Lesson learned, and my apologies to Mr. Hinkle. I've deleted my posts from this thread and suggest that Terrell, Mr. Lowrey and others with off-topic posts do the same.

Ditto. Just finished deleting mine as well. And again, here is the link to the "discussion" thread:

http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthr...ighlight=vader

All my non-related posts are gone.

That was kind of dumb. It must have taken you a while to write it, too.

Oh really? Here's a review of the new THX-1138 from Harry Knowles' site:



George Lucas, where did our love go? STAR WARS was probably the single most important experience of my youth, the movie that got me interested in filmmaking. From this single flick I developed a voracious appetite for cinema from all over the world, no matter what the genre, as long as it was good, interesting, unique or special in some way. Not even the diminished returns of the numerous sequels have quashed my determination to receive a joy of some kind from each and every entry in the series, as I’ve always been able to find at least a spark or a moment of inspiration tucked away in the heart of all of them. When the time came for me to go back and examine your previous works, such as AMERICAN GRAFFITTI and THX-1138 it was rewarding to discover that you were in fact a legitimate director who was capable of working with actors on material that was both intriguing and challenging. Like another American original, George Romero, you not only wrote and directed your films, you even served as your own editor, which added yet another dimension of personal signature on the work, another level of authorship that marked the rugged individuality of your early films which were trendsetters in their own, special way.

THX-1138 (1970) has been a special favorite for me. In the midst of all the usual dystopian paranoia and sci-fi trappings you were able to shoehorn a level of self-aware and pitch black humor that raised the film far above the standard, humorless and straight-laced dunderheaded science fiction of the time. Sure, 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY (1968) may have graced the screens two years earlier and changed the shape of speculative films to come for all time, but THX-1138 brought the future to us in a palpable way that Kubrick’s attempt to drag us kicking-and-screaming into his future could not. The layering of sound and image was richly experimental in both tone and it’s attempt to tell a fairly linear story in as non-linear a way as possible while still maintaining coherency. The committed performances of all the performers and the truly striking choices as concerns camera composition makes even the most potentially mundane moment feel special and “futuristic” even as two people sit on the floor of a bare room and embrace (as David Cronenberg’s STEREO and CRIMES OF THE FUTURE shorts also do). The melding of sound and image grabs normalcy by the scruff of the neck and projects it head-first into the visionary future of a defamiliarized here and now.

But you had to go and f**k it all up, didn’t you? Seriously, pal; I don’t know who you’re hanging out with these days and how far they’ve allowed you to jam your head up your own ass, but you took the jewel of your empire and treated it like toilet paper after a particularly rough night of Taco Bell indulgence.

I’m referring of course to the Director’s Cut of THX-1138 I saw digitally projected last night for what I hope will be the only time I will ever have to suffer the indignity of watching a classic film gang-raped by underage hooligans in public.

It’s all over, George. I’ve been rooting for you ever since I heard you were restoring the damn thing. I remember hearing the first rumblings about changes being made and CGI effects being added to open things up a bit, but mentally I stood by your side and said to myself that you’re a smart guy and that since this was your first feature and (to me, arguably) your best film, the choices you made would be tasteful and augment what was already there. And when the first frame grabs of the changes were leaked, I balked at a few of the decisions reached, while other images raised an eyebrow and made me think that some improvements might actually be made. So it was with that (relatively) open mind that I excitedly attended the screening last night.

As the screening began, and the first images of THX-1138 unfolded with a sharpness of image and clarity of soundtrack that I’ve never heard before, I was elated as I noticed little details in the frame that I’d never seen before and also picked-up on some dialogue that had always been just a little bit to muddy for me to decipher. You really had me going there, George; even the first epic CGI shots of a grotesquely overpopulated future world, which were intrusive to someone who knows the film as well as I, were forgiven and shrugged off as an unnecessary but not horrifying addition. I felt good about myself and my ability to adjust my expectations, to trust in you as an artist who still had some integrity and not just some desiccated old-man running an empire on autopilot; not some King Lear, victim to the whims of his own infirmities and the connivings of his underlings.

But then, suddenly, when LUH (Maggie McOmie) tells THX (Robert Duvall) she thinks everyone is watching them as they engage in illegal drug evasion and sexuality, you really do cut to a series of faces that appear to be watching them (re-edited from a much more subtly evocative moment from the original version). And now SEN (Donald Pleasance) is watching them have sex on his viewscreen as well?!? Could you please connect the dots for us any more? Someone asleep in the balcony might have missed that. Worst of all, defying the wonderfully paranoid logic of the original version just to make a plot point more clear for today’s “dumber” audience, when THX turns in SEN for his crimes, the act is now not the furtive scribbling of the illegality on a card in an empty hallway – an illicit act filled ripe with paranoia, as it was in the original version. Nope, now we get a CGI added viewscreen above the box THX is writing his card on so we can clearly see what he’s writing and the fact that he’s turning SEN in to the authorities. What was implied, very clearly, in the original is now punched into our heads with no subtlety whatsoever. Worst of all, it defies all logic for THX to turn in SEN if he knows that it’s not an anonymous process (as in the original, ala the boxes outside the firehouses in FAHRENHEIT 451); who in their right mind would issue a report on anyone if they knew they were being recorded while doing it?!?

There’s more; oh, so much more, so I’ll just jump to the other worst offenders. Like why, in god’s name, did a more elaborate scaffolding set-up (complete with extra people on it) for THX to drive through need to be added to the already exciting tunnel scene? Was it for the ha-ha moment where a worker jumps to safety just before it collapsed beneath him? Jeezus, did Greedo REALLY shoot first?!? And worst of all, the f**k-it-all-I-just-give-up moment of all film history for me (really, this was the moment that enraged me the most) was creating CGI versions of the shell-dwellers, which were originally played by little people, who briefly attack THX just before he escapes. They look awful, everyone in the audience (rightfully) laughed at it (not with it) and it’s the most jaw-droppingly embarrassing moment I’ve experienced in a movie theatre in a long time. And let’s face it, this summer has given all of us ample opportunity to feel embarrassed sitting in a theatre.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have been rooked, and let nobody tell you otherwise. The next time someone moans about how audiences have gotten stupider and that’s why it’s harder to see good, intelligent cinema at the local Cineplex anymore, you just point them right at this Director’s Cut of one of the smartest sci-fi films of it’s era and tell them (in your best Norma Desmond voice) that it’s the producers who got stupid, not the audiences.

(As a footnote, a super-special “f**k-you!” is in order for the MPAA, who saw fit to retrofit the film with an R-rating. What the hell is wrong with you idiots? No obscene language, brief frontal nudity from a hologram and some people in the far-off distance. It’s a sci-fi flick about people trying to escape the drugged-out stupor of their addicted society and you don’t want high school age kids to see this? Please just die, Jack Valenti, and soon. You are a further pox upon the movie-going public. Do everyone a favor and take a dip in the tar bath with the rest of the moronic ghouls you work with; consider it recycling, and the best thing you can do for the people of the United States.)

-Scooter McCrae

Anything from AICN, especially reviews that sound like they were written by talkbackers, should be ignored. I put a lot more stock in Bill Hunt of The Digital Bits, at least as far as opinions on this matter go.

But we just got through talking about non-related posts. Let's try and stick to the topic at hand and not go through what we went through before. This is the Star Wars DVD Information thread, not THX-1138 thread. I'm sure there will be one of those coming along.

Now he posted a review from Chewbacca himself.

This topic needs to be restarted, I think.

Bullshit.

PJ is not in any type of position to "green-light" anything. Clearly this release schedule is lucrative to the studio. I love the way the LOTR releases have been handled to death, but it ticks me off when someone chimes in "it was done for the fans!" Studios do it for one thing only: the almighty dollar.

Oh yes, the rant (not review) by some guy over on AICN. Sorry. This "review" has been pretty much laughed at by most serious fans of THX 1138.

If I recall, Bill Hunt, from thedigitalbits gave the new cut a quite different review. A more positive one. This guy from AICN sounds like a 15 year old who got the keys taken away from him.

I might consider that if I knew which posts were off-topic.

Also, I'd like to make one thing clear here. It seems like that when I make a comment about the "release the originals" folks, they get taken in a very personal way, in a way that seems like I don't care for their point of view. That's not true. I enjoy other points of view. But what I don't care for is that these same folks never seem to care about or for that matter take into account what the folks at LucasFilm (including Lucas) have said about these issues since. Mainly concerning the "theory" that the originals do not exist anymore.

I mean it's all starting to sound a lot like the continuous rantings of "Bush lied." And I'll leave that quote right there.

What I mean by that is that the constant drummings of "I want the originals" seems to be driven completely by emotion, rather than the cold hard facts of the matter. If indeed the originals do not exist as the folks at LucasFilm claim, then there's no amount of screaming that's gonna change it.

As far as some of the reasons why people don't like the changes, yes, I can understand some of them, but I have always been a person of logic. In that the good of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, if you will. So can we admit that the majority of the changes/enhancements/remasterings, are for the good, while there's a few things that are bad, like someone has said, the editing and the flow may seem disrupted, but the greater benefits of the changes outweight the effects of the bad, in my opinion.

i would easily give up
-the guy in the wampa suit
-the gratuitous eye candy fly overs on bespin
and even
-the windows on Bespin (a change i actually enjoyed and thought was well implemented)

just to get the Emperor/ Vader scene, the Shuttle line, and the original Boba voice overs re-instated.

those are clear negatives to this film now (not in and of themselves as much as a comparision to what the film was previously)
and no amount of 'nice' additions can 'balance it out' since what they were replacing weren't negatives to begin with.

Well the thread title is "Star Wars DVD information". Any post about THX-1138 is off topic.

In fact any post that does not contain "Star Wars DVD information" is off-topic.

Including this one.

I guess I'm in the minority -- I can't wait to see the changes. While some of them are major, I like the fact that they'll make the whole epic flow better. If I want to see it the original way, I can watch my VHS copies.

It just doesn't seem like a big deal to me. I don't feel violated or used or unappreciated.

Pretty obviously any post that discusses whether or not you like the changes made to the movies. But I suspect you know that, so I doubt you'll be deleting any of your off-topic posts.

Well considering that this thread is indeed titled Star Wars DVD information, one could assume, and I might add, correctly, that information, ie. changes, would be the main topic of the thread. And so with discussion on these changes, people's opinions on these changes are almost absolutely bound to follow the revelation of these changes. So I see any discussion of these changes as on-topic.

Now then, any discussion about THX 1138, and even the LOTR-EEs for that matter, are perhaps a bit off-topic, but who ever said making comarisons to other examples during debates was off-topic?

The whole issue here with the Star Wars (and THX) movies is that because they are older films, and in the words of John Kerry, seared into [their] brains, that any changes to them suddenly throw some people's brain into a tizzy. Now I say this because these same people don't seem to care about when newer movies get extended director's cuts, or director re-edits (as in the case of the new DareDevil DC), so I feel there's a bit of inconsistancy in the reasoning behind some of this vitriol towards the SW-SEs and the SW-"Special K" editions. I really hate inconsistancy. The only difference here is that the original versions are available on these newer movies, and they are not for the Star Wars movies. But if they don't exist (as Lucas has constantly claimed), then well, you know the answer to that.

So no, Mr. Salty, I won't delete my "off-topic" posts, because I'm a firm believer in free speech, and using examples of other similar cases to explain things in current debates is as American as apple-pie.

thank you

I think the point is Mike, that this was the thread to post WHAT changes we're supposed to expect as we get the information from wherever. That's why this got bumped up, because I posted links to the video caps of the new Jabba and Greedo scenes. The discussion of the pros and cons of said changes are in the thread that I've referenced to twice now. I guess I should've bumped that up too. No one's telling you not to discuss anything. Just that this was the wrong thread for it. That's why some of us cleaned up the clutter.

Can it be that most people don't give a shit about a Daredevil DC? Or that the original daredevil is available on DVD as well?

I dare you to point to message made by me where I said that since a director's cut is available, I don't care if an original version is available. In fact you will find that I have posted several times that I hoped the theaterical version of Aliens would find its way on DVD, even though I think the Director's Cut is the superior version.

I will say you have an "irrational" hatred towards people that merely think the original SW movies should be on DVD, and make up conspiracies in your head about those people.

It manifests itself in every thread, where you:
a.) Make some childish remark about all people that want SW fanslike "Luca$ sucks ASS" or
b.) Make up grand conspiracy theories - i.e. people are hypocritical or
c.) Resort to one line zingers like "irrational" or whatever when people say they prefer the originals.

Except, of course, when the thread starter specifically asked in the first post that such discussion be taken elsewhere.

The obvious difference is that in the examples you cite, the original versions of the films exist and can be readily purchased by anyone. Such is not the case with the "Star Wars" trilogy.

You're comparing the most loved trilogy in film history with DAREDEVIL??? Come on, man. Come on.

I thought most internet fanboys now consider LOTR the most loved trilogy in film history, and the Star Wars trilogy to be old news!

C'mon folks, let's move the off-topic stuff to the other thread. Yeah, I got in one last off-topic comment, but there's another thread this argument would be more relevant to.

missed this post earlier...


handled to death = one release of the theatrical version & one release of an extended cut (using material shot contmeporanelously with the original footage)?
as far as "doing it for the fans"- yes, New Line ponied up the dough for him to finish scenes, have the material scored , etc because they did expect to make money with the release.
you got me there.
and yes, PJ divided his time between getting the theatrical releases of the last two films hewn and overseeing the new edits to the EEs...and yeah, he probably did it solely or primarily for the almighty buck.

why else would he possibly do it?
its surely an alien concept to the Lucas-istas™, that a storyteller would expend energy & resources to release a version of his material more for the benefit of someone other than the studios heads & himself.

just because Lucas could be making more money than he is by releasing the (beloved) unaltered versions (in addtion to the ones he wants in the marketplace, but has chosen not to, does not make him some paragon of virtue.
his motivation is just as self-centered as anyone working for a paycheck.

and while you may label Jacksons remarks as bullshit, the only comments i have seen come out of Lucasland on the issue of fanbase and appreciation of, or acknowledgement of what they have contributed, is the all-time classic "this is not a democracy"

nothing along the lines of "we understand the enthusasim for the original versions, we understand why people want them, we will try to get them out in ___ years, but they exist in a disassembled form now and may take some time to recut. in the meantime Mr Lucas would like everyone to experience these and hope that you will get some enjoyment out of them in the mean-time...but we do realize there is a sizable group that would like the originals that have been a part of their lives for more than a quarter of a century, and we will look forward to fulfilling their desires as soon as we can"

they could have said something like that- not even given out a concrete date, or any other info, just worded something that said, "we recoginize you, we appreciate that we wouldn't have the opportunity to be making a big deal about these today if it weren't for the way you embraced these all those years ago, and we will try to service you in the future".

is that really beyond the pale to expect from someone angling to take my money for their product ?
it's really kind of amusing to see the way George has remolded what were big budget crowd pleasers into what are now vanity productions.

I can't wait anymore....."May the force be with me"

No, look. I don't have a hatred for anybody or their opinions on the matter. Should the originals be released? Sure, for those who want them, but what if, just what if, that what Lucas has been saying for the past, oh what is it now, 8 years, that the originals don't exist anymore from the raw film source. And if so, then continual petitions or arguments, for them are pointless.

It's like getting blood out of a turnip.

In other words, have you ever considered that why the originals aren't being released is because for the exact reason Lucas has stated?

The fact that you and your "originals" friends continue to think that I have some irrational intolerance or hatred towards your opinions is saying more about you than I. I am mearly trying to use logic and what we actually know to debate why they haven't been released, instead of your position where you say, "I think they should be released, simply because they should." Well, that's fine. But if they don't exist, then no amount of complaining, petitioning, etc. will ever get them released.

Let's say that I am a computer graphics artist. I paint a digital picture. I save it to disc and I release it. Then 20 years later, I go back to the same picture, change it, enhance it or do whatever I feel like with it. I then save over the only copy I had. The original no longer exists. Therefore, I can never ever re-release the original version. This is, I believe, what essentially happened during the initial SE restoration 8 years ago. Just the simple restoration forever changed the film. Quite frankly, I don't think you folks who want the originals release don't really understand what the films went through during the '97 SE process. It's as simple as that. I'm pretty sure they used the original film prints. Not some copy of them.

In order for the originals to be released today with an acceptable transfer, Lowry Digital would have to go back to the original film (if it still exists) and restore it. But if the films were in as bad of shape as they claimed in '96, then how much worse would they be today 8 years later?


I'm not using conspiracy theories here. I'm using logic and known facts. You can choose to accept that, or you can go on thinking that Lucas is lying to you that he has the originals locked away somewhere.

How much of the original film did they clean up 8 years ago ?

I was under the impression that they cleaned all of it prior to the special editions. That would then mean that it was cleaned, scanned, touched up on the computer, visual effects added and then printing back to film. The originals should in that case still exist.

We may never know (or believe) the real reason the originals are not being released but some of the reasons may be


A) They really do no longer exist (which would be a very sad day indeed)

B) George Lucus doesnt like them and doesnt want them to be seen

C) Hes holding off for a year or two so that we will have to double dip to get them (Hes a business man after all)