I don't believe I've ever encountered someone so touchy before. I'm not trying to order you around, I'm simply stating a practical fact. I absolutely agree that the world is not black and white, however, it is filled with situations in which we must choose a black or white as an answer. In general, this is done by analyzing all available and relevant (in any way) data, to a level of completeness that is allowed by current circumstances (generally time and availible information), and deciding where ones overall feelings lie in between the given "one" and "zero". After that has been established, the general feeling is then analyzed to see towards which end of the spectum it leans. Based on this, the "black or white" decision is made.

Maybe it's the word "preference" that got us into this little mess. Would "choice" work better? Let's say that there were two DVD's of a movie that you really wanted on a shelf (use your most current "must have") and you knew that one had an insert in it and the other didn't but apart from that, everything else was identical. Which one would you choose? That seems to be more like what the original post is discussing. There is no option of "I don't care" . . . assuming that you are going to buy the movie you only have the choices of with or without.

Some people decide based on only somewhat related information (e.g., don't want inserts because they are aren't worth killing trees, don't want inserts because you can't tell when you shake the DVD in the store if it is a loose DVD or the insert rattling -- thanks to gcribbs for that one --, etc.). Personally, I don't get much out of the inserts themselves in most cases (except when they provide additional information as in Dogma, Hackers, etc.) I have one related "preference" that lead to my "choice" of wanting inserts: I like the look and consistancy of having inserts in all of my cases rather than having it vary from one to another. It is not a specifc preference for the inserts, but almost more of a design preference that led me to that choice. Either way, however, I made a choice.

You basically state that you don't have an opinion . . . the only people who don't have opinions are the ones who are dead.

If, somehow, every possible aspect other than the presence of the insert was equal in my mind, I would make a random choice. The presence of the insert would not be a factor. There is, indeed, the option of "I don't care." I don't have to care about the insert simply because you say I do. The presence of the insert would not be a factor in my decision, nor would the frequency of the letter "E" in the text on the back of the DVD case, nor would how many stars Roger Ebert gave the film, nor would the ethnicity of the director. Inserts are just one in a long list of things that do not affect my opinion of a DVD, and, even if you force me to choose, the choice will be unaffected by the presence of the insert.

Imagine you were going to buy one of two releases that were of identical quality in your mind, except one had the UPC number 3-432446-324 and the other had the UPC number 3-324236-233. Which one would you choose?

Do you prefer white people or black people? Imagine you were going to buy one of two releases that were of identical quality in your mind, except one was directed by a white person and one was directed by a black person. Which one would you choose?

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You basically state that you don't have an opinion . . . the only people who don't have opinions are the ones who are dead.

Oh really? So what's your opinion on which UPC number is better: 3-432446-324 or 3-324236-233? Which race is better: white or black?

It is possible to not have an opinion on a topic, no matter how many times you keep telling me otherwise. This doesn't mean I'm dead, it means I don't have to listen to your demands to make a choice.

DJ

The UPC code, a peice of irrelevant (to the movie owner) information, is hardly comparable to an insert which (however important you deem it) does provide additional design aspects (e.g., artwork, screenshots, etc.) and related information (e.g., chapter information, movie information, etc.). However, to answer your question, given the option (and assuming I noticed that they UPC's were different), I would go with 3-324236-233 because I like the symmetry of the 332...233.

I'm not even going to touch the race question both because it is irrelevant to the issue at hand and the question itself is in poor taste to begin with, but I do admit, without hesitation that I have an opinion on the issue just, like, I am sure, that you and everyone else, who is cognizant of the fact that different races exist, does.

It is impossible not to.

I wanted Remo in widescreen as well, it was my most wanted DVD. Since the DVD was an open matte presentation, no big deal. I captured the movie from my DVD player to my computer as an AVI, used TMPGENC to crop off pixels to give it a 1.85:1 aspect ratio, encode to 16:9, author in DVDIt, and I have Remo the way it should be. I threw the original disc in the trash, I don't even miss it. (I know that the Japanese release is in anamorphic widescreen, but I'm too lazy to import the disc and buy a multi-region player.)

Just my $0.02.

Actually, I'd be willing to exercise my brain and actually make a decision NOT based on a lame factor. This is a little like saying you have an extra ticket for a concert, and you'll decide which of your friends to invite based, say, on who is wearing the nicest shirt.

"The UPC code, a peice of irrelevant (to the movie owner) information, ..."

The UPC code is as relevant to deciding which DVD to buy as an insert. In other words, it is not at all relevant. One buys a DVD to watch the movie not to read the insert or the UPC code. If one has a choice between two films which one wants, what would jough do if both had equal inserts? Would he then decide based on which UPC code looked better to him? Would he base it on which keep case cover was placed straighter? Do you begin to see the absurdity of jough's position?

"Interesting, because, he never mentioned J6P's until the very last line:"

So what? The point is that he did mention it, and by so doing drew a line of division which is elitist. It isn't anymore interesting that this is in his last sentence than if it had been in his first.

(Echo effect)"the days...the days...the days...the days..."

Flashback: Ten years ago at jough's home theatre

jough: Look, look upon the grandeur of my home theatre, you commoners. Surely you wish that you could own such splendor, but unfortunately for you, the discs are expensive and rare. But look at the quality of the image, hear the fullness of the sound. Your puny VHS pales in comparison to the might of my home theatre. Gnash and wail in envy, for I am.....a Cinephile! Ha Ha Ha Ha Haaaaa!

Flashforward: Present day

jough: Look, look upon the grandeur of my home thea....

guest: Uh, thanks, jough, but we've already got that DVD and watched it in our own home theatre. DVDs are great aren't they? And so affordable.

jough: But, but...I've spent many years and many thousands of dollars in the pursuit of the cinema. How dare you have something comparable to my beloved theatre experience? Don't you understand? I...I am....a Cinephile.

guest: Right. We'll see you later, OK, jough?

As guest leaves, we switch to a rotating overhead slow zoom of jough's upturned anguished face and clenched fists as he stares up into the pouring rain. (Why's it raining in jough's home theatre? For dramatic effect.)
jough: WHY, GOD, WHYYYY!!!!

I think that's what's really bothering jough. Home theatres are mainstream and DVDs are now mass market. And though practically all of us at DVDTalk prefer OAR over fullscreen, a sizable portion of the mass market prefers fullscreen. Fortunately, that portion is shrinking and there's no danger of widescreen being eliminated, as many feared. But, this increased market, fullscreen buyer included, have increased demand and it's resulted in many positive improvements that Iron_Giant pointed out and jough conveniently ignored.

Myself, speaking as a guy who likes DVDs, I think the improvements outweigh the "cheapening".

Okay . . . we are straying even further from the original point here, but let me see if I can draw it back in.

I was using an extreme example because I was getting nothing from reasonable ones. But your example is in line with what I was trying to say which was that there are always inputs into the decision making process that allow you to make a decision.

Now, if you had two friends and one extra ticket, hopefully, you would be able to figure out a reason to pick one before it got down to how their shirts look, but for some people (not me) that might actually be a factor. Maybe they are hoping to pick up girls at the concert and one of the friends is wearing a shirt that, for whatever reason, is going to repel them like cat's from a vacuum cleaner. The ability of the other friends more attractive shirt to not drive away women could be a preference, however superficial or shallow, that impacts the decision.

May be it it has the opposite effect so that the person says, "Wow, my buddy is really a rotten dresser . . . nobody is ever going to invite him to a concert if I don't," and that affects the choice the other way.

The whole point that I saw Jough making was that, if given the ability to choose to have inserts put into DVD's or not, which way would go? Even if you don't care about inserts, there are always, if nothing else, external "forces" (i.e. the desire to preserve trees, the ability to hear a "floater" DVD rattle around the case, etc.) that allow you to at least make a decision. It shouldn't be this hard to get people to give and answer about whether or not they want inserts in DVD's.

Wow . . . I'm starting to take more heat on this post that jough was.

Please don't get me wrong . . . I'm am not encouraging people to make buying decisions based on whether or not there are inserts in DVD's. Neither am I saying that they should put more importance on the insert as part of the package. I was just saying that I found it hard to believe that, given the question "Would you choose to have inserts put into DVD cases, if given if you had that decision?" that a resonable person could not come up with a "Yes" or "No" answer.

Hmmm . . . you and I must be interpretting the following line differently.I guess I can see how it could be taken negatively, but honestly, I just read it as, "I welcome anyone's comments."

FWIW, I interpret this
"I look forward to hearing from my fellow Cinephile's and the Joe-Six-Pack's alike on these issues."
as in part an invite for all opinions from all 'types' of DVD viewer, which is good, but it does seem to be a black/white 'them/us' kind of thing. I'm not a Joe Six Pack, I have an opinion on why OAR is better, I can tell a difference between progressive scan and S-video, I like 5.1+ mixes; but I'm probably not a cinephile, especially based on RKillgore's very entertaining scene above; I like bad movies, I have bought non-OAR in the past, my entire 'home theater', counting tv and cables, probably cost less than 3000$, I only got into dvd about two years ago, I'm not willling to pay 100$ for a 'collector's copy' of Salo, and I do buy some dvd's from WalMart, if they have the product I want for the right price. I'm midway between J6P and Cinephiliacs, and I like that dvd is more mainstream, because they're easier to find/buy, *very* affordable in general, and you can find lots of people to discuss them with.
Re: inserts; to me, they're a bonus. An informative, booklet-type insert is a "Hey, cool" but not a decision rule; a scene-listing insert is pretty much pointless to me. Honestly, is there really any information that might be in an insert, that you want to read, that you couldn't find on the internet?

"I was just saying that I found it hard to believe that, given the question "Would you choose to have inserts put into DVD cases, if given if you had that decision?" that a resonable person could not come up with a "Yes" or "No" answer."

I think that you are ignoring the fact that a reasonable person might say "I don't care.". A reasonable man might say that he is only purchasing a movie, and thus only cares about the quality of the actual DVD. I also think that your question ignores the fact that all inserts are not created equal. I love the inserts in Blue Underground's Spaghetti Western Collection because they are short booklets containing interesting essays on the films. I really don't care about a piece of paper with a chapter list and a picture.

"I guess I can see how it could be taken negatively, but honestly, I just read it as, "I welcome anyone's comments.""

It can only be taken negatively. You are misreading it. Consider that he could have said "anyone" but he deliberately chose to draw a line of division between cinephiles, with whom he identifies, and Joe-Six-Packs, with whom he does not. To regard jough's comments as not negative is to ignore the deliberation of his action. Jough meant to draw that distinction or he would not have made it. As he places himself in one group, he clearly implies a negative about the other. In fact, the very term Joe-Six-Pack is, by definition, derogatory.

I like the original post. Now, I only wish the studios and low-budget line of DVD producers have taken notice.

I give up . . .

Thanks

It was entertaining to find what jough's said before on other threads, especially when I find gold like this:
One could argue that open-matte is not pan-and-scan, which it isn't, but it's not OAR, either.

Just wondering: where on the case does it say “comes with/does not come with insert”? I guess a “cinephile” would have done his/her research before even stepping into the store, but I honestly have trouble finding reliable info on non-anamorphic releases.




BTW, had jough professed to be a DVD-phile, I doubt I would have had a problem with the arrogant nature of his posts. Go figure.

I guess the reason I dont care about inserts is because I prefer to make my own, especially in the place of a one-sheet chapter list. a booklet is always welcome....but one-sheets I find to be a waste of paper. I'd rather construct my own booklet with reveiws and tidbits of information...custom made to fit my needs. sometimes they dont look perfect...but all I want is info that I can reflect on while watching or getting ready to watch a film/dvd. works for me anyway.

Actually it would probably result in NO additonal versions of the movie, subs, WS or otherwise. If the studio puts out Godzilla and nobody buys it, what does it tell the studio. Nobody gives a crap about Big G. Why would they put out another version if they think they will loose money on it? If I was running the company, I wouldn't put it out.

The only way for it to work is for everyone who refuses to by a P&S dubbed version of the movie to contact the studio and let them know why you are not buying. This way, the know there is a market out there for these films and are more likely to release another version.

Nothing to figure - I agree with that completely.

I, and apparently others, consider the insert as relevant as the UPC code. Just because you deem it more important for yourself, it doesn't mean it has some kind of objective relevance that others must take into consideration when making a purchase. Perhaps this will come as a shock to you, but your opinion does not hold the force of objectivity, and the rest of the world need not fall in line with the absurd everyone-must-have-an-opinion way you see things.

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I'm not even going to touch the race question both because it is irrelevant to the issue at hand and the question itself is in poor taste to begin with

Taste aside, I believe the issue is as relevant to DVD purchasing habits as inserts.

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but I do admit, without hesitation that I have an opinion on the issue just, like, I am sure, that you and everyone else, who is cognizant of the fact that different races exist, does.

It is impossible not to.

It is impossible to not care what the race of a director is? It's impossible to not make a DVD buying decision based upon the race of the director when all other factors are equal? To take a cue from your sig's Princess Bride quote: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Being cognizant of differences does not mean one must have an opinion. Not all differences are necessarily qualitative ones, and there is no law of nature that requires us to hold an opinion on every conceivable topic. It is, indeed, possible to not care about something.

DJ

Geeze - I go to bed and the argument explodes all around me. Well, you'll have to forgive me as I jump back a page or two. . . .

I'd seen the Godzilla movies - but not for years and years and years, and there were a couple of the newer ones that I hadnt seen yet. I used to love watching them on the Saturday afternoon Sci-Fi theater on TV, and was eagerly re-watching the films. The disc was mostly irrelevant - laserdisc, DVD - whatever. It was the films that I cared about.

Well, no two discs will ever be so perfectly balanced like this. There will always be another outside force - price, rarity, my own desires - that come into play. What was I in the mood to watch tonight? Is my collection genre heavy of one of these discs? Is one older and likely to go out of print? Do I have enough money to afford BOTH, and that sort of thing. Does one disc have an insert would come about 98th on the list of 100 things to consider.

But you know, if not having an insert makes the discs cheaper - then suddenly I *DO* have an opinion. Get rid of them. Show 'em the door. Give 'em their walking papers. Cheaper is better in my mind, and frankly the damn things are useless, pointless and silly. If more studios emulated the MGM Midnight Movies line - good transfer bare bones releases with no inserts at an amazingly low price - I would support that 1,000 percent.

You know - strangely, with all the talk of UPC codes and their importance to the disc, I would say that I value the UPC much more than I value an insert. The UPC is the way that I enter the disc into my database tracking program. Discs without one (and I do have a few) are MUCH harder to input than ones with.

With an insert, I don’t think I've ever even glanced at it, aside from "Oh, that's nice".

I politely disagree with you. Just because someone does not choose to watch widescreen or listen to a commentary or whatever does not mean they do not appreciate movies.

My father loves movies and has for years. He doesn't watch all widescreen or listen to commentaries, but he DOES appreciate movies. He doesn't have a big TV so he would rather watch full frame.

Movies are meant for everyone. Not just people who consider themselves 'cinephiles'. Most J6Ps (like my Dad) choose to be "ignorant" (your definition above). They feel that they have better things to do in their lives than watch a movie numerous times and study film.

I'm temporarily coming out of my "I give up" to clarify my point.

I think you and I are making very close to the same point . . . it is the very fact that, amongst other similar things, they do "watch a movie numerous times and study film" that is the distinguishing difference between a cinephile and everybody else. That does not make them any better or worse, just more devoted and knowledgeable about the particular subject of film.

I just noticed my use of the phrase "do not appreciate movies" at the end of my post and recognize it was a poor choice . . . what I meant was what I said in the beginning part where I used "don't appreciate the intricacies" of movies (refering to cinematography techniques, use of lighting, aristic camera angles, use of color for emphasis/symbolism, etc.).

Sorry for the confusion.

. . . returning to "I give up" mode . . .

I understand what you are saying.

I guess i am somewhere in the middle. Not really a 'cinephile', but not really a J6Per.

I give up too! This thread is giving me tired head.

What on earth is a J6Per?

J6P = Joe/Jane Sixpack

It's a term that gets used to describe people who aren't as devoted to movies/DVD's as most of the people here. Most commonly used in reference to people who prefer full frame (FF) versions of films to widescreen (WS) (a.k.a. the people who "don't like those black bars on the screen").

Some people find it deragatory, some just use it more as nothing more than a nickname.