Sapien! Interesting thread but there is one thing I haven't seen mentioned by anyone in this entire thread... macroblocking.

Macroblocking is what prevents me from calling my PPV movies stored on my HD PVR "better" than DVD. I would rather watch the DVD, especially for action movies.

I use a Scientific Atlanta 8300 on a 50" Sony LCD RP. I just love the HD images I get, but the movies I watch on PPV aren't very inspiriting because anytime the scene shifts too fast the details turn into big ugly pixels. This is very noticeable to me and I do not get this at all on DVDs.

How are you able to watch PPV movies without it? It's my understanding that macroblocking is a problem with throughput of the mpeg2 compression being exceeded by the demands of the images when things start moving quickly.

Be like me and enjoy your DVDs,then when HD comes out I buy nothing but HD new releases,im not about to rebuy 400 of my favorite titles just because it's HD,it'snot a huge diffrence to me but will continue to enjoy both.

DVD uses MPEG-2 as well, so it's not an inherent problem with HD in particular. If you're noticing this on a significant amount of material, perhaps your cable provider is overcompressing material, perhaps the 8300HD doesn't recompress material well when it writes it to the hard drive, or maybe it's a combination of the two.

Hey Adam.

I don't discount there may be problems with implementation on the part of either my cable provider or the SA 8300 ("too much" macroblocking is a common complaint from Rogers subscribers using the 8300, I'd be interested in how visible macroblocking is for other HD viewers especially from the US, but this probably isn't the place).

However, macroblocking isn't a problem with DVD because DVD is Standard Definition, fewer pixels to keep track of than HD.

It is useful to define macroblocking. The tiny squares that emerge to obscure finer details in images on digital video that is compressed too much or when images on screen or POV move quickly. Macroblocking is caused by an inherent limitation of the mpeg compression (19.4 Mb/sec). Basically any time there are too many colours, too many pixels moving too fast you get a certain degree of macroblocking.

If HD DVD/Blu-Ray use the same Mpeg2 compression they'll run into the same ceiling. An HD stream contains over 1.3 Gb/sec of information and is not always served well by the same compression method used by DVD.

Macroblocking should not to be confused by "pixilation" which are very hard solid colour squares that blot out digital video images caused by weak signal strength.

DVD doesn't suffer either of these problems, although similar macroblocking problems are caused by poor 3-2 pulldown and video processing. Which is why I still like DVD better than HD-movies in 5.1.

Agreed. I have no problem sounding like a broken record. Take the damn SD sets off the market, make 'em buy HD TVs the next time around and solve alot of problems and expenses for the masses in the next 5 years. When CD replaced vinyl there was almost NO transition period......you walked into the record store and 90 percent of the stock was now CD. Thats what needs to happen here. As cheap as the smaller sets are becoming, anyone in the market needs to make the change and be done with it, regardless of any delays in broadcasting regulation.

I think people are gonna be truly pissed if HD-DVD comes out later this year and the companies push it hard. Then again it won't be marketed as a new format but a simple double-dip. I'm not gonna deny that HD is better than DVD, but its not enough to make me re-buy all my DVDs.

They are obviously going to push it. They want a switch over regardless of what anyone else wants outside the industry. You don't have to rebuy anything if you don't want to.

I buy most of my movie DVDs used, either from BlockBuster, Hollywood Video, or from pawn shops. I've always waited until they come down in price to get them for under $10. The video stores have a lot of sales - buy 2 get 1 free or buy 3 for $25 deals - so I just wait for the sales and buy a lot of titles at once.

I used the term HD media because that would also include HD-VHS. I haven't priced them lately but I think they were going for around $30 with no discounts available. I don't know, that may have changed. I don't expect HD-DVDs to be discounted for the early adopters and it may take some time before they reach the used market.

I have come to realize that I have my own prejudices and preferences when it comes to home theater and I have to be careful not to enforce them on other people. What is best for me is not always what is best for others. That was brought home to me yesterday afternoon when my wife and I were talking to a lady about her husband's graduation ceremony from firefighter's school. She said that a video was available of the ceremony and that she could get it in either VHS or DVD. I thought, ok, she's going to get the DVD, the most logical choice. She surprised me when she said that she was going to pick up the VHS version instead because her children have a tendency to ruin their DVDs. I had to concede that she was right, that was a good enough reason (for her) not to buy DVDs. My wife talked her into getting one of each and hiding away the DVD for the future.

I have not bought a DVD this year, but I have rented about 10 DVDs. I have not stopped buying because of HD-DVD/Blue Ray, but because I needed to save money.

I have watched the same show in HD and DVD, both were enjoyed just the same. The enjoyement of the movie is the subject, not just the quality of the video.

I have about 10 DVDs I want to purchase this year and I will enjoy them in DVD.

I will pickup the ones I want to buy used.

See now again you are comparing apples (HD_DVDs) and oranges (HD-VHS). Regardless of what you "expect" it matters what has been reported, and that the HD products will be priced similar to DVD. The studios WANT this to succeed and aren't foolish enough to price the media out of reach.

There is so much fear of HD it really makes me laugh. So irrational. You can still keep and play your current discs. You don't need to replace every disc you own. Sheesh. What if PS2 owners were so xenophbic to the future PS3 scene? Same exact thing.

I say 1-1 1/2 years until one format "wins" and then another 1 1/2- 2 years years until the players completely supplant current DVD players. Of course they'll still play DVDs so if you need to replace a player, then wham! You have a HD player in your home.

This is an absurd post. To me HDTV is not about tech at all. It's about enjoying my my movies, TV programs, and sports MORE due to better visuals.
Isn't that what home video is all about, sights and sounds? If you can get much better sights with HD, then why stick with SD? It is UNDENIABLE there is a clearly ( no puin intended ) visible difference in watching a really good HD program vs even the best SD program including DVD. HD is about an improved viewing EXPERIENCE not about technology...
HD is for everyone, not techheads. Those of you still watching SD TVs in
10 years will be like those still watching VHS today. Its possible, but WHY?
Its not like a HDTV set costs that much that it is unaffordable to the average person.

As for those who dont think it makes a difference I ask you why dont stick with VHS? You can probably get used tapes on ebay for next to nothing.
Oh, what's that? , VHS isnt up to DVD quality ? Well DVD isnt up HD quality, same thing.
Once you get used to seeing really good HD transfers of you favorite movies
you wont be so enthusiastic about DVD anymore. I never suggested anyone
sell their DVDs and DVD player ( I know I wont ) because I am sure it would be years, if ever, if everything released on DVD makes it to HD DVD, but for the my favorite films that really do end up with a much better transfer on HD DVD I will be first in line to get them as long as they are reasonably affordable and I dont see any reason why they wont be.

I never suggested that anyone re-buy all their DVDs in the HD-DVD format even if that was possible ( I dont think it will be ). The point of this thread is that I find myself reluctant to continue to buy DVDs NOW because I know a much better format is right around the corner so to speak. I have no regrets in getting to DVD, its been great and well worth the investment, but with a much better format coming soon, I am slowing down on DVD no doubt about it due to my HD experiences. My standards have been raised and that is inevitable as time goes by.

DVD sound is another reason I'm Reluctant to buy more
 

I forgot to mention this but another reason I am not so enthusiastic about
DVD anymore is the sound quality. I have been a HI-FI music enthusiast for over 30 years. During this time home video sound has made dramatic improvements but I am sorry Dolby Digital and DTS are both dramatically inferior and out of date technologies and do not come even close to the sound quality of todays SACD, DVD-Audio, or even vinyl LPS. While DVD does have a provision for 24 bit/96KHZ stereo audio which can be excellent, it has be seldom used at all due to data limitations. What I am hoping is with HD-DVD we finally get same quality with home video as SACD/DVD-Audio/Vinyl.
That has been the second and to me HUGE reason I havent been as exicted about DVD lately. Remember SACD/DVD-Audio did not exist when DVD (video) format was launched, so the standards have changed for the better and DVD
simply hasnt kept up.

LOL I'll be sure and tell Gram-ma to hide her VHS tapes before hifisapien and the VHS-police break down her door and take them away. On second thought, if we put in the HD-DVDs for her, she might not even know her precious VHS tapes were missing. http://forums.csbanana.com/images/sm...ndard/rofl.gif

Good luck hifisapien, you're fighting a battle that cannot be won. You can spout all your technobable and show all of the pictures and diagrams you want but you will never win over Joe Sixpack. Believe me, I've seen the widescreen vs fullscreen wars rage on now for years and there are still plenty of fullscreen (MAR) movies being sold. Joe Sixpack just don't care.

Peace. Out.

:lol: That's funny... post-after-post you talk about the super specs of HD. You can't be drawn to HD because of the actual material because there is very little content in HD as compared to DVD. You started this thread by saying you are losing interest in DVD because of HDTV. Your whole position is based on the fact that HD is a technically superior format... discussion of the availability of content has taken a back seat.

The gap between TV shows broadcast in HD and released on DVD is widening (HD broadcasts are not keeping up with DVD releases) So you only enjoy TV shows that are broadcast in HD (in which case it is the spec that is driving your enjoyment) not the content.

Your latest post then talks about audio quality. :lol:

If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, and sounds like a duck... it's a "gearhead". :) You can deny it if you'd like but it doesn't make it any less true.

There are some of us who use DVDs merely as a transport for what we are REALLY interested in.... the content...the films and tv shows themselves. HD could be 200 times better than DVD, but if the films and shows that I'm interested aren't available in that format, then I have no interest in it.
(insert hifisapien's obligatory "go back to your VHS tapes" comment here)

For some it is about the specs... higher res, higher bitrates, higher sampling rates, more is better.

HD-VHS prices are high because print runs of the tapes are only around 2000-4000 for each movie. A used Criterion Salo is probably easier to find than some of the d-theater tapes are to buy new or used! HD-dvd will have more titles on launch than D-VHS has now. D-theater has not really been pushed as a format by anyone other than JVC. The fact that the format has lasted since 2002 despite high player prices is amazing.

I think HD-dvd and Blue-Ray are going to be around for some time. Let's be honest, the PS3 will bring Blue-Ray home to millions of J6P families the way the PS2 brought home dvd. I wouldn't be surprised to see the HD-dvd group push their format to Microsoft either.

I have to disagree with you halfsapien, I think you're getting a bit out of hand here. I too am an audio enthusiast, I won't call myself an audiophile because most audiophiles are into witchcraft.

Dolby Digital and DTS are very close to SACD and DVD-Audio.

Sound engineers performing film to DVD transfers would do better to make the most of the DTS/DD technologies available to them rather than bastardizing new standards with crappy transfers. Sure, HD-DVD should be capable of higher resolution audio, but for a lot of films it will be a thin layer of lipstick on the face of the same old pig.

I wanted to mention I don't have any interest in SACD or DVD-audio, so I see where people are coming from that care about content over more quality. Just don't buy new equipment until prices reach dvd levels if that is what fits your lifestyle choices. That is why the new players will be backwards compatible.

Secondly, while I can't compare the digital music formats "sound quality" to that of standard dvd, as I have no DVD-audio or SACD equipment, I can say that the slightly higher bitrates utilized by D-theater is much better than that of dvd. I'm not using top of the line sound equipment either, just an older Kenwood HTIB. I imagine Lossless audio will be a much more accurate representation of the original soundtrack.

I saw a VCR on sale in my sunday paper at a national retailer.

I still use my VCR for recording. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Don't use it much for recording any longer....but my player is still getting a ton of use, thanks to the 150 or so films that are not yet on dvd. Sure, I could put them onto a disc but to me it's a waste of time because most, at some point, will be released. I keep all my tapes with my dvd library because after all....films are films.

Perhaps. Although I haven't converted my special tapes to DVD (DVD would be wasted due to the quality of the tapes), I HAVE converted them to VideoCDs. This solution offers 3 benefits... First, can easily be created and viewed on any PC with a regular CD burner/player. Second, CDs are more durable than videotape, and Third, it is more convenient to have a single player in the living room. :)

I just thought it funny with all the talk of the obsolescence of inferior products when superior products become readily available that a VCR and tapes are still easily had.

A vcr...maybe. But they're definitely on their way out and have been for some time now. I don't even know where to buy (or rent, for that matter) a VHS any more.

I unfortunately have too many VHS tapes with little room to store them, at least in the same room as my dvds. I just placed them in a custom vault for now until I can get a burner. I'm currently arranging to store HD formats with my dvds assuming the studios don't start going wacky with the packaging. I like the newer formats like dvd because they don't take up as much space. Surprisingly enough, most of my favorite taped movies are all in my betamax collection ....

HBO premiere of the The Empire Strikes Back.
Alternate scenes of Superman 2 when broadcast on TV.
My only single copy of Rad

In short, I see what you are saying. :thumbsup: