Format war getting messier... Dell and HP side with Sony's Blu-Ray HD-DVD Technology
#1
DVD Talk Special Edition
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 1,014
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Format war getting messier... Dell and HP side with Sony's Blu-Ray HD-DVD Technology
Reuters reports on the latest in the HD-DVD format war:
Some background:
DVD Forum Chooses NEC/Toshiba Blue Laser Technology
EETimes article: Forum sets course for blue-laser DVD standard
Afterdawn article on same topic
Is everyone really going to rebuy all their movies in HD-DVD?
AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - U.S. computer makers Hewlett-Packard and Dell said on Monday they would support a new DVD standard with much higher storage capacity which is being promoted by 10 electronics companies.
Dell and H-P, the world's largest personal computer makers, said they would support the so-called Blu-ray DVD technology, which allows for recording of up to four hours of high-definition television on a single disc.
"H-P believes Blu-ray Disc is the most consumer-friendly technology choice for the next generation of removable storage," John Romano, senior vice president at H-P, said in a statement.
Gerry Smith, vice president of peripheral development and procurement at Dell, said the technology was an obvious choice given the additional storage capacity offered and the broad support from consumer electronics and PC manufacturers and large entertainment companies.
Blu-ray is competing with another new blue laser-based DVD technology from Japan's Toshiba and NEC.
Blue lasers have a shorter wavelength than the current red lasers, which allows for a thinner light beam which can read and write smaller bits of information on a disc.
Among the 10 companies promoting Blu-Ray are Hitachi, LG Electronics, Philips Electronics, Sony and Thomson.
Although the support of the two main PC makers is a shot in the arm of the Blu-ray group, the rival technology from Toshiba and NEC won the support of the DVD Forum in November.
The DVD Forum is the alliance of some 220 DVD companies, including electronics and media firms.
The DVD industry has seen other format wars. There are five different rewriteable red laser technologies on the market, many of which will not play discs recorded with a competing standard.
Crucial in the blue laser battle will be the support of the Hollywood movie studios, which are expected to adopt just one standard for pre-recorded (read-only) blue laser DVDs.
"The BD-ROM (read-only) format, developed in collaboration with Hollywood studios and the IT industry, is expected to be available early 2004, allowing for BD-ROM products to be available by the end of 2005," the Blu-ray group said.
Dell and H-P, the world's largest personal computer makers, said they would support the so-called Blu-ray DVD technology, which allows for recording of up to four hours of high-definition television on a single disc.
"H-P believes Blu-ray Disc is the most consumer-friendly technology choice for the next generation of removable storage," John Romano, senior vice president at H-P, said in a statement.
Gerry Smith, vice president of peripheral development and procurement at Dell, said the technology was an obvious choice given the additional storage capacity offered and the broad support from consumer electronics and PC manufacturers and large entertainment companies.
Blu-ray is competing with another new blue laser-based DVD technology from Japan's Toshiba and NEC.
Blue lasers have a shorter wavelength than the current red lasers, which allows for a thinner light beam which can read and write smaller bits of information on a disc.
Among the 10 companies promoting Blu-Ray are Hitachi, LG Electronics, Philips Electronics, Sony and Thomson.
Although the support of the two main PC makers is a shot in the arm of the Blu-ray group, the rival technology from Toshiba and NEC won the support of the DVD Forum in November.
The DVD Forum is the alliance of some 220 DVD companies, including electronics and media firms.
The DVD industry has seen other format wars. There are five different rewriteable red laser technologies on the market, many of which will not play discs recorded with a competing standard.
Crucial in the blue laser battle will be the support of the Hollywood movie studios, which are expected to adopt just one standard for pre-recorded (read-only) blue laser DVDs.
"The BD-ROM (read-only) format, developed in collaboration with Hollywood studios and the IT industry, is expected to be available early 2004, allowing for BD-ROM products to be available by the end of 2005," the Blu-ray group said.
DVD Forum Chooses NEC/Toshiba Blue Laser Technology
EETimes article: Forum sets course for blue-laser DVD standard
Afterdawn article on same topic
Is everyone really going to rebuy all their movies in HD-DVD?
#3
DVD Talk Special Edition
Join Date: May 1999
Location: USA
Posts: 1,953
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This make me VERY happy! I am pissed at the DVD Forum for caving under the pressure and selecting the other fomat that has less capacity! Luckily, just because the DVD Forum adopts one format doesn't mean the other won't be produced. I think we will get both formats and it will be a matter of which one offer the best quality that will win out (unlike the VHS/Beta format war). Since Blue-Ray hold a pretty good amount more space it should look better with less compression and more room for extras.
#4
DVD Talk Special Edition
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 1,014
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Current DVDs have up to 4.7GB capacity on a single-layer disc and 9.4GB on a dual layer disc.
Blu-Ray discs have up to 27-30GB capacity on a single-layer disc, and 50 GB on a dual-layer disc.
AOD (Toshiba/NEC) discs have up to 15GB on single layer, and 30 GB on a dual-layer disc.
But the real question is, how much capacity is really necessary on each format for a quality HD presentation?
HD-DVD resolution is 1920x1080. Just as with regular DVD players there will be interlaced models with 1080i and progressive players with 1080p. AOD can hold that resolution at 19 mps while Blu-Ray holds it at 36 mps. So, Blu-Ray's capactity advantage isn't the deciding factor here. Not to mention, AOD players WILL be backwards compatible with our current DVDs, but Blu-Ray players will not.
Why did the DVD Forum choose AOD over Blu-Ray? From DVDtown:
Blu-Ray discs have up to 27-30GB capacity on a single-layer disc, and 50 GB on a dual-layer disc.
AOD (Toshiba/NEC) discs have up to 15GB on single layer, and 30 GB on a dual-layer disc.
But the real question is, how much capacity is really necessary on each format for a quality HD presentation?
HD-DVD resolution is 1920x1080. Just as with regular DVD players there will be interlaced models with 1080i and progressive players with 1080p. AOD can hold that resolution at 19 mps while Blu-Ray holds it at 36 mps. So, Blu-Ray's capactity advantage isn't the deciding factor here. Not to mention, AOD players WILL be backwards compatible with our current DVDs, but Blu-Ray players will not.
Why did the DVD Forum choose AOD over Blu-Ray? From DVDtown:
AOD uses MPEG-4 compression to hold 4 hours of this resolution. The discs best aspect over its competters is they can be made with the same assembly lines as SD-DVDs while Sonys Blu-Ray discs will require expensive new assembly lines. HD-DVDs will be 20 percent cheaper then Blu-Ray with no disadvantage whatsoever in terms of prerecorded media. Both formats will hold 4 hours of 1920 x 1080 resolution. Blu-Ray does have a slight advantage in recording Blu-Rays can record 2 hours of High Definition while HD-DVDs can only record 1.5 hours. Though since HD-DVDs will be cheaper it kind of balences its self. They still have work on the copy protection system but we should get the first HD-DVD products in America by late 2005 - early 2006 area.
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the studios back one format, THAT format will win. It's been stated that they intend to back one format only. What any PC manufacturer's decide to back is not relevant.
Also, who do you think provides a lot of the parts Dell and HP use in their computers? Yep, Sony, Hitachi, etc etc.
More info.
http://www.audioholics.com/ces/ces20...2004_day3.html
I don't really care who "wins" as long as the studios don't cave and support multiple formats. I think AOD has other advantages over Blu-ray though. Mainly ease of manufacturing, backward compatibility and the disks don't have to be in those stupid cartridges.
Also, who do you think provides a lot of the parts Dell and HP use in their computers? Yep, Sony, Hitachi, etc etc.
More info.
http://www.audioholics.com/ces/ces20...2004_day3.html
I don't really care who "wins" as long as the studios don't cave and support multiple formats. I think AOD has other advantages over Blu-ray though. Mainly ease of manufacturing, backward compatibility and the disks don't have to be in those stupid cartridges.
#6
DVD Talk Special Edition
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 1,014
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#7
DVD Talk Special Edition
Join Date: May 1999
Location: USA
Posts: 1,953
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by vivarey
Not to mention, AOD players WILL be backwards compatible with our current DVDs, but Blu-Ray players will not.
Not to mention, AOD players WILL be backwards compatible with our current DVDs, but Blu-Ray players will not.
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm more concerned with the cartridges that Blu-Ray will use. For those that haven't seen it, it's just like a larger version of Sony's Mini-Disk that never took off and every bit as stupid. I had one of those things and the metal cartridge doors break very easily, the disks still get dirty (and how are you supposed to clean them?) and aside from being plain unnecessary, it will no doubt add to the manufacturing cost which will be passed on to us. And how will it play a standard DVD? Will you have to go buy some type of cartridge to put your old DVD's in when you want to play them?
Sorry but my Mini-Disk experience has completely soured my opinion of such a contraption. Give me a bare disk any day.
Sorry but my Mini-Disk experience has completely soured my opinion of such a contraption. Give me a bare disk any day.
#9
DVD Talk Special Edition
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 1,014
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Frank S
I hear this ALL the time and it is a comment that is not true! The players that will be made with Blue-Ray technology WILL be compatible with existing DVD's. They just will have a second laser pickup to do so just like the early DVD players that had dual pickup (one reading DVD's the other reading CD's).
I hear this ALL the time and it is a comment that is not true! The players that will be made with Blue-Ray technology WILL be compatible with existing DVD's. They just will have a second laser pickup to do so just like the early DVD players that had dual pickup (one reading DVD's the other reading CD's).
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 303
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Dammit
I'm more concerned with the cartridges that Blu-Ray will use. For those that haven't seen it, it's just like a larger version of Sony's Mini-Disk that never took off and every bit as stupid. I had one of those things and the metal cartridge doors break very easily, the disks still get dirty (and how are you supposed to clean them?) and aside from being plain unnecessary, it will no doubt add to the manufacturing cost which will be passed on to us. And how will it play a standard DVD? Will you have to go buy some type of cartridge to put your old DVD's in when you want to play them?
Sorry but my Mini-Disk experience has completely soured my opinion of such a contraption. Give me a bare disk any day.
I'm more concerned with the cartridges that Blu-Ray will use. For those that haven't seen it, it's just like a larger version of Sony's Mini-Disk that never took off and every bit as stupid. I had one of those things and the metal cartridge doors break very easily, the disks still get dirty (and how are you supposed to clean them?) and aside from being plain unnecessary, it will no doubt add to the manufacturing cost which will be passed on to us. And how will it play a standard DVD? Will you have to go buy some type of cartridge to put your old DVD's in when you want to play them?
Sorry but my Mini-Disk experience has completely soured my opinion of such a contraption. Give me a bare disk any day.
blue ray will not be using cartridges. and the players will be backwards compatible.
read this, a great article from the digital bits, and it has pics.
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articl...04/report.html
#11
DVD Talk Special Edition
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 1,014
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Sathlin
blue ray will not be using cartridges. and the players will be backwards compatible.
read this, a great article from the digital bits, and it has pics.
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articl...04/report.html
blue ray will not be using cartridges. and the players will be backwards compatible.
read this, a great article from the digital bits, and it has pics.
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articl...04/report.html
Also, they seem to be mistaken when they compare HD-DVD (AOD) and Blu-ray - regarding disc capacity, picture quality, and compression. I want to make this very clear: HD-DVD (AOD) discs hold less but don't suffer as a result. Comparing the capacity of Blu-ray and AOD is like comparing apples and oranges. They use completely different codecs. Read this quote from the DVD Guru:
Blu-ray has made it clear that they are only supporting MPEG-2 as the video codec (at a data rate of 24 Mbps - the same as D-VHS). AOD (HD-DVD) will use a new high efficiency codec, specifically either H.264 or Windows Media 9, which can achieve a superior picture quality to Blu-ray at data rates of 10-12 Mbps.
So what does this mean: It means that even though a dual layer AOD disc will be only 30 Gbytes (compared to Blu-ray's 50 Gbytes disc), the AOD disc will actually hold more audio/video playtime!! So why doesn't Blu-ray adopt a high efficiency codec as well ... that is a very good question ... one reason would be that the already released Blu-ray recorders support only MPEG-2 video - so if Blu-ray switches to a more advanced compression scheme future pre-recorded movie titles won't play on the current Blu-ray recorders. As an aside, you will noticed that the other Blu-ray companies have not released Blu-ray recorders and in fact are waiting until the application layer is finalized for Blu-ray first - although my sources say that Sony (who is the is the defacto head of the Blu-ray consortium) is holding the line on MPEG-2 video compression to the dismay of several of the other companies.
So what does this mean: It means that even though a dual layer AOD disc will be only 30 Gbytes (compared to Blu-ray's 50 Gbytes disc), the AOD disc will actually hold more audio/video playtime!! So why doesn't Blu-ray adopt a high efficiency codec as well ... that is a very good question ... one reason would be that the already released Blu-ray recorders support only MPEG-2 video - so if Blu-ray switches to a more advanced compression scheme future pre-recorded movie titles won't play on the current Blu-ray recorders. As an aside, you will noticed that the other Blu-ray companies have not released Blu-ray recorders and in fact are waiting until the application layer is finalized for Blu-ray first - although my sources say that Sony (who is the is the defacto head of the Blu-ray consortium) is holding the line on MPEG-2 video compression to the dismay of several of the other companies.
#13
Member
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Seattle
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my opinion Blu-Ray would have been cool had they not shackled it with MPEG2. Blu-Ray with H.264 would have been SWEET. Alas that's not likely to happen. I'll side with the lower production costs which will win out with Hollywood. Profits have to come somewhere and the additional expense of Blu-Ray is not going to make matters any easier.
#14
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Originally posted by hmurchison
In my opinion Blu-Ray would have been cool had they not shackled it with MPEG2. Blu-Ray with H.264 would have been SWEET. Alas that's not likely to happen. I'll side with the lower production costs which will win out with Hollywood. Profits have to come somewhere and the additional expense of Blu-Ray is not going to make matters any easier.
In my opinion Blu-Ray would have been cool had they not shackled it with MPEG2. Blu-Ray with H.264 would have been SWEET. Alas that's not likely to happen. I'll side with the lower production costs which will win out with Hollywood. Profits have to come somewhere and the additional expense of Blu-Ray is not going to make matters any easier.
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 1999
Posts: 657
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here is some background info from the official Blu-ray website. They talk about a comparision between the differences of DVD and BR, but some of the information sounds pretty interesting. Specifically, were BR would only have one injection molded substrate instead of two like dvd (good-bye to any possibility to dvd rot?) and a hardened coating to prevent abrasions and allow the disc to be cleaned with/o the fear of it being scratched.
http://www.blu-raydisc-official.org/...ata/tech01.pdf
http://www.blu-raydisc-official.org/...ata/tech01.pdf
#16
DVD Talk Special Edition
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But if the studios dont pick Blu-Ray wont we get into the situation where some films are on one format and all films from the Sony owned studios are on the other.
I can see the advertising now "Spider-man 3 only on Blu-Ray"
I can see the advertising now "Spider-man 3 only on Blu-Ray"
#17
DVD Talk Special Edition
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 1,014
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Dazed
But if the studios dont pick Blu-Ray wont we get into the situation where some films are on one format and all films from the Sony owned studios are on the other.
I can see the advertising now "Spider-man 3 only on Blu-Ray"
But if the studios dont pick Blu-Ray wont we get into the situation where some films are on one format and all films from the Sony owned studios are on the other.
I can see the advertising now "Spider-man 3 only on Blu-Ray"
#18
DVD Talk Special Edition
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Easton, PA
Posts: 1,075
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by vivarey
I doubt it, since the studio would face huge losses in DVD revenue for the film... which they pretty much count on these days. If anything. Blu-ray could go the way of Minidisc-- successful in a niche market as high quality recordable media. Blu-ray recorders are already out and being pushed for their high capacity data storage capabilities.
I doubt it, since the studio would face huge losses in DVD revenue for the film... which they pretty much count on these days. If anything. Blu-ray could go the way of Minidisc-- successful in a niche market as high quality recordable media. Blu-ray recorders are already out and being pushed for their high capacity data storage capabilities.
#19
New Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AOD uses MPEG-4 compression to hold 4 hours of this resolution.
The MPEG technical committee considers AVC (H264) superior to MPEG-4. Microsoft claims WM9 is superior to MPEG-4, though I'm not sure what kind of rigorous testing Microsoft used to make those claims. (Microsoft also claims WM9 achieves AVC's compression-efficiency, at much lower computational cost.)
If you're computer-whiz with your PC/Mac, you can get high-definition demos of WM9 from http://www.wmvhd.com. You need a very fast PC (or Mac), high-resolution display (1280x1024 or better), and a powerful graphics-adapter (64MB or more).
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Freud
I've used literally thousands of Sony Minidisks since 1996...and have never had one of them break in any way.
This is a terrific format to protect the HD-DVD disk.
I've used literally thousands of Sony Minidisks since 1996...and have never had one of them break in any way.
This is a terrific format to protect the HD-DVD disk.
At least they seem to have figured this out as they've made the cartridges no longer needed for read only disks and are attempting to do away with them for writeables as well.
#21
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: You have moved into a dark place. It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Posts: 4,533
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Freud
I've used literally thousands of Sony Minidisks since 1996...and have never had one of them break in any way.
This is a terrific format to protect the HD-DVD disk.
I've used literally thousands of Sony Minidisks since 1996...and have never had one of them break in any way.
This is a terrific format to protect the HD-DVD disk.
But alas, Blu-Ray will not support a cartridge. It'll just be a disc, like current DVD.
Neither solution is perfect, but the higher recording capacity of Blu-Ray (2 hours instead of 1.5 hours of HD-TV) means that most films won't even fit on an AOD/HD-DVD. So it won't work as a home recording format. And then, my friends, it dies.
Hopefully this WON'T be like the VHS/Beta war where the lesser technology (VHS) wins out. The Blu-Ray test that I saw was phenomenal. I haven't seen AOD yet, but I've seen some MPEG4 HD tests and the results were not good.
Of course, they still have a few years to work out the glitches.
I'm just hoping that the studios don't take sides using differing technologies. If that happened, the studio with the more in-demand films would win out.
#22
DVD Talk Special Edition
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 1,014
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by jough
the higher recording capacity of Blu-Ray (2 hours instead of 1.5 hours of HD-TV) means that most films won't even fit on an AOD/HD-DVD. So it won't work as a home recording format. And then, my friends, it dies.
the higher recording capacity of Blu-Ray (2 hours instead of 1.5 hours of HD-TV) means that most films won't even fit on an AOD/HD-DVD. So it won't work as a home recording format. And then, my friends, it dies.
I say leave the recording to other, more specialized, components.
Last edited by vivarey; 01-19-04 at 01:27 AM.