You are showing extreme prejudice by saying that buying a HDTV is "blowing" $1000. Some would say buying DVDs is blowing money. I disagree with both.
If you get a lot of pleasure and entertainment out of these things it isnt blown money IMHO.

I dont agree that DVD is only slightly better than HD. With DVD you still get those somewhat annoying scan lines because its only 480P that 720P and 1080i eliminates. And in terms of resolution DVD is only twice VHS resolution (full screen) and about 2.5 times the resolution with anamorphic. Of course DVD is much better than VHS in other parameters. But 1080i HD is SIX TIMES the resolution of DVD so with the very best TVs the difference between DVD and HD will be quite noticable but this is in the long run because right now very few HDTVs even come close to being able to display 1080i at full resolution. In other words you might not think HD is much better DVD now but the gap will widen with better sets and transfers in the future.

With reference transfers, yes. Older, B-transfers are another story.

im actually waiting for the LG dvd upconverter coming out in may... the one with the vaccum loading slot...finally dvds will be crisp!

I have only seen scan lines on two dvds -- older, poorer transfers.
However, I've seen no scan lines at all on any other 480p material. I guess it might depend how close you sit. I have a 57" Sony and I'm around 11 feet away.


How is it six times more? Also, why do only a few HDTV's come close to displaying full 1080i?

Side Note: Did anyone catch any of the Hawaii documentary on the HD Discovery Channel tonight? WOW!

Christ, this thread reeks of snobbery.
Yes, I have an HDTV, a 57 inch Hitachi 3 months out of the box. I also have HD services. I watch occasional broadcasts and they look great. Unfortunately they aren't nearly proliferous enough, even after all these years of piddleassing around.
As for merely being 'satisfied' with standard DVDs in anamorphic OAR with DTS and 5.1 audio, thats not the case. I'm in love with it.
I won't be giving up my DVDs. What I will do is start buying HD discs once the hardware manufacturers have milked the hardcore fanboys to the point they're ready to get into the mainstream market and get serious about selling the format to the public. Thats not going to happen for a few years.
As I stated before, DVD should never have been some bridge format between tape and HD. HD broadcasting was to have been mandatory years ago but the FCC kept letting too many broadcasters off the hook. The result is more SD TVs on the market, lots of bastardized ones that are flat of screen but not HD of picture.....wider than tall but not truly widescreen. Telling Joe Everyday that his 2 year old 36 inch not-quite-HDTV is obsolete is now going to be that much harder to do as a result. They need to stop making them so when HD does flourish people will be better equipped; there is no GOOD reason for them to still be manufactured, as they are capable of rendering SD broadcasting as well as SD DVD.

Nope.

A few weeks ago when 24 had its season premiere on Sunday, I had a conflict with another show on HBO or Showtime (I can't remember which), that I normally watch in HD. So I ended up watching the west coast feed in SD. What is significant to me is that while initially I knew that I was watching the show in SD, I totally forgot that fact within a few seconds of the show starting. In other words, my enjoyment of the show was not diminished one bit by watching it in SD even though I could have waited a few days more and seen it in HD. That's the same way I feel about DVDs. Once I start watching, I get so immersed in the story that I'm not thinking about the picture quality or how it might be better in HD.

Saying that the HD picture is better than DVD so I should automatically buy into the HDDVD technology is not a valid argument. Of course it is better - I'll concede that - but at what cost? Is that cost something that I'm willing to pay? Right now the answer is no.

Sadly, I can't buy into every new wonder device the moment it is introduced into the market. I simply cannot afford to. I have to weigh each purchase I make vs what I will have to give up on in other areas. You might as well have asked, "Will the difference between DVDs and HDDVDs be worth having a smaller retirement fund, a cheaper house, or driving a lesser car?" Because that is what it boils down to.

I'll tell you what - when you get your HDDVD system set up just the way you want it, invite me over and we can enjoy it together. Later on we can take a ride in my Rolls-Royce. I'll even promise to bite my tongue so I don't tell you what a POS your car is and ask if you're losing interest in it now that you've ridden in a real car. rotfl

Great post, and one that echoes my sentiments. Kudos for not taking the low road with comments about how there really isn't a difference, it's not that good, DVD is better, yada yada.

I too won't drop a G on a new player, and one that could be obsolete within a few months. Also, while there will be a format war, it will be faster and more decisive than the SACD V DVDA "war" and whichever format wins will not be a niche product. The studios and manufacturers will see a new format through. They WANT a new format more than we do. And for those without HD sets, I am sure the players will downconvert to 480i for you. Slowly over the next few years the HD players will supplant the SDVD players in stores and then in homes.

If you do a little reading on the topic before making such statements, you would discover that HD-DVD is slated to SRP for LESS than comparable DVD (in Japan at least). The discs will be the same price.

And for the last fucking time: HD is to DVD what DVD was to VHS. The difference in PQ is STAGGERING when viewed on properly calibrated gear. You throw all legitamacy of your thoughts out the window when you say otherwise.

I use this argument all the time with friends of mine. I'll have a bunch of friends over to my place and watch HD broadcasts on my 65" HDTV over a nice higher-end audio setup. They will invariable mention the cost and how they wouldn't spend it.

I'll say back "You drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee, I drive a Cavalier", or "You have a wood shop in your garage", or "How much did you spend on that African Safari vacation last year". In each of these cases, my friends spent much more than I have for their hobbies or interests. I don't need to drive a $25K car, I just don't get any extra enjoyment over a $12K car. An African Safari at $10K would not be enjoyable for me at all, I'd rather see Yosemite or the Grand Canyon at 1/10th of the cost.

1. scan lines has nothing to do with the transfer so I dont know what your are talking about there, scan lines are caused by the display format and in the case of DVD the best is can do is 480P. On a large set or a even a smaller set viewed from close up these horizontal lines are visible artifiacts.
On cheap TVs sometimes they are very bad because the interlacing isnt 50-50 like it should be, but even on a high end set at 480P you can still see these lines if you get close enuff to the screen or get a big enuff screen from a fixed viewing sistance. 720P and 1080i formats make them virtually disappear and the image looks much more like film when watching a movie with no trace of scan lines. It must be noted that some sets upconvert the 480P of the DVD to 1080i but since there is still only 480 vertical pixels, the scan lines to not go away the way they do with true 720P or 1080i.

2. This seems to best the best kept "secret" in video. DVD has only 1/6 the resolution of 1080i HDTV. Its simple math DVD is 480x720 pixels which is close to about 350,000 pixels. 1080i is 1080x1920 which is slighter over 2 MILLION pixels. The pixel ratio is exactly 6 to one. More pixels means more resolution.

3. The reason why so few if any (actually I just heard there is a new Sharp LCD with true 1080x1920 pixels) HDTVs can actually display the full resolution of 1080i format is cost and technology. This is good and bad. The good news is the 1080i signal is so good that its better than the sets, the bad news is we cant see it fully yet. But the sets will improve and so will the film transfers so as good as the 1080i format is, it will only get better in the future.

4. I did see that documentary and its a good example of why I am not so thrilled with DVDs anymore. I want my DVDs to look as good and they dont.

The real answer to give these people is to ask them a question instead:

How much does it cost to own a HDTV per year?

Once you tell them the answer which is roughly about $100 - $500 per year
depending on how far you want to take the screen size, it becomes quite apparent that HDTV ownership is very inexpensive, so much so compared to all the other bills in life like mortgages and car payments etc, that buying a HDTV doesnt really prevent anyone from doing these other things in the first place. How is $100 a year going to affect ones choice of car or retirement quality? It isnt. So I think your reply is wrong, tell them they can buy the HDTV and STILL DO all these other things, thats how small the cost is...
We are talking as low as $1000 to get a nice HDTV not $10,000, and that one time purchase lasts for years and years and will get 1000's and 1000's of usage/pleasure out of it.

There is one thing the HDTV purchase WILL affect and that is the quality of
your life NOW, the viewing experience is much better and worth the very small annual cost.

You might be having the same experience I went thru. You are still on the euphoria high of seeing your DVDs with full quality they were meant to be seen & is still new to you and nothing wrong with that. There is also the distinct possiblity that your best 1080i picture is not as much better than DVD than it should be. I found that with my first HDTV monitior. But since I switched to the top line Sony XBR HDTV I am finding out the 1080i, with the very best transfers is so much better than DVD that I am losing interest in BUYING DVDs when I know I can see these movies on HD Cable with much better quality than the DVDs including nice things like widescreen and OAR.
I simply hate the idea of buying something I know is not as good as what I can see elsewhere. Thats backwards, before HDTV, when you bought a DVD it was better than the best SDTV broadcasts.

:up:

The DVD where I saw the scan lines was "48 Hours." I think DVD's that have poor color saturation, etc. makes scan lines be more noticable. They really were in this movie. There was one other movie which slips me. However, I see no trace of them on other 480p movies AT ALL -- as you mentioned, if I get up close, I can see them. But no issues on my Sony and from 11 feet back.

I'm proud to say that I am not one of the fools who invested in DVDs. I still use my trusty projector from the 60's.

Sure I may not get all the latest movies but you know what, there are a lot of movies on vhs that haven't made it to dvd. Lets not forget to mention all the amatuer pornography that you can't watch on your fancy dvd players because they are only shown on my projector.

Some people might question why I never got onto the whole "videotape train". The answer is simple: I heard that in the future movies would fit on a tiny disc. Why would I get something on tape that will degrade over time when I could get one of them space age movie discs that some people call dvds (even though the correct term is "space age movie discs".

While you may have thought that now is the time I would upgrade into the HDee-space age movie disc, you are wrong. In the future there will be holographic cube that play the reels of pornography stored in my underground bunker.

Let it be known now that I will be laughing at all of you when I am sitting at home watching holographic porn, drinking moonshine and having my harem of robot wives and dogs cooking me dinner while you poor poor people are stuck in the past with your HDee-space age movie discs that won't be so space age anymore.

http://forums.csbanana.com/images/sm...ndard/rofl.gif
How can you tell someone $100 when you yourself can't do it for $100. How much have you really spent on home entertainment in the past 10 years. Come on, be honest - include equipment, wiring, cabinets and stands, audio and video media, rentals, cable/satelitte fees, etc.

Thank you - you've made my point - and that is if you're going to spend your money in one area of your live, you're going to have to cut back in some other area. Everyone has different priorities. I used retirement, housing, and cars as an example, it could be anything.

Did anyone here spend $500,000 on their home theater? Can I see a show of hands? If you didn't you're missing out on something. There's something better out there that you don't have.

What? I'm being absurd, you say? Exactly. There's a point of diminishing returns that only you can determine for yourself. You just happened to get there before you spent $500,000. So what if you only want to spend $100,000 - if you're happy with a lesser system, that's just fine with me.

You folks really crack me up sometimes. Almost all of us here have better home theater systems than 95% (or more) of the population out there and we're quibbling over the final 5%.

The average price I buy a movie DVD for is under $10 (I buy a lot of them used). The day you can tell me how to get HD-DVDs (new or used) for $10 I will take back everything I said and publicly admit to my error.

Well Sapien, I work for a living. I spent close to $2000 on this puppy and it's gonna have to do. This isn't simply my 'first' HD monitor, it's the one that's gonna be in my living room for several years to come. As for your equation of how inexpensive an HDTV is, yeah, $100 is right.......IF someone gets 10 years out of a $1000 set. You recommend that people run out and buy an HDTV right now, but then elaborate on the inadeqacies of much of the HD equipment on the market. If they're going to need to upgrade their inadequate HD set for a better one a few scant years from now that $100 per year average goes to hell in a handbasket.

My average is in a similar range, and let me ask how you got there? Do you buy used from rentals? CH? For the sake of your argument, you can't go by the price YOU pay but the SRP since there are no discs to even get deals on. There will be deals on the new formats, and boards like this will help those bargain hunters among us take advantage.

Most everyone I know pays $15-$20 for new releases and are thrilled when they get a DVD for $15. I won't pay more than $10. But I also understand that the time I spend pursuing these deals is a valuable commodity.

The bottom line is this: You intimated that there will be a price increase in media with these new formats, when every bit of news says that they will come in comparably (or in the case of Japan, lesser) priced. You are comparing apples with oranges.

I argued this point in another thread, it is no use to argue with hifi. If you do not think HDTV is the best thing since sliced bread and you don't feel everyone is going to run right out and get HD-DVD, he will tell you your opinion is wrong. A nicer picture, basically what HDTV is all about (yes I know audio and other things are improved), is just not worth it to most people, even here in the forum we have lots of people that have not got HD sets, and probably will not for some time. I personnally care more about what I am watching than how clear it is on the screen. If I want to see something old not on DVD, I will pop in a VHS. I guess hifi will just wait till its on HDTV or not watch it. The $1800 I spent last month so that I could watch the Daytona 500 in HD was no small decision, especially since HD service is costing me around $30 a month more than I was paying as well. I had to wedge $150 (to pay for the set and programming) a month into my budget for quite some time to pay for it. Not $100 - $500 a year, but a month. I now have HD, but the channels suck for the most part so I watch SD channels and DVDs more than HD. At some point, HD may garner more of my attention, my Voom upgrade next week may do it, but I am not counting on it (mainly trying to escape Comcast). Oh, I figure I will buy another new set no later than 5 years from now (10 years - yeah right - I am 25 and personnaly I am on television 4 --> 19 - 27 - 32 - 57 widescreen HD RPTV - next will be an HD projector system).

Every niche has their "gearheads"... people who need to have the absolute max. Max horsepower, max MHz, max Watts, max megapixels, max screensize, max lines of resolution... whatever. Home Theatre is no different.

That's all well and good, but that is different than the practical application of technology. The two groups have different priorities... one priority isn't better than the other, just different.

Consider the person in the market for a new TV... as one can purchase a 32" HDTV from Walmart for about $600 today (and better deals if one knows where to look), I can think of no good reason for that person to not purchase one. True, this expense may be beyond the means of some, but it's a pretty sweet price for many consumers and those prices are only coming down. It won't be long before SD-only sets are a thing of the past.

HD programming is not as broad as I'd like to see it, but neither is it too narrow to enjoy. I don't get 400 channels in HD like I do in SD, but in reality there are only a few SD channels that don't have HD counterparts that I watch regularly (Comedy Central, E!, IFC, Sundance, CNN). Nearly all major network prime-time programming, all premium movie channels, ESPN, PBS are available in HD, as well as HD-specific channels like HDnet, HD Movienet, and Discovery HD Theater. Whether or not HD mandates are extended another few years, there's quite a wealth of excellent HD programming to choose from and more everyday.

DVD offered certain advantages over VHS beyond better picture/sound quality due to being a digital medium, but in terms of picture quality alone, the difference between 480P DVD and 1080i HDTV is much greater than the difference in resolution between DVD and VHS. This is not a minor improvement notable only to a subset of videophiles. A quick A/B between, say, the Super Bowl in SD vs. the Super Bowl in HD causes the jaws of even the least tech savvy friends of mine to drop to the floor. Sure, some people will goggle and still not care that much (and the difference is less noticeable on smaller monitors), but given the fact that costs continue to drop quickly while broadcasts (and soon HD-DVD and Blu-ray) continue to expand, the conversion to HD seems assured and inevitable. I certainly wouldn't argue that everyone should upgrade immediately, but I'd wager that you will certainly, and probably sooner than you think.

The one thought I'd leave you with is this... if you're in the market for a new monitor, the most foolish thing you can do is throw away money on a SD-only set. If you don't feel the need to upgrade or replace your TV, then sit back and watch the prices drop... until you can't stand it any longer!

I agree with that--if you need a new tv, go ahead and get an HD-compatible one; if you don't really 'need' one, wait a bit for prices to drop even more.