On the contary, if Lucas had announced ahead of time that there would be two different versions, I think people would be fine with it. You forgot one obvious difference between LOTR and the new SW movies. General consensus seems to be that the new Star Wars movies suck.

Let's apply this to the old trilogy. If Lucas offers two versions (the original theatrical cut, and his new special abominations), I'm sure (most) fans would be fine with it. Especially if he announces both before the first one is released.

Well, Terrell, you're being a little disingenious in your argument. It was TWO release, one of which was split into WS/FS options. By your logic, Lucas did put out TWO releases on the same day? How could he???

This gripping on the NL/LOTR release pattern is idiotic to an extreme. Market economies are based on choice. Give the consumer the choice and let them test the model. I would hazard a good guess that 75%-85% of the relevant market are satisfied with the market strategy used in the DVD release of LOTR. A number which cannot be claimed by many studios.

And as for seamless branching for an option, it was logistically impossible given the extent of changes made to FOTR. With an additional 30+ minutes of footage PLUS completely rearranged scene orders and score/soundtrack elements releasing the film using seamless branching would have been a near impossibility, not to mention the large segment of DVD players in current use tend to choke on heavy branching titles.

I personally applaud NL for the method chosen and for informing consumers in advance of the release schedule allowing for maximum consumer choice.

Well, it's all about this forum's double standard. Anything Lucas does - no matter how logical - is instantly attributed to the man's Shameless and Naked Greed, while everything Jackson does (no matter how obviously designed to maximized his profits) people fall to their knees and instantly worship the ground he walks upon.

Lucas is in a no win situation. If he sits on the old trilogy because he wants to put out the best possible DVD set he can and doesn't want to double dip - he gets slammed for not delivering the movies, and people start threatening to buy bootlegs. "They're OUR movies, so we should have them NOW!" people shout.

If he releases multiple sets (like the 3 or 4 laserdisc sets - all of which were legitimate upgrades when consumer technology made significant advances), he gets accused of the Double Dip, and being a greedy marketing whore who loves money over the fans or the art.

Hi,

I've one observation to make, and it's about the criticism of the LOTR releases, (as this seems to be deemed "on-thread").

A point that all the critics of this release strategy have so far failed to address is this: Who would have wanted to wait until November each year for a "definitive" 5/6 disc release of each movie? I can but imagine the outrage that a full 11 month wait for each chapter to appear on DVD would have created!

It must however be pretty obvious to all but the most naieve, stupid, jadded or just plain blinkered individuals that a full 11 month time span has been required to fully post-produce and complete the expansive extras on the EE discs, not to mention re-editing and re-scoring 40+ minutes of footage back into each feature and completing any CGI work that was not finished for the theatrical release of each movie. All of this has also had to be achieved while concurrently working on the next theatrical chapter with all of the obvious pressure to bring this in "on time & within budget". I'd like to see George Lucas commit to the workload and punishing schedule that PJ has for the past 5 years, (GL seems to need a three year gap in order to just think up fresh dialogue, and this "STILL" ends up stinking of ripe gorgonzola!)

Given the above, surely NL/PJ have tried to give the general public a basic release that will satisfy them in an "acceptable" 8 month release window, containing as they do, only materials that were already in existance (Theatrical Release Print / Trailers / Internet features) at the time of each chapters theatrical run. While at the same time, letting all who may wish to wait know that a Extended Edition will subsequently become available!

I never cease to be amazed that people don't credit New Line with more praise for this entire endeavour!

The fact that this ambitious & audacious trilogy of movies was sanctioned at great expense and with much foresight in the first place by New Line is nothing short of miraculous.

The freedom that has been extended to Peter Jackson to develop his "vision" of Middle Earth has been revolutionary.

The clearly communicated long-term strategy for the DVD release of the trilogy is worthy of much praise indeed. As has been said, we were all made aware from the very first announcement of the FOTR DVD's that the 2 disc theatrical release would be followed by a 4 disc extended version & that the same would apply to the next two chapters.

I have bought both versions of the FOTR & shall indeed do the same for the next two instalments, and I don't feel in the slightest bit "ripped off".

In these days of frequent "double dipping" by the studios, when special editions are only announced a few months after we have all spent our hard earned cash on the standard version of a disc, New Lines approach to this series of films has been a revelation.

Anyone who thinks this is "double dipping" is quite frankly PLAIN WRONG! WELL DONE & THANK YOU NEW LINE.

Best Regards,
KBDVD.

*Ignoring off topic and frankly stupid slam of E1-3*

Clearly you know nothing about the Star Wars pre-production schedule. Aside from a couple of weeks after the release of each movie, Lucas goes all out balls to the wall on the next SW film. It was like that for the first three - which burned him out after Jedi, which is one factor why it took 16 years for the next film - and it's been like that for the new trilogy. The reason we don't have Wars out on disc now is because Lucas is so busy with the new movies.

Lets see Jackson maintain *THAT* kind of pace. 5 years of back to back filming and editing? Try dedicating EIGHTEEN years to making 6 movies.

Compared to that, Jackson is a n00b.

**OFF TOPIC**
All you people who say the new trilogy sucks. I've got 310,676,740 reasons that say you are wrong. If it sucked SO bad, then why did Attack of the Clones make that kind of money, hmmm? And this is after people 'learned their lesson' with Phantom Menace.

Somebody must be buying these tickets.

And anyone who doesn't see this as a double dip has deluded themselves.

And as someone who has bought the entire trilogy over 8 times on various formats...i'll be the first to say *I* don't give a shit.

PJ: Says LOTR theatrical releases should be preserved.

GL: Says SW theatrical releases no longer exist.

Nuff said.

And unless you are Lucas' intern assistant, you don't know either.

If green is my favorite color, it isn't invalidated by the fact that 100 people have blue as their favorite color. Green is still my favorite color.


what is your definition of "double dip"?

(edit to add: )
My definition of "Double dip" is the act of a studio releasing a DVD of a film and then releasing a version with more features without providing consumers with the information of that the subsequent release at the time of the initial release.

>>>>>>>>> "IF" BEING THE KEY WORD!

Nonsense - it's been well documented the kind of time table that these movies take. At the very least, go take a look at the old news reports on theforce.net about the pre-production of episode 2. Go check out some of the production notes for the Old Trilogy - you'll find that I'm more or less accurate.

So *YOU* may not like blue, but that doesn't invalidate blue as a color. And if the facts point to blue being wildly popular, then there must be something to it - even if it doesn't sit well with you.

For an example, since we're talking about it, I think that Rings stank to high heaven. I also know that it made a shit-ton of cash at the box office. Do I make sweeping generalizations of general opinion based on my opinion in the face of fact?

Well. . . . actually I do sometimes, but I also expect that people will sometimes think I'm a nutjob.

That's more or less my view too - except for the "without forewarning" part. If a studio puts out multiple versions of the same movie (be it directors cut or theatrical release) with technical upgrades and new extras - advance warning or not - then that's a double dip.

Consider the current releases of the Star Trek movies - a prime example of double dip in many peoples mind around here. But. . . wait a second - The Motion Picture (and Wrath of Khan, to a lesser degree) is a directors cut with special features that you couldn’t get on the first disc. And sure the new edit isn’t a dramatic as this 40+ extra minuets from Rings, but the new cut of TMP is a significant change to tone and pacing, with the additions of extensive and all new special effects.

And yet. . . TMP and Khan are double dips, while Rings is not?

I SEE!...... Now remind me, why exactly did he choose NOT to direct all of the original trilogy?

"Directing" three massive movies in three years is what I call "BUSY!" ....... And even if he is "busy" inventing another JA JA Binks to inflict upon us all, how exactly would this prevent him from greenlighting an "Original Version - movie only" release of the original trilogy? He could then spend as much time as he likes producing a bells and whistles "super duper, Director's Cut, Expanded, re-conseptualised, DTS, Anniversary, once in a lifetime, Special Edition release once he has put Episode III to bed! (Just as long as he tell's us of this intention first, as of course did NL/PJ!)

Best Regards,
KBDVD.

Since it's clear that you are a card carrying member of the official "George Lucas played 'Singing In The Rain" As He Murdered My Dog and Raped My Mother While Forcing Me To Watch" fan club, nothing I could possibly say will make a bit of difference to you whatsoever.

I will thank you however for making my point more eloquently that I could ever hope to: That he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Regardless if he sits on the releases or goes for the double dip - people are going to be pissed.

(Oh - and for the record, Lucas doesn't owe you SQUAT. They're his movies, not yours.)

The simple FACT is they are never going to satisfy everybody.

Just take a look at some of the other posts in this Forum. "Any chance of (fill in the blank) Special Edition?", "When will we see (fill in the blank) in 16:9?". People who collect DVDs are ASKING for rereleases. But as soon as a studio rereleases a DVD with new features, better video/audio, or simply 16:9, others start crying foul!

What would have happened if NL/PJ simply released the Theatrical cut of LOTR? Most people would have loved them, but if they got wind of deleted scenes, some would start crying about wanting to see a director's cut. Or if they had JUST released the extended editions, some would have loved them, others would cry that they were too long and say they wanted the theatrical cut. So NL/PJ decide they'll make 2 versions and UPFRONT announce it. You decide which one to get, or get both. YOU HAVE THE CHOICE. NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO SPEND YOUR MONEY. So stop crying about it double dipping.

I'm the first to agree that it sucks to buy a movie and then a couple years later find out that a special edition is on the way. But if it means the difference between having a special edition or not having one, then lets have it.

Why can't people focus there attention on more pressing DVD issues, like why the **** other regions get DVDs of US films and we don't. There is NO sense in that.

As for Lucas, just give us both versions. If it's in one set great, if it's in seperate releases, fine. Don't shaft either group of fans by only offering one version, or by offering one barebone and one loaded. This way, those who grew up with SW get the Original Versions that they love, AND Lucas gets his doctored, questioning his abilities version.

Rant ended.

In those cases, a double dip is warranted because of an actual UPGRADE from the current disc.

The double dips I hate are ones like X-Men, which they could have done up nicely from the start. And I also hate newer releases of catalog titles being bare-bones, which in this point in DVDs lifespan, shouldn't happen. Titles released by some studios don't even include a trailer, or 16x9 transfers.

Usually when I see a thread is __________ ever going to be a SE or 16x9 are usually titles usually released early in the formats lifespan.

To get back onto topic, Star Wars 4-6 is probably the most anticipated release ever. If Lucas, Fox or whoever doesn't put out the top of the line set, to set the bar (or break LOTR's bar), many people (including myself) will be greatly disappointed. If he does not do this, personally I will lose a lot of respect for the man (I already have with this fullscreen releases of Ep 1, 2, and Indy, but I digress). He's all for documenting and controlling his product, and not sharing his archival material with the fans who made him is really messed up.

And for him to put together some really nice discs for 1 and 2, if he pisses on 4-6 with a half-assed release when they do come out, people will scream bloody murder (look at the recent Indy threads to see what I'm talking about).

That said, if he say released the originals at the end of next year, and announced that he'd release 4-6 definitive editions with special features after Ep 3 wrapped up and put onto DVD, I think that is a fair compromise.

Although it would probably hurt his numbers when his Uber-editions are released.

This thread is about whether studios are pushing their customers too far by "double dipping" or gouging customers by releasing superfluous special editions. Instead this thread seems to be fueled by fans of GL vs. PJ or Star Wars vs. LOTR. If we were talking LOTR vs. Harry Potter I'd be more than glad to argue with as much zeal and off topic as some of you have.

I am a fan of both LOTR and SW and their DVD releases; even the substandard (compared to 4-6) Episodes 1 and 2; simply because they remain more inventive and interesting than other blockbuster movies. Both GL and PJ have created movies that drive people crazy for them and they deserve all the success and opportunities they've attained.

In the end its up to the consumer to decide where his or her limit is in whether they should buy another edition of the "same" movie. People can groan all they want but consumers ultimately have the power to choose. If a DVD is of "acceptable" quality I don't go out and buy a "special edition" just because the studios print it on a new shiny box. Grow up!

And if all movies were improved and expanded with as much quality involved as LOTR: FOTR EE than I would be more than glad to see more "double dips" of this kind; from these greedy studios and evil directors. You can accuse it of double dipping but its double dipping this consumer was more than glad to see. Maybe if PJ waited a few years to release the EE it wouldn't bother so many people as collectors but it would definately "bother" me.

Nope, not nonsense at all. All of those news "reports" are nothing but self-serving PR pieces.... just because you chose to believe them doesn't make them true or accurate.


Okay, that explains the disparity. Your definition of "double dip" differs from most. got it.

Well, thanks for the valuable character assessment!

It's interesting that your post addressed this rather than the two questions I asked in my next post:

1. Why exactly did George Lucas choose NOT to direct all of the original trilogy seeing as how he was "all out balls to the wall on the next SW film. It was like that for the first three - which burned him out after Jedi"?

2. If George Lucas is "busy" on Episode III how does this prevent him from greenlighting an "Original Version - movie only" release of the original trilogy in advance of an announced intention for a later Special Edition?......... (As if there will only ever be one more!)

IMHO George Lucas / Fox are now by default the custodians of the Original Trilogy. Any film or series of films that create the sort of impact that Star Wars / Lord of The Rings have, should indeed deserve to have a "preservation order" served upon them! That's not to say that the Director doesn't have the right to re-visit his original vision and re-conceptualise it as he/she see's fit, ...... of course they do, but IMHO they also have the obligation to ensure that the original versions remain forever available to those who wish to experience them, be it for the 1st or 91st time!

As custodian of the original Star Wars Trilogy "accessability to the original versions" in all future formats is something that George does indeed owe me, you & the whole world!...... your willingness to absolve George of this responsibility does your fellow Star Wars enthusiasts an extremely large dis-service!

Best Regards,
KBDVD.

He doesn't owe anything to anyone. Its not like he had all copies of the original versions destroyed. You can get the very nice laserdisc's and there are widescreen vhs copies avaible. You make it sound like he has this elusive film that has only been seen in a select few places. You also make it sound like the laser and vhs versions are terrible and unwatchable. They're not. True they aren't up to dvd quality but they are watchable. Lucas doesn't have any moral obligation to fans. He made a movie that ended up being a huge hit. He didn't go on radio or tv and beg people to see the movie. They went on they're own free will and they were entertained. Sure Lucas made money but the fans got got the most out of the movie. Money's money but entertainment and fun is, I feel, worth so much more. So I say Lucas and the fans are nothing less than even.

Why get the "Original Trilogy" in 2004? I don't see that happening. Lucasfilm is to focused at the moment on Episode III, which will mark(if my memory serves me correctly) the 28th anniversary of the Original Trilogy. Plus, hasn't Lucas himself said that he still needs to go back and "update" the original trilogy, in what will later be known as "The Ultimate Archival Edition Box Set". I'm thinking this will come out in 2007. Why? That will mark the 30th anniversary for the film. It makes sense.

I can see it now....The 30th anniverary "Ultimate Archival Edition Box Set with Movies 1-6".

So if they do release this trilogy next year, I'm not buing it, because 2007 is going to be a huge Star Wars year, and the LD's will hold me off until the time is needed.

Well, from the above, I think sweeping generalizations might be the order of the day.
Let's see if I've got this straight -
you like AOTC, so the financial success of the film proves its quality; you don't like FOTR, so its financial success is no measure of its quality? Isn't that trying to have it both ways?

And if financial success is the measure of quality, doesn't that make 2 Fast 2 Furious one of the best films of the year?

Don't you just love these threads? This has turned into a repost of repost of a repost into a repost of repost of a repost. into a repost of repost of a repost. into a repost of repost of a repost. into a repost of repost of a repost. into a repost of repost of a repost.

Just trolling --- it amazes me how worked up people get about Star Wars!! I love it personally, the whole thing. But I don't feel the need to force others to.

Back on topic....if the OT does come to DVD in 2004, I'll be all over it. I don't care if they're going to re-release it in another 4 years as a 6-disc set; I don't care if its bare-bones. As long as it is great quality sound and video, I'm buying. To each his own - if you don't want to buy it, don't.

Thanks, but my LaserDiscs will keep me satisfied until he releases these with with all of the new footage. I(unlike most people here) only really care about the Final version of Star Wars...whatever that is that George decides is final.
If people could just wait 4 years, he could "tweak" it up, so that the original Trilogy would mesh better with the new one. They could spend more time going through and adding bonus features. I wouldn't mind waiting til 2007, if it meant a 2-disc set for each one, and a Huge Box Set of Movies 1-6. I don't want this thing rushed, and screwed up. I'm waiting til 2007!

One of the things I find most amusing and ironic is the attitude of the people in this thread (and you know who you are ) who have gone to such great (and bizarre) lengths in an attempt to bash Peter Jackson and New Line for "double dipping" with the "multiple" LOTR DVD releases.

I can't help but wonder how these same people would react if Lucas and Fox tomorrow announced the release of the original, pre-SE versions of the original trilogy, and a separate release of the SE versions, each with a separate set of extras. They would be all over these releases (as would I, BTW), and they would fall all over themselves praising both Lucas and Fox for the wonderful thing they had done.

I love the Star Wars movies. I will buy the OT when it is released, whether that is in 2004 or later, and whether it contains the pre-SE versions of the films or not. But I am not so obsessed with Star Wars that I feel the need to embark on a crusade to "prove" its value to anyone else. Neither am I so inclined with respect to LOTR. Both sets of movies (and books, posters, toys, etc.) have welcome places in my collection.

When its in my hands....