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Schindler's List is anyone else NOT buying?

View Poll Results: Schindler's List is anyone else NOT buying?
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Schindler's List is anyone else NOT buying?

 
Old 01-01-04, 06:15 PM
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I agree that a film isn't automatically excellent because of the strength of its subject matter. However, I think Schindler's List is excellent for many other reasons. It's a confidently directed, emotionally compelling film with great performances and a complex view of its subject. It is heartfelt while avoiding schmaltz, which could have killed this film. It's a shame that fans of more entertaining films are dismissive as it is too sad, while fans of artier fare seem dismissive of it as a Hollywood film. I think it really is a masterpiece, and incidentally, a very important one.
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Old 01-01-04, 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by Ephemeral_Life

BTW, are there any good movies about the German anti-Nazi resistance movement during the 3rd Reich era?
Try "Uprising." It was a made-for TV movie about the resistance movement in the Warsaw ghetto. Not really a good movie, but it was interesting.
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Old 01-01-04, 06:49 PM
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When I first bought my first DVD player I wrote down 20 films I wanted to buy. This is the last of the 20 to finally be release on DVD. Yeah Baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW, I look at this site about once ever 2 months, *** Yawn ***, when is the movie going to be available.
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Old 01-01-04, 06:55 PM
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It will be released on March 9, 2004. If you're excited you can pre-order it now from may web stores!
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Old 01-01-04, 07:01 PM
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I also think it's an ok movie. Definitely not buying it.
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Old 01-01-04, 07:54 PM
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Here's what I posted on another board about this movie (and movies detailing the Holocaust):

Well, I don't think anyone truly "enjoys" watching these films (Schindler's List or The Pianist) unless they are a neo-nazi or hardcore anti-semite. And even then it would take a truly heartless person to get a smile out of these films.

But as a history buff, especially a WWII buff, I love watching these films. This is a part of our history and it's fascinating, morbid as some of it is. You can't watch a film like this and get caught up in the brutality of it ... we all know what happened to 6 million Jews and another 2.5 million Russians, Slavs, Gypsies, Homosexuals and Mentally challenged individuals. I watch these films to be reminded how strong so many people were in such horrible circumstances. How the spirit and courage of so few made such a difference for so many.

-----

That is why I will purchase and watch Schindler's List. It's not a film I'll pop in every month or so, but I'll more-than-likely view it at least once a year.
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Old 01-01-04, 08:08 PM
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Originally posted by mookyman
I agree that a film isn't automatically excellent because of the strength of its subject matter. However, I think Schindler's List is excellent for many other reasons. It's a confidently directed, emotionally compelling film with great performances and a complex view of its subject. It is heartfelt while avoiding schmaltz, which could have killed this film. It's a shame that fans of more entertaining films are dismissive as it is too sad, while fans of artier fare seem dismissive of it as a Hollywood film. I think it really is a masterpiece, and incidentally, a very important one.
mookyman:
I read your post (which I thought was very intelligent) and was not going to reply at all. Then, I spent a bit of time thinking (again) about what you said. So, here's my comment (please do not think that I am trying to argue...perhaps just reflect a bit on what went through my head).

Back in the days when the film first came out I went through so many emotional roller-coasters it is hard to describe and put in words especially on this forum. I felt overwhelmed (for a number of reasons....some of which close to my family’s past…but that's a different issue). Anyhow...years later I changed my opinion about the real message of the film as quite often the true message of Shindler's List (or at least that's how I felt...again) was skewed by the glamour-esque feel Hollywood put on it. What do I mean by this-
In the last 10-15 years I have grown increasingly weary of the way Hollywood approaches certain subjects, the Holocaust era being one of them. I sense an increasing amount of bias toward movies which depict this specific era of our history and attempt to deal with the subject. Critics tend to use the term "masterpiece" so loosely it makes me wonder if they really see the qualities of a certain performance for example or simply attempt to be politically correct (again, bear with me I will explain later). As one of the members on this forum already pointed out, I believe that…in my humble opinion…The Pianist was much better executed yet there is a lot of static in the air when the qualities of the film are discussed (for well known reasons concerning the director’s past).

But how does all this affect Shindler's List? For one I believe that it was a good film that dealt with a very difficult time of our history. However, unlike others I felt that it was extremely slow and at times lacking in character development. This is where I would like to direct your attention back to The Pianist which when compared to Shindler’s List felt much more intimate (o, boy…I hope this makes sense as I struggle to describe how I felt). For example I wanted to learn more about Ben Kingsley's character...the turmoil he went through. I also do not think that the camera work was that great either (do you remember the scene where the train was approaching the camp and the camera zoomed over the chimneys....that was the only exception in my view). The Pianist on the other hand made me feel quite the opposite. Polanski did an excellent job in representing the horror of the ghetto in Warsaw. I also loved how he moved the camera slowly around Brody’s face, at times being still.. focused only on his eyes. It was incredible to hear his breathing. (Somehow I felt the same when I was watching Harrison's Flowers-another gteat film as strong if not better than Shindler's List). What a great director!! Yet, to reflect on what I said earlier, it took the academy years to recognize Polanski- only after he did a film about the Holocaust (which happens to be his most personal one as well).
Anyhow, I hope this explains a bit why I felt the way I did about Shindler’s List. It is indeed a good film but far in my humble opinion from being a masterpiece.

Last edited by pro-bassoonist; 01-01-04 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 01-01-04, 08:31 PM
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I appreciated the clarity of your response, which is clearly distinct from the two viewpoints I described earlier. In two cases, I have to disagree - the film never felt slow to me, and I loved the cinematography, with a handful of shots being among my all-time favorites. However, these two subjects are pretty subjective and I think you'll agree neither of us can be particularly "right." I can agree with you that character development was not always clearly conveyed, though I think there were many things implied. I agree with you that "masterpiece" is an overused term, but I really mean it in the case of this film. Again, I see film as a largely personal experience, so I wrote this not to change your mind but to assure that I have thought of the issues you bring up. Although I don't dare pry, I find your personal connection to the film's subject matter very fascinating and I thank you for sharing it. And incidentally, I thought The Pianist was a very good film as well.
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Old 01-01-04, 09:24 PM
  #59  
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Re: I already have it..

Originally posted by Sosai X
I bought the bootleg more than a year ago. No need to buy the official version, as they have the same features: The movie, DD 5.1 and a DTS track.
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Old 01-01-04, 09:42 PM
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Originally posted by danwiz
It will be released on March 9, 2004. If you're excited you can pre-order it now from may web stores!
Thanks for the Info! I'll just wait and buy it at Best Buy.

What's great over the 4 years is that DVDs now come default Enhanced (with no doubt, some exceptions). It's rare that it's now letter-boxed (gag!). Hopefully SL will be quality enhanced as well!
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Old 01-01-04, 09:46 PM
  #61  
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Originally posted by mookyman
I appreciated the clarity of your response, which is clearly distinct from the two viewpoints I described earlier. In two cases, I have to disagree - the film never felt slow to me, and I loved the cinematography, with a handful of shots being among my all-time favorites. However, these two subjects are pretty subjective and I think you'll agree neither of us can be particularly "right." I can agree with you that character development was not always clearly conveyed, though I think there were many things implied. I agree with you that "masterpiece" is an overused term, but I really mean it in the case of this film. Again, I see film as a largely personal experience, so I wrote this not to change your mind but to assure that I have thought of the issues you bring up. Although I don't dare pry, I find your personal connection to the film's subject matter very fascinating and I thank you for sharing it. And incidentally, I thought The Pianist was a very good film as well.
I struggle immensely when writing about Holocaust movies for two reasons-

First off- it is clearly a difficult task to discuss such a subject on an online forum as intelligent dialog is rather impossible to achieve. Second, people tend to use clichés that are habitually so remote to the subject I’d rather not express my opinion at all.

With this said I have grown extremely weary of the political subtext that could be found in many of those “discussions”. If one disagrees with certain values or characters being exposed in a Holocaust film one could easily be tagged an “anti-Semite”. On the other hand if one truly feels deeply moved by a great performance one could be accused of being “politically-correct”.

A lot of this extreme bias comes from the media as well as there are plenty of instances where they would heavily favor one of the above mentioned occurrences.
With this said you Mookyman are clearly an exception and appear to understand what I was referring to. As to my personal experience- I’d rather not share this on such a public forum. I hope you understand.

Ps
For the record, if you have not seen Harrison’s Flowers give it a chance. Though not a Holocaust film this has to be one of the most emotional and gritty cinematic works I have ever seen. I wrote about it almost a year ago in another thread- in my view truly A. Brody’s best performance. I dare say the film that I truly connected to in every sense of the word...Which is indeed rather sad as the human genocide depicted in it occurred only a few years ago.
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Old 01-01-04, 09:51 PM
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You just simply cannot call a movie like this "crap". It offends me personally as well even that you could say that about such a poignant tale about the Holocaust.

This movie should be in everyone who can afford it's collection, because it is so necessary and valid for everyone to have seen it.
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Old 01-02-04, 12:48 AM
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Why is it okay to say that the Matrix sequels are "crap" but not okay to say that Schindler's List is "crap"?

Spielberg has made mediocre melodramas and he's made brilliant films. I haven't seen SL yet, but I'll probably give it a rental first.

While I agree the thread starter could have chosen his words better (or at least listed *why* he thought SL is crap) we don't have to necessarily think that a film is a masterpiece or has value because of its subject matter.

That would mean that mob films are all bad because they're about bad people, and all Holocaust films are good because they're about suffering.

I'm an amateur screenwriter and was writing a holocaust comedy a few years ago before I realized that someone had already beaten me to it with an entire television series. So I shelved it. Is there comedy in everything? Yes. Is there drama in everything? Yes. It just depends on HOW a film goes about its subject.

I found "Band of Brothers" to be very moving and "Saving Ryan's Privates" to be silly and melodramatic (especially the scenes where the war stopped for a few minutes so Tom Hanks could deliver a ridiculous speech). I thought "Three Kings" was brilliant and "Behind Enemy Lines" to be a snooze-fest. Great films are about the telling of the story, not the subject matter. There can be good and bad holocaust films. It's all in the execution (excuse the pun).
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Old 01-02-04, 01:50 AM
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well said.. Good reference- AGREED!!
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Old 01-02-04, 01:55 AM
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I'm buying. Great film, and it'll add nicely to my other Spielberg titles.
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Old 01-02-04, 04:29 AM
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Originally posted by Mammal
There was plenty of resistance, that's why they established Dachau. Resistance soon became very dangerous...so anti-Nazis kept their mouths shut. The concentration camps were initially set up for anti-Nazis, and became extermination camps later. In 1944 a group of Army officers tried to kill Hitler with a bomb, remember?
sure, I remember, and how much did the german 'resistance' accomplish?
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Old 01-02-04, 07:29 AM
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Originally posted by jough
Why is it okay to say that the Matrix sequels are "crap" but not okay to say that Schindler's List is "crap"?
I think the problem here wasn't that Canadian Bacon just called the film "crap." It's that he did so with nothing to back up the statement. The first post in this thread is very trollish...had it been more like pro-bassoonist's constructive criticism of the film, this thread would have gone in a more productive direction.

BTW, what was the television series comedy about the Holocaust? I'm drawing a blank here.
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Old 01-02-04, 10:22 AM
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Originally posted by Groucho
BTW, what was the television series comedy about the Holocaust? I'm drawing a blank here.
It was more about German concentration camps in general:

http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0058812/

There seems to be a running joke in screenwriting seminars about the hardest thing to write is a holocaust comedy, so if you intend on trying to write a comedy you should try to find something funny there first.

I guess I'm not a very good screenwriter because try as I did, I couldn't really find anything all that funny.

Last edited by jough; 01-02-04 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 01-02-04, 10:26 AM
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"Hogan's Heroes" was about a German POW camp. Very different.

Some of Chaplin's comedy The Great Dictator was set in a concentration camp. Chaplin later said that had he know what was really going on in the camps, he never would have made the film.
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Old 01-02-04, 10:29 AM
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It's a well made movie, and an important movie, but it's just not the type of thing I really need to own. I won't be buying it.
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Old 01-02-04, 10:35 AM
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Originally posted by pro-bassoonist
However, unlike others I felt that it was extremely slow and at times lacking in character development.
I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on Schindler's List. I can see where someone could walk away with that opinion about the character development (or lack thereof). My opinion is that perhaps this was done deliberately. I know when I saw the film for the first time, I felt like I had been transported back in time to witness first-hand the holocaust. The camera seems to have a voyeuristic quality about it, which is allowing me to stand unseen in the middle of the concentration camp and witness the horror, but powerless to stop it. I don't think character develpment was the main focus of the film, because it sort of wants us to observe Oskar Schindler from the outside and make our own conclusions as to what his inner motivations might be.
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Old 01-02-04, 10:58 AM
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I've wanted this on DVD ever since I received my first player as a gift in '99.

I can understand how this film is not everyone's cup of tea, but it's one of my favorites.
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Old 01-02-04, 11:41 AM
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Not buying it. Thought it was a great movie but after seeing The Pianist I decided I just don't need to see anymore Holocaust movies. I know it was awful and I don't need to see a movie to remind me of that fact. I don't get anything out of it, because I am already thoroughly convinced it was one of the worst things in human history.
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Old 01-02-04, 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by rennervision
I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on Schindler's List. I can see where someone could walk away with that opinion about the character development (or lack thereof). My opinion is that perhaps this was done deliberately. I know when I saw the film for the first time, I felt like I had been transported back in time to witness first-hand the holocaust. The camera seems to have a voyeuristic quality about it, which is allowing me to stand unseen in the middle of the concentration camp and witness the horror, but powerless to stop it. I don't think character develpment was the main focus of the film, because it sort of wants us to observe Oskar Schindler from the outside and make our own conclusions as to what his inner motivations might be.
Very interesting point!! I am not sure I concur with the statement however this could be indeed a different way to look at the pace of the film.
In my opinion the film was indeed intended to convey every little detail of Schindler’s persona, the decisions he made, the emotional struggle he went through. I suppose my criticism was directed more towards the fact that exploring the rest of the characters in-depth would have benefited Liam Neeson’s performance tremendously.
I see your point though and what might have left you to believe that such direction of the movie was intended. When I visited Auschwitz years ago I felt pretty much the same-powerless and numb.

With this said I feel that I need to elaborate a bit on the criticism that has been addressed toward the original poster’s categorization of the film. I take his “crap” comment with a grain of salt for two reasons-

First to call a movie like SL “crap” and more importantly not substantiate your comment is rather childish. In this case even offensive. To many people this film and its message mean much more than what it might mean for example to you (not talking ONLY about Canadian Bacon). Therefore, one could at least respect those who might feel differently about it. I am sure that plenty found the film so dear and important because of the message it had not the quality of the director or actors, OR both. Or they found that this is indeed a masterpiece that was done brilliantly.
HOWEVER this should not negate your right to criticize it!!

Second, without commenting on the film’s qualities I would like to point out that I attempt to be indulgent to any opinion that might benefit a discussion. Was this comment intended to spur one? I don’t know. But it sure did!!
Furthermore, let’s forget for a minute the importance of SL’s message (not dismiss it). As a member of the forum already pointed out why is it ok to classify a film such as the Matrix as being “crap” but not ok to accept that someone might use the same comment about SL. Without being overly judgmental- it is the value of the film that could be classified as such (should one truly believe that the film does not meet any cinematic standards) NOT its message.
Right here is where the big problem occurs when discussing films about the Holocaust era. One could easily fall under the spell of uncontrolled bias that obviously has nothing to do with the film’s quality, OR the stupidity of hasty and unsubstantiated comment that would upset those that might deem a simple message more important than acting. That’s why I often refuse to involve in film criticism especially with films such as Schindler’s List.

To sum it all up- I believe that to be associating yourself (deliberately or not) with either of the above two occurrences is truly only your loss as you will never be able to hold a constructive dialog about any sensitive topic (not just the Holocaust). Tagging a film with a categorization as the one that CB used is to say the least inappropriate though as we already witnessed it- possible. As it also stands true that just because the film has a message that is as important as the one Schindler’s List attempts to convey makes it automatically a masterpiece is in my view naïve. Either way I would always be open to hear different opinions as uncomfortable they might be to the majority.

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Old 01-02-04, 12:23 PM
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not really interested in owning the movie. sometime I might try it as a rental.
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