They Watermarked Bullwinkle! -or- Watch the Moose, Get the Shaft!
08-06-03, 08:09 PM
#51
DVD Talk Reviewer & TOAT Winner
I don't see how anyone can NOT notice it on TV shows- it especially ruins any dark scenes, and spoils the overall mood they may be trying to create. These should be getting a LOT more complaints from people than "Them thar black bars" on movies!
Do you "hardly notice" the picture quality of VHS as well??
Do you "hardly notice" the picture quality of VHS as well??
08-06-03, 08:14 PM
#52
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by evenswr
...and I admire your sincerity and devotion to purpose. I can't help thinking, though, that the message sent to the producers will be:
People hate Bullwinkle.
Oh, well. I own a couple pan-n-scan discs, so who am I to talk?
...and I admire your sincerity and devotion to purpose. I can't help thinking, though, that the message sent to the producers will be:
People hate Bullwinkle.
Oh, well. I own a couple pan-n-scan discs, so who am I to talk?
Come on guys, it's friggin' ROCKY AND BULLWINKLE. Leave it alone already.
08-06-03, 08:15 PM
#53
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Originally posted by StrTrkker
I sure hope the upcoming Looney Tunes set doesnt have the WB logo inserted into the bottom corner or I will be pissed for sure...
I sure hope the upcoming Looney Tunes set doesnt have the WB logo inserted into the bottom corner or I will be pissed for sure...
They had better not. I hadnt even thought about this. There would be some massive death and destruction going on if this happend. Nice thread title by the way Kabong and nice joke by Tarantino.
08-06-03, 08:16 PM
#54
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by Pac-Rat
Like others, I don't get how this will help. It seems akin to putting rubber stamp on a painting. Anyways, Rocky & Bullwinkle seems more like a "cult" show, with a limited but loyal following, and not something that would have a large base of bootlegs.
Like others, I don't get how this will help. It seems akin to putting rubber stamp on a painting. Anyways, Rocky & Bullwinkle seems more like a "cult" show, with a limited but loyal following, and not something that would have a large base of bootlegs.
08-06-03, 09:46 PM
#56
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Originally posted by Alan Smithee
"I hope you're happy when Sony decides to not do anymore seasons because of poor sales."
I WILL be happy- maybe then they won't do anymore discs with onscreen crap!
"I hope you're happy when Sony decides to not do anymore seasons because of poor sales."
I WILL be happy- maybe then they won't do anymore discs with onscreen crap!
Originally Posted by feldon23
Guess these people have never heard of Digimarc. They could EASILY encode 1 frame every 10 minutes with Digimarc and even thru VHS copies, it can be detected. All without affecting the picture quality.
Not that anything should be watermarked, but if they are going to, why not do it digitally?
Guess these people have never heard of Digimarc. They could EASILY encode 1 frame every 10 minutes with Digimarc and even thru VHS copies, it can be detected. All without affecting the picture quality.
Not that anything should be watermarked, but if they are going to, why not do it digitally?
08-06-03, 10:13 PM
#57
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
I can't even think of how many times I don't notice the watermark on TV shows. Most of the time it's clear and doesn't obscure the picture anyway. While I am not exactly thrilled about the watermark on the DVD, I doubt it will become an issue for future releases, and I am willing to bet that I will hardly notice it when it comes on anyway. If not buying a great series because of something like this, then I feel sorry for you.
As for the matter that "It's just a bug" and that I'm stupid for being vexed over the whole thing - why do you buy letterboxed movies? Because that's what the director intended you to see. Do you think that Jay Ward wanted a transparent RB to be grafted into the corner of everything he did?
And more importantly, this sets a bad precedent. Think back 15 years ago when the USA network first started putting their TV bug in the corner of everything they showed. Nobody made a fuss and now it's EVERYWERE! If we don't nip this in the bud, who knows - something similar might happen to DVD.
Do you really want Casablanca with a transparent WB in the corner someday?
And more importantly, this sets a bad precedent. Think back 15 years ago when the USA network first started putting their TV bug in the corner of everything they showed. Nobody made a fuss and now it's EVERYWERE! If we don't nip this in the bud, who knows - something similar might happen to DVD.
Do you really want Casablanca with a transparent WB in the corner someday?
08-06-03, 11:28 PM
#58
DVD Talk Legend
Well, I've been thinking this over for a few days since I first saw it on the DVDFile forum, and I've decided to not get this set. As I've said in the past, I have so many titles on my wishlist, I look for any excuse to take off titles. Sadly, Rocky and Bullwinkle was removed.
I will also be letting the company know why I'm not getting it. This is a piss poor way to treat a product when there are several other, less offensive alternatives.
I sincerely hope they see the light and reissue this without the bugs, I would love to own this show on DVD.
I will also be letting the company know why I'm not getting it. This is a piss poor way to treat a product when there are several other, less offensive alternatives.
I sincerely hope they see the light and reissue this without the bugs, I would love to own this show on DVD.
08-07-03, 12:25 AM
#59
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What bothers me is their reasoning behind the watermark...
"Unfortunately, over the past twenty years "No Goodniks" have pirated the Jay Ward library and sold unauthorized videos."
Isn't EVERY movie/TV show in danger of being pirated?
"More than one million dollars was invested by the Ward family to restore the film masters"
EVERY DVD is an investment to someone. DVDs like Star Wars Episode II cost many millions of dollars to produce, and there's no visible watermark there.
It's ironic that they've gone to this measure "to protect the Jay Ward legacy" when it's actually causing certain people, including myself, to decide against purchasing this DVD. I was teetering before reading this post.
The bootlegs I've seen (especially of old cartoons), are usually TV shows and movies that have not been made commercially available. Otherwise, why would you want to buy a bootleg, especially since most of them are inferior in quality and sell for around 25+ dollars? At a certain Sci-Fi convention I go to annually, there's a huge bootleg DVD booth. Each year the inventory changes according to what's been released. As a matter of fact, they practically give away the remaining inventory of recent officially released material. They've had Rocky and Bulllwinkle in the past and I would bet that they won't be selling them next year. (except possibly the later seasons)
I sure hope this trend doesn't continue, especially considering the invisible watermark option.
"Unfortunately, over the past twenty years "No Goodniks" have pirated the Jay Ward library and sold unauthorized videos."
Isn't EVERY movie/TV show in danger of being pirated?
"More than one million dollars was invested by the Ward family to restore the film masters"
EVERY DVD is an investment to someone. DVDs like Star Wars Episode II cost many millions of dollars to produce, and there's no visible watermark there.
It's ironic that they've gone to this measure "to protect the Jay Ward legacy" when it's actually causing certain people, including myself, to decide against purchasing this DVD. I was teetering before reading this post.
The bootlegs I've seen (especially of old cartoons), are usually TV shows and movies that have not been made commercially available. Otherwise, why would you want to buy a bootleg, especially since most of them are inferior in quality and sell for around 25+ dollars? At a certain Sci-Fi convention I go to annually, there's a huge bootleg DVD booth. Each year the inventory changes according to what's been released. As a matter of fact, they practically give away the remaining inventory of recent officially released material. They've had Rocky and Bulllwinkle in the past and I would bet that they won't be selling them next year. (except possibly the later seasons)
I sure hope this trend doesn't continue, especially considering the invisible watermark option.
08-07-03, 01:17 AM
#62
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Roll all you want. Obvious alteration of the original is _bad_. I thought I was the only one annoyed by station logo bugs, but I guess I am not. Those are semi-tolerable, much like commercials, because the content is free. When I have to pay for the content, I want it to be presented like I want. Original aspect ratio, made from best available prints, and no logos floating around distracting me and obscuring something in the original.
If Coke paid part of production costs for, say, Star Wars and that payment sped up the release of the film, would you mind if there was a dynamic ribbon (tm) (c) and "Coke" (tm) (c) being flashed on the screen whenever one of the character used the Force (tm) (c)? How about digitally mapping product logos onto lightsabers? Hey, discs with commercials are better than no discs, right? (Feel free to substitute a film you'd _really_ like to see on DVD for Star Wars).
If Coke paid part of production costs for, say, Star Wars and that payment sped up the release of the film, would you mind if there was a dynamic ribbon (tm) (c) and "Coke" (tm) (c) being flashed on the screen whenever one of the character used the Force (tm) (c)? How about digitally mapping product logos onto lightsabers? Hey, discs with commercials are better than no discs, right? (Feel free to substitute a film you'd _really_ like to see on DVD for Star Wars).
08-07-03, 09:01 AM
#64
The bottom line is that this product is owned by the Jay Ward family or whoever and it is their right to put the product that they own out as they see fit. You may not like the way they put it out, in which case don't buy it. That is your right,
They are saying they put put the watermark on the show to stop
illegal copies. Who are we to say that this is not a problem or they are lying about the reason they put the watermark on.
You can express your dissatisfaction with this and let them know it but I see no reason to accuse the owners of lying or of anything else.
They have a product which they hope people want and they hope to make money from. If the product does not sell well , perhaps they will remove the watermark but more likely they just won't release additional seasons.
They are saying they put put the watermark on the show to stop
illegal copies. Who are we to say that this is not a problem or they are lying about the reason they put the watermark on.
You can express your dissatisfaction with this and let them know it but I see no reason to accuse the owners of lying or of anything else.
They have a product which they hope people want and they hope to make money from. If the product does not sell well , perhaps they will remove the watermark but more likely they just won't release additional seasons.
08-07-03, 09:16 AM
#65
DVD Talk Legend
How exactly does a watermark prevent bootlegs?
Bootleggers will just sell copies with the watermark on them. Heck, if they sell bootlegs of films still in theatres I'm sure that a little watermark on an obscure title won't deter them.
Watermarks are annoying and not effective. Those reasons alone are enough to boycott the product.
"Scaring" people into buying the current defective disc (because if it doesn't sell well they won't produce any more seasons) is not a very good reason.
The only guarantee is, that if this defective set sells well, they'll absolutely have no incentive to remove the watermark for the next set... (because the presence of the watermark didn't hurt sales.)
Bottom line... if you like watermarks, then buy the set... if not, then don't.
I'll pass on this set until the "problem" is corrected.
Bootleggers will just sell copies with the watermark on them. Heck, if they sell bootlegs of films still in theatres I'm sure that a little watermark on an obscure title won't deter them.
Watermarks are annoying and not effective. Those reasons alone are enough to boycott the product.
"Scaring" people into buying the current defective disc (because if it doesn't sell well they won't produce any more seasons) is not a very good reason.
The only guarantee is, that if this defective set sells well, they'll absolutely have no incentive to remove the watermark for the next set... (because the presence of the watermark didn't hurt sales.)
Bottom line... if you like watermarks, then buy the set... if not, then don't.
I'll pass on this set until the "problem" is corrected.
08-07-03, 10:58 AM
#66
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Originally posted by darkside
I'm personally sick of people bitching about packaging, inserts and disc art, however this is another matter.
When the actually movie or show you are buying is screwed up I think it is something to be upset about. Granted a bug is not the worst thing that can happen, but it is a trend I would hate to see continue.
For instance if I brought home Casablanca and starting watching it and a WB logo was in the corner I would return it. Some people my not consider a Bullwinkle cartoon that big a deal, but when you pay for something you should at least be able to watch it without advertising or company logos appearing on the screen during the show.
Sucks and I certainly hope it doesn't become a trend. I hardly watch TV anymore because I'm sick of all the banners and pop up crap all over the screen.
I'm personally sick of people bitching about packaging, inserts and disc art, however this is another matter.
When the actually movie or show you are buying is screwed up I think it is something to be upset about. Granted a bug is not the worst thing that can happen, but it is a trend I would hate to see continue.
For instance if I brought home Casablanca and starting watching it and a WB logo was in the corner I would return it. Some people my not consider a Bullwinkle cartoon that big a deal, but when you pay for something you should at least be able to watch it without advertising or company logos appearing on the screen during the show.
Sucks and I certainly hope it doesn't become a trend. I hardly watch TV anymore because I'm sick of all the banners and pop up crap all over the screen.
08-07-03, 11:34 AM
#68
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I own the set and am happy with it BUT after watching many episodes do honestly find the watermark a bit annoying. My eyes ARE drawn to it whenever it is on. Thankfully, it does not come on at the beginning of every little short skit and theme song for the different segments (fractured fairy tales, sherman and peabody, etc.)
Still, I don't understand how this would scare bootleggers away. Do they think that a bootlegger would see the watermark and think "That release is crap, it has a stupid watermark on it! Why would I want to copy that junk???" If so, then why would they think that the actual buyer of the product would like it then?
Still, I don't understand how this would scare bootleggers away. Do they think that a bootlegger would see the watermark and think "That release is crap, it has a stupid watermark on it! Why would I want to copy that junk???" If so, then why would they think that the actual buyer of the product would like it then?
08-07-03, 12:15 PM
#70
DVD Talk Gold Edition
OK, yes it's slightly annoying, but this is WAY better than what Buena Vista did to the cartoons in the early 90s when they put them on VHS and laserdisc.
The episodes were "collapsed" in the sense that they combined two or more to fit a specific time frame. What that means is that they took out many of the end and beginning episode caps so that it looked like one episode.
There was also editing - the Fractured Fairy Tales episode with Red Riding Hood in the Hollywoods has a reference to a racial slur that was removed.
Buy this set - despite the few seconds of watermarking, the alteration of the original Rocky Show signs and some of the music (supposedly restored to its original score), the compilation is the BEST that has ever existed!
The episodes were "collapsed" in the sense that they combined two or more to fit a specific time frame. What that means is that they took out many of the end and beginning episode caps so that it looked like one episode.
There was also editing - the Fractured Fairy Tales episode with Red Riding Hood in the Hollywoods has a reference to a racial slur that was removed.
Buy this set - despite the few seconds of watermarking, the alteration of the original Rocky Show signs and some of the music (supposedly restored to its original score), the compilation is the BEST that has ever existed!
08-07-03, 01:28 PM
#71
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Well, I called the 800 number this morning. It's more of a defective disc return line than a "Bitch at the DVD publisher" line, but when I outlined the nature of the problem the CSR on the other end said "That sucks" and processed the request anyway. All Sony will do is swap out the disc for a brand new one - and since the whole run was mastered that way, the exchange wont do any good. But I might enclose a letter in the prepaid mailer outlining my position.
I'll probably return the set and track down an un-watermarked bootleg copy. And that's pretty damn ironic - here's this anti-bootleg device that's further promoting the sale of bootlegs. Oh well - Sony's loss. . . .
***EDIT*** So the one thing that all the people claiming that the watermark is no big deal have yet to explain to my satisfaction - if altering the vision of the creator (via the watermark) is ok, then why do you consider altering the vision of the creator (via pan and scan) to be such an abomination? Anyone care to elaborate on that hypocritical stance?
I'll probably return the set and track down an un-watermarked bootleg copy. And that's pretty damn ironic - here's this anti-bootleg device that's further promoting the sale of bootlegs. Oh well - Sony's loss. . . .
***EDIT*** So the one thing that all the people claiming that the watermark is no big deal have yet to explain to my satisfaction - if altering the vision of the creator (via the watermark) is ok, then why do you consider altering the vision of the creator (via pan and scan) to be such an abomination? Anyone care to elaborate on that hypocritical stance?
08-07-03, 01:36 PM
#72
DVD Talk Hero
Agreed. Aside from the watermark issue, the quality of this set is awesome. I've only watched the first program on disc 1 so far, but was blown away...particularly by the audio. I'm so used to the scratchy, faded tv broadcasts that the DVD quality just blew me away. I had to readjust to the voices as they didn't seem "quite right" since I could clearly hear them now.
It's also fantastic to witness the early incarnations of Boris and Natasha, who are drawn a bit differently than the figures we've come to know. And the story of how Mr. Peabody met and adopted Sherman! I never knew there was such an expository tale. Great great stuff.
To those who are bothered by the watermark enough not to buy it in the hopes that it will get the producers to change their mind. You do realize that your plan only works if you contact the producers and tell them why you are NOT buying their set, right?
It's also fantastic to witness the early incarnations of Boris and Natasha, who are drawn a bit differently than the figures we've come to know. And the story of how Mr. Peabody met and adopted Sherman! I never knew there was such an expository tale. Great great stuff.
To those who are bothered by the watermark enough not to buy it in the hopes that it will get the producers to change their mind. You do realize that your plan only works if you contact the producers and tell them why you are NOT buying their set, right?
08-07-03, 02:41 PM
#73
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by Numanoid
To those who are bothered by the watermark enough not to buy it in the hopes that it will get the producers to change their mind. You do realize that your plan only works if you contact the producers and tell them why you are NOT buying their set, right?
To those who are bothered by the watermark enough not to buy it in the hopes that it will get the producers to change their mind. You do realize that your plan only works if you contact the producers and tell them why you are NOT buying their set, right?
I'm actually starting to think there's enough of us making a racket to actually send them a message. The power of the Internet!
08-07-03, 03:15 PM
#74
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Originally posted by Numanoid
Agreed. Aside from the watermark issue, the quality of this set is awesome. I've only watched the first program on disc 1 so far, but was blown away...particularly by the audio. I'm so used to the scratchy, faded tv broadcasts that the DVD quality just blew me away. I had to readjust to the voices as they didn't seem "quite right" since I could clearly hear them now.
It's also fantastic to witness the early incarnations of Boris and Natasha, who are drawn a bit differently than the figures we've come to know. And the story of how Mr. Peabody met and adopted Sherman! I never knew there was such an expository tale. Great great stuff.
To those who are bothered by the watermark enough not to buy it in the hopes that it will get the producers to change their mind. You do realize that your plan only works if you contact the producers and tell them why you are NOT buying their set, right?
Agreed. Aside from the watermark issue, the quality of this set is awesome. I've only watched the first program on disc 1 so far, but was blown away...particularly by the audio. I'm so used to the scratchy, faded tv broadcasts that the DVD quality just blew me away. I had to readjust to the voices as they didn't seem "quite right" since I could clearly hear them now.
It's also fantastic to witness the early incarnations of Boris and Natasha, who are drawn a bit differently than the figures we've come to know. And the story of how Mr. Peabody met and adopted Sherman! I never knew there was such an expository tale. Great great stuff.
To those who are bothered by the watermark enough not to buy it in the hopes that it will get the producers to change their mind. You do realize that your plan only works if you contact the producers and tell them why you are NOT buying their set, right?
08-07-03, 03:36 PM
#75
DVD Talk Reviewer & TOAT Winner
I think I'll make some copies from my Rocky And Bullwinkle SelectaVision videodiscs on my new DVD recorder. There's no bugs on those, though there are a few skips 
Having it on for just a few seconds sounds tolerable, at least on regular TV, but this just sets a bad precedent that if accepted can only get worse, just as it did with regular TV. I don't even buy discs from Something Weird because of the bugs on their "extras", unless I REALLY want the actual movie that's on it which they show unbugged (I would've bought ALL their drive-in discs if the trailers didn't have the SWV on them!)
Putting anything on a movie (instead of a TV show) would be completely unacceptable- I didn't even like the old HBO Video VHS titles that had a "CC" indicator at the beginning of the movies.
Having it on for just a few seconds sounds tolerable, at least on regular TV, but this just sets a bad precedent that if accepted can only get worse, just as it did with regular TV. I don't even buy discs from Something Weird because of the bugs on their "extras", unless I REALLY want the actual movie that's on it which they show unbugged (I would've bought ALL their drive-in discs if the trailers didn't have the SWV on them!)
Putting anything on a movie (instead of a TV show) would be completely unacceptable- I didn't even like the old HBO Video VHS titles that had a "CC" indicator at the beginning of the movies.