talemyn

So a post in the "So, I watched Full Metal Jacket In Widescreen Today" thread got me thinking . . .Like ZackR, I've heard a lot of noise about the Star Wars DVD releases being "revamped" versions of the orginal movie and I've often wondered, what makes the original movies so special?

Now before I get death threats, let me back up . . .

I LOVE THE STAR WARS SERIES! It is one of the greatest multi-movie film epics EVER!

Now that being said, as individual movies, each episode is not that great. With the exception of Alec Guinness and Harrison Ford (who had not reached his peak yet), there isn't a decent actor in Episodes 4-6. The Luke/Leia exchange of "Luke: . . . My father has it; I have it; my sister has it. Yes, it’s you, Leia. Leia:I know. Somehow, I’ve always known." is possibly the least convincing scene that I have ever witnessed in a movie (and I have watched some bad ones). Some people hate the Ewoks . . . some hate C3PO . . . we all could go on and on with details that bug us in each one. So why is it that we are so protective of them? Why do we complain when Lucas wants to make changes that he thinks would improve the movie? Why do we hold Episodes 1-3 to standards that 4-6, when looked at objectively, could never stand up to?

Now, the fans have played a good size part in making Star Wars what it is today, but how much say (if any) should we get in the direction that the DVD releases go? Do we leave Lucas to present his movies the way he wants to or do we "demand" that our Star Wars memories are honored by keeping the DVD true to the way we first experienced them in theaters and/or on tape?

Ahhh . . . the thoughts that come to you at 1:30 AM.

Talk amongst yourselves . . .

ZackR

Well, since you were kind enough to quote me, I must offer my opinion. I believe that Star Wars is definitely George Lucsas' creation. He owns it. I am not one who buys into this idealistic, "It is art and it belongs to the people" BS. They are his films. He can do whatever he wants with them. I would love to see his "final visions" for the films. However, I just think it would be nice if the originals were available as well.

An example: Superman: The Movie is my favorite movie of all time. I have watched it probably over 100 times since I first saw it at 5 years old. Now, the new DVD release is supposed to be Richard Donner's final say on the film. That is how he wants the film portrayed. Great. I am cool with that. BUT... I still wish the theatrical were available on DVD as well. I know that version like an old friend. It is familiar and I know literally every line of dialog and every cue of music. Donner owes me nothing. He does not owe me or "the fans" the theatrical release version on DVD. Neither does Lucas. I just believe it would be nice and a good gesture to the lifelong fans if the original theatrical versions of the films were released. Spielberg was considerate enough to do it with E.T. and I applaud him for it. Now, I can watch Spielberg's vision of the film, or I can watch the film exactly as I remember it. I wish and hope that Lucas does the same thing. But again, he surely doesn't owe it to me. It would just be nice.

Astro

All of your examples for each episode being "not that great" come from Jedi.. the bastard of the original trilogy.

Kind of a dead horse, but after Empire, Lucas and Gary Kurtz (producer of the first two films) went their separate ways. Lucas proceeded to surround himself with people that wouldn't argue with his "vision" of Star Wars... etc...

The problem with these "revamped" versions is that the creative force that was in charge of the original trilogy is no more. What Lucas says goes.. even if its not the best of choices to make. In addition, people change. Lucas' vision of Star Wars has changed over the past 20 years.

ZackR

Excellent point, Astro!

Again, I have no problem with Lucas hacking up and modifying Star Wars to his heart's content. I just think it would be nice to have the original versions as well...

Jackskeleton

I find it funny that the dvd community is so hell bent on what the directors vision is when we campaign for directors cuts and yet we all turn our backs on lucas and say "No.. I want it the way I like it"

ZackR

Well, Jack, I for one would always welcome having both versions available. I want to have the director's vision as much as the next guy, but I think it is a good idea when the theatrical cut is made available as well. Trust me, if Lucas makes the origina versions availble along with his "director's vision" versions, this fanboy will be buying both!!

I keep my LD of Superman because I want the theatrical. I also own and enjoy the DVD as well. If a director really has his vision trampled by some production company or the limits of technology, then I would be the first in line to see the film as the director intended. That still doesn't change the fact that I would like the original as well. Hey, if Lucas wants to burn all masters or whatever of the originals, he can go ahead. He doesn't owe me anything. It would just be great if he did release the theatricals on DVD.

Now, as far as directors modifying films to fit their "vision," I have only ine minor worry about that. With today's technology, virtually anything is possible. I am not sure if I would like it if directors constantly changed and modified their films over and over. Maybe in 20 years, Lucas will decide SW is too violent and will replace all lightsabers with walkie talkies.... I know that is an exaggeration, but still. But, maybe that would be a good thing. Spielberg changed the evil horrible guns into walkie talkies in ET....BUT he DID give us the theatrical version as well. If that is the case, then Mr. Lucas, modify away!!

**and as a side note, if I were a cop and there were some kids running away with a kidnapped alien on a flying bicycle, you better friggin believe I would have my gun out!!!!

ZackR

One more quick thing: I think our being "hell bent" usually refers to when films are modified from the director's vision, such as edits or changes to the aspect ratio, etc by someone else. But when a director changes his own film after the fact, that is slightly different in my book.

darkflounder

I'm of the opinion that Lucas can do whatever he wants to do with his movies, good or bad. However, all I want is the option to own both theatrical versions, the original and the special edition.

When my LD player finally dies and I'm unable to get a replacement, then I will no longer be able to watch the definitive movies of my childhood. I was six when Star Wars came out, and I saw it at least 20 times in the theatre. I had Star Wars sheets, posters, toys, pajamas, t-shirts, etc etc etc. And I know I'm not alone here.

Spielburg got it right when he had both versions of ET released. That's all I'm asking for, the option to have both versions.

talemyn

1st - I think that you misunderstood his post . . . I think he was trying to say that normally we are "hell bent" on supporting the truth of a director's vision (e.g., in director's cuts), but in this case "we" (meaning the overall DVD community) want it the way it was.

2nd - How much of this do you guys think this has to do with when we saw the movie? The movies that we are mentioning (Star Wars, Superman, etc.) are all ones that we saw as kids when we were less concerned with the cinematographic aspects of a film and more focused on a "cool movie with neat effects". It is easier, as a kid, to be more technically and philosophically forgiving of a movie and fight through the "bad stuff" to develop a special attachment (I was just looking at info on "Tomorrow People" - from Nickelodeon when I was a kid. To me then . . . great show. Objectively now . . . crap show).

The posts in the "So, I watched Full Metal Jacket In Widescreen Today" thread are continuing to run in an interesting parallel to this one. What made me post the second point (above) was my realization that I had just posted a message in that thread saying that I could care less about ever seeing the theatrical version of LotR:FotR because the EE release is so much more of a complete movie. I wonder if I had watched it as a kid and the EE had been released now, if I would have a similar reaction to the one that people are having to the proposed changes to Star Wars?

ZackR

One difference with LotR is that we all know what we see on screen is not exactly what the director wants and that his true version will be available on DVD. Jackson is not changing his mind 20 or 30 years down the road. Also, Jackson and New Line are releasing the theatrical versions on DVD as well.

You do have a point as far as when we saw the movies though. Star Wars and Superman were both big parts of my childhood. I just wish that the theatrical versions of both were available in addition to, not instead of, the director's final version. Spielberg and Jackson gave us both with E.T. and LotR, respectively. I wish all directors would do the same.

Rogue588

Quote:

Originally posted by ZackR
One difference with LotR is that we all know what we see on screen is not exactly what the director wants and that his true version will be available on DVD. Jackson is not changing his mind 20 or 30 years down the road. Also, Jackson and New Line are releasing the theatrical versions on DVD as well.

You do have a point as far as when we saw the movies though. Star Wars and Superman were both big parts of my childhood. I just wish that the theatrical version of both were available in addition to, not instead of, the director's final version. Spielberg and Jackson gave us both with E.T. and LotR, respectively. I wish all directors would do the same.

Damn you. Stay out of my head...I was just getting ready to type almost the exact same sentiments...

Jackskeleton

well in truth, peter jackson said he did perfer the theatrical version and felt they were just fine, but had the extra footage and bam.

now also adding to this. who says that the new format needs to have the old films on it? You can get the original trilogy on VHS and LD very easily. does it mean it has to be on dvd? I could think of a ton of films that will never see the light of day on any format. it would be nice if they were released.. but it's not going to happen.

the comment is indeed correct tale, in this case we demand the originals. some even say that they feel their childhood has been raped because of the change. it's all just a little much if you ask me.

FMJ's thread is a reminder. the director intended it to be seen in 4:3. that's his choice and we should accept that right? not just because we like widescreen shall we accept what the director doesn't want. we all talk about OAR but we have to realize.. "Original aspect ratio" could be the same as "Original concept design and Idea's". lucas had a lot of ideas. many of which he couldn't create with the technology. he has the tools and redid it. perhaps we should just accept it.

to a little kid it doesn't matter if greedo shoots first. they are seeing it how we did when we were young. simple as that. the magic of the films is part because you grew up with them.


didn't stop folks rushing to LOTR's.. that was changed after the fact..

at first spielberg WASNT going to give us the original. Lucas at this point doesn't want to give us the original. I'm willing to bet that he will when the time comes. till then enjoy your LD's and bootlegs.


fan boys will also by the S.E.'s only if they came out as that. Fan boys love to talk the trash but at the end of the day you know they will pony up the cash to buy the goods. trust me, after spending more years then I can count at conventions and in the scene.. people will buy it only to talk trash about it five feet after.

talemyn

That's an interesting thought . . . although, honestly, I can't remember if I knew about the EE when I saw LotR:FotR in the theater. I wonder how much of an impact that knowledge makes . . .

Jackskeleton

whic brings up another issue I wonder about.. double dipping. People hate it. And I mean HATE IT when companies double dip on titles. yet for a select few it's alright. I really couldn't care if they gave you an advance notice and 2 bucks off.. it's still double dipping. Spielberg was atleast nice enough to include both versions in one package. Why couldn't LOTR's come in one package? both regular and EE. that would have been a step in the better direction if you ask me. As for Jackson not changing his vision 20 to 30 years down the road.. Who knows. it hasn't been more then a couple of years and we already have two versions. Who knows if jackson will add more down the road or not. that is one aspect we can't assume on or hold against lucas. there was a lot of flaws with star wars to begin with that Lucas wanted to change. and through time he did so. from luke yelling out "carrie" and so on. who knows. Maybe we will discover that there is a chopper in one of the scenes of LOTR's by accident and we will get an edit. this would go against your claim of jackson re-working the film. right.

Jackskeleton

You didn't. they aren't the director's original intentions of the film


"I don't really want to call it the director's cut"
-Peter Jackson talking about EE's

he does go on about how the theater versions are what he invisioned and suit his image of it well. he just wanted to crank out something more for those looking for more scenes that couldn't get enough of it.

talemyn

I didn't realize that was the way PJ felt. Out of curiosity, if he preferred the theatrical version, does anyone know why he recut the movie with the new footage in, instead of just offering the standard "deleted scenes"? Not that I'm upset with him about it, of course.

Astro

The problem I have with a "director's cut" of Star Wars is the conflicted nature of the changes.

Greedo Scene- Lucas shot the the scene with the original outcome in mind. There are better ways to have done the shot if he had Greedo shooting first floating around in his head.

I don't have a problem with Lucas going back and adding his Jabba scene however since it was part of his original "vision", even though it adds little to the film.

And about this double dipping...

Compare the special additions of LotR and Star Wars. Star Wars adds effects shots, basically. Little is added to the story. Great, a scene with Jabba that tells us what Greedo already did.

With the EE of LotR entirely new scenes are added seamlessly into the film, greatly increasing the depth of the film. Not to mention the huge number of documentaries and commentaries included on the discs.

Jackskeleton

because Peter Jack$on raped my childhood!!!


Anyone correct me here now, but like I said above. for those who wanted more and have a bladder to sit it out, they could see the extended version. like any film, scenes had to be cut somewhere. the theater versions are, from his stand point, good in themselves.

ZackR

I don't hold it against Lucas for wanting to change his films. They are his, after all. As I have said, I would just like for the originals to be on DVD. That is just something I would like, not something that I think Lucas has any obligation to do. And if Jackson edits LotR more and re-releases down the road, that is fine with me. They are his films. We do have the originals on DVD though, for those of us who want them.

Now as far the the original Star Wars trilogy being available on LD and VHS - you are totally right there. My point from the beginning has been that it would be a nice gesture to the fans if Lucas released the originals on DVD. As you rightly point out, fanboys (which includes me!) would buy the originals as well as any "Ultimate Edition" or whatever it is called of Star Wars. I will be first in line. In fact, I will buy pretty much anything Star Wars that Lucas decides to release.

As for my feelings on double dipping...I believe my opinion will differ with most people's. Double dipping doesn't bother me at all. Is it annoying? Sure. But, making and releasing movies is about making money. Plain and simple. Sure, the directors have their artistic motivations, etc, but it all comes down to $$$. So, if I am a movie studio, and I know fanboys and obsessive collectors will buy multiple covers of "Reservoir Dogs" simply because they are completists, then I am going to release them. Shoot, if I were George Lucas, I would release the Original Trilogy, the 1997 SE's and my "Ultimate, True Vision For The Trilogy" Editions. If I thought people would buy all 3 versions (and many of us fanboys would), I would release them all. I can not blame them for wanting to make more money. And if it happens to be at the expense of my wallet due to my obsessive, completist nature - then that is my problem, not theirs. . .

Just my opinion. BTW, I am really enjoying this discussion.

ZackR

Somehow I skipped over this:
Believe me, I do enjoy them!!
...though I have the LD's and actually had my own DVD-R backups made at a cool local place....

Jackskeleton

Not really a fair thing to judge. one is close to 4 hours long, the other is 2 hours long. Of course if lucas added all the deleted scenes he could have made it an epic and hell, maybe, just maybe it might have told a different story. but in the end do we really need to see a 20 minute shot on how life was on Aldaran before it gets blown up? not really. Lucas does one thing great. Edits. He is one hell of an editor. In that you have to realize what is needed and what could be left on the cutting room floor. I loved the EE's of LOTR's but in all honestly, I have only watched it like twice because there is a lot of filler in there that really could have been left on the cutting room floor. some of it does indeed add content to the story, but a lot of it is just filler.

Now we don't have any sort of SW dvd to compare LOTR's to so we should hold off on which one has more documentaries and behind the scenes features. but let me tell you one thing, from all these years that have past, They could put together a ton of bonus features. Hell, just by collecting all the "making of" and "behind the scenes" clips from every SW re-release they could do at the very least a five disc set of just bonus crap. but that leads us back to the original question in our minds.. is all that needed?

Jackskeleton

ah, but the big question here is what happens when the next format comes along and Peter Jackson decides that hey, the originals were good enough. why not just port those over to the new format and forget about the EE since they were just bonus films.

we then have to decide which one's were the directors original intentions? And lets not assume that it's the EE cause he filmed the extra scenes for a reason.. films in general film tons of stuff that lands on the cutting room floor. it's part of the editing process. filter out the unneeded to get the best presentation and proper story telling of your film out there.

ZackR

I thought you would ask that!

When the next format comes along, I guess we will just have to see. In a perfect world, (IMHO) the original, theatrical versions and the "director's versions" (IF they are different) would both be preserved. But, using Lucas as an example, if he reasons that the original versions of Star Wars were out on VHS and laserdisc and that they were widely available and he will not release them on DVD, then that is his choice to make. I guess as technology/formats change, tough decisions have to be made. Not EVERY film can be ported over to EVERY new format. It is just not feasible. Again, in my perfect world, the original versions of at least every "important" film would be available on the latest format. But then you get into the whole "What films are important" discussion... but since I said it was MY perfect world, that would mean the films I think are important!

I really don't have an answer for that one, Jack. As a fanboy, though, I would love to have the original versions of all my favorite films available on DVD or whatever the latest format is. But realistically, I know the films belong to those who created them and that they have every right to do whatever the want to do with them. All I can do is hope the original versions are available. I think discussions such as these, as well as petitions, web sites, etc show Lucas and others that what they originally created many years ago is important to many people. Perhaps that will convince them to release them. Perhaps not. But, I know it was said that Lucas is aware of the demand for the originals. At least he is aware. If he never does release them though, I will just have to be content with my laserdiscs, which will do. . .

talemyn

I agree with you on this one too, with a slight modification. Double dip away to your hearts content and extract all the money that you can from the consumers, but I have a serious problem with releasing one version and then coming out with a suprise SE within a year of the first release. Starship Troopers, Black Hawk Down, and a handful if others have done this and I find it to be borderline deceitful. I have a lot of respect for the LotR release approach. Let people know what options they will have. There will still be plenty who will get both anyway, and you will incur good will with those who don't want both.Question: Was some of the filler that you are thinking of there before the recut, or did you think that it was all in the added material? While I agree that there are slower parts, I was very impressed at how much value was gained from the extra scenes in the EE. I've talked to some people who didn't know the story beforehand and they said that the movie made more sense to them after it was recut.Me too. I almost didn't start it because I thought it might be too "philosophical", but it seems to be just what everybody wanted. My one complaint . . . we're all getting so into it that we are "talking" too fast. I can't reply quickly enough!!!

talemyn

And, BTW, I was pleasantly suprised that nobody jumped on me for saying of the original three episodes: "as individual movies, each episode is not that great". I have had many a fan get VERY (sometimes angrily) defensive when I try to discuss that (generally in reponse to them tearing apart Episodes 1 & 2). Kudos for being able to look at them objectively . . . I'm very impressed.