassin... his partner responds:

CRITERION:

"It takes only one bullet, ordinary or not."

HKL:

"Every shot takes a life and he's not cold-blooded?"

------------

Wow, again, the HKL version just rolls right off the tongue - a perfect call-back to the "one-bullet" line before...

NOT!!!

Not to mention that the Criterion version, oh, MAKES SENSE, whereas the HKL version makes no sense whatsoever. The partner is being ironic - giving him a warning - "hey, he may be different, but remember it still only takes one bullet, okay?" The HKL version just repeats what he says and then asks an out of nowhere question "he's not cold-blooded"?

And there are seriously people out there that say this is the best version of this film available?

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CRITERION:

"No money, no action, Mr. Weng. Not even if I see his finger on the trigger, ready to blow your head off."

HKL:

"If I don't see a bank receipt from you, even if someone were to hold a gun to your head now, I won't move a finger."

----------

Criterion gets a pass on the "would I put this in my film noir script?" test. HKL not only fails, but gets de-pants and kicked square in the balls by the angry teacher.

Again - which version is supporting the film noir atmosphere of the film, and seems natural, and which version sounds like somebody from an English as a Fifth Language class wrote it?

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And finally, when Jenny hangs up the phone after asking the Killer to come get her at the airport, there's a neat little cut-exchange on the dialogue - at least in the Criterion version...

CRITERION:

Danny Lee's partner: "Will he come?"

Cut to:

The Killer's friend: "Will you go?"

----------

Nice. Nice transition and nice device to build a little tension going into this scene with these dueling questions.

This also mirrors the theme Woo has running through out the film, of, well, the mirror - the two cops and the two Killers are very alike - two sides of the same coin. Both partners are very loyal, and both are killed in the film by the REAL bad guys, and die in the arms of their comrades.

And yes, this also harkens to the scene where cop and Killer share a cigarette and a talk - Woo "crosses the line" here, giving each character an unconventional, shared line of sight, which is usually a no-no in a dialogue scene, where one character is supposed to look one way and the other a different way in terms of screen direction between each cut, so the audience isn't confused. Woo breaks this film rule on purpose here, so they're both looking in the same direction, and it looks as if they're looking in a mirror.

That "will you, will you" construction of the scene above supports this theme.

So nice, then, that the moment is COMPLETELY FRIGGIN' WRECKED in the HKL version:

HKL:

Danny Lee's partner: "Do you think he's going to come?"

Cut to:

The Killer's friend: "Are you going to go?"

---------

The HKL version unnecessarily clutters this exchange by adding words that dilute its punch and effect. The "will you vs. will you" construction is gone here in favor of adding unnecessary words to make the subs "different" from the Criterion version... and miss the point of the whole exchange.

Again - which version would you put in YOUR script?

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And the entire film is this bad, in the HKL subs. I didn't cherry pick, I just picked some random examples of memorable lines and compared them. I could go on and on for pages.

And these changes surely add up big time when watching the film as a whole. The Criterion version successfully supports the film noir tone and thick atmosphere of the film. The Hong Kong Legends version not only does not support this atmosphere at all, but it actually tears it down with cartoonishly clumsy and wordy translations like the above.

Again - if you were reading this as dialogue in a script, which one would you think was better? The Criterion gives us many memorable lines, while the HKL just gives us a bunch of wordy crap.

Just embarassing... and the clunky translations like this on the HKL disc are a body blow to the film noir mood this movie is going for.

Yes, the better subtitle translation BEATS picture quality, as at least I'm watching the film in the best possible light with memorable dialogue that is brief(the soul of wit, remember) and memorable, regardless of if it is notanamorphic and has a few scratches.

This is far preferable to the clear-looking but cartoonishly wordy and clunky alternative that is the HKL disc.