So I have in my hands right now a bootleg copy of The Matrix Reloaded that someone burned on to a DVD. This movie was downloaded off the Internet, so no money changed hands, and is supposed to be an almost flawless copy. I have seen the movie in the theater twice, and was not planning on seeing it again. (Well, OK, if it's on at the $2 theater here in town, I may go and see it one more time on the big screen...)

I loathe the idea of pirated movies. I think that the practice of movie piracy saps money from the entire industry, and in the process forces me to pay $10, plus another $10 in popcorn and soda, just to see a new release... plus they have to tack on commericals and do excessive product placement, just to make everything balance out.

So I ordinarily would not watch a bootleg movie... except in this case, A) I have already paid to see this movie twice; B) I am not planning on seeing it again until the DVD comes out; C) the DVD is not going to be available for me to purchase for quite a while yet.

So from an ethical standpoint: if I turn around and buy the regular priced DVD copy of The Matrix Reloaded when it comes out... is it morally and ethically wrong for me to keep this bootleg DVD now?

I will say no. it's not morally ethical for you to do what you are doing.

I do much the same with just about everything. I feel, as long as you did support it, you should be able to see it. I do this with anime all the time. I download the fansub and then when it gets licensed I prepare myself to buy the dvd and do so happily.

Now, with the matrix reloaded. I downloaded it right after it showed up online, but I did watch it twice in theaters and I plan on going to the IMAX showing in the coming weeks. I usually download the films I watched in theaters for references as I love quotes and re-watching certain scenes. I figure that I already sponsered it in some form.

Since you supported it in theaters aswell as planning on buying it when it comes out, I think the ethics are ok as long as you don't plan on making that bootleg your only copy you stick with. Also, you didn't pay money for it, so no money was put into another's pocket which is a good thing.

some would say "Bootlegging is bootlegging", But I would have to say there is a difference. One takes away cash from the industry and puts it into some sellers pocket while the other takes no money away (since it was downloaded or given to you for free) and you already supported it by paying to watch it however many times you have.

that's just me though and I'm sure this discussion can get ugly. Most importantly, lets keep this talk AWAY from where to or how to get ahold of bootlegs and keep it to the topic of "Ethics behind it" so the thread doesn't get closed or cross any lines.

Yes. You have not paid anybody for the right to watch this film at your leisure in your home. Nevermind that one day you will be able to buy that right (when the DVD is released) because right now that is not being sold by any of the rights holders and we have to look at what is available today.

If you look at home media licensing, you are not buying the music, movie, game, etc. you are always buying the right to play, listen, watch, that product in your home from the rights holder. In the case of all bootlegged items, (including your DVD) the rights holder has not issued you a license to use that product. It doesn't matter if the rights holder hasn't offered a license commercially or not, that doesn't change the fact that they are not getting compensated.

The argument of 'It's not a real bootleg because it's not available commercially' may allow some people to sleep at night, but it is not ethically or legally sound.

Actually, I am 100% in agreement on the legal aspects of this bootleg DVD. It is an illegal copy, and that alone may be enough reason to toss it into the trash bin.

There is a certain percentage of people who believe that anything illegal is immoral. I do not subscribe to that theory. In the fine state of Georgia, for example, sodomy is illegal. Do I believe that sodomy between consenting adults is immoral? No. Possession of marijuana is illegal. I do not use drugs, and do not allow them in my house. But do I find pot smoking immoral? No. As long as you want to toke up in your house and on your time, and it does not affect me, then I am A-OK with your habit of choice.

Creating bootleg copies -- and peer-to-peer file sharing -- are pretty clear-cut illegal acts, IMO. If you rip a song off a CD and put in on Kazaa, it is both illegal and immoral. If you rent a DVD from Blockbuster, and then burn copies for all of your friends, it is illegal and immoral.

But if you do eventually purchase the DVD... and if the DVD is not currently available... and if you do pay money to see the movie while it is out (which is the entire purpose of refraining from releasing the DVD version early on)... and if no money changes hands... is possessing the DVD illegal? Certainly. Is it immoral? I think that is more of a grey area, and that is why I started this thread -- to get people's feedback on the matter.

I have no problem with boots for movies that aren't available in theaters or to rent (making the downloaded version or fansub the only way to see it), but Reloaded is still in theaters. So in my opinion you are outright stealing the movie everytime you watch that copy.

Small correction ... Georgia repealed their anti-sodomy law a while back. Your great state of North Carolina, however is another story. For your reference.

I believe that this arguement is ethically sound (though not legally). Since the item is not available commercially, I see no ethical problem with having a bootleg. Of course, once the movie does become available commercially, you would be ethically obligated to throw away your bootleg.

So, to answer the original question, you are OK ethically as long as you throw away the bootleg when the DVD comes out (and buy the DVD). The question then is - are you taking away from the box off total? To asnwer that one, think of if you would have seen it in the theater anyway, or if you would have waited for the DVD. If you would have seen it, then you are bound to catch the movie in the theater (or something else by the same production company, something that you would not have seen normally).

The movie is commercially available in theaters.

the 'flawless' copy you have is not very good anyways, watched it a few months ago....but of course saw it opening night in the theater. I have no problem getting bootlegs of movies, but I usually see them in the theater first (if i know it'll be good) or then buy the DVD when it comes out. Theaters are terrible nowadays, too expensive, no fun, stupid people...and my home theater looks and sounds better

I shoplifted some CDs from Best Buy last week, so no money changed hands, and I will more than likely buy CDs from them in the future, so nothing immoral took place.

That's where another question of ethics comes into play. Are you cheating the filmmakers by viewing their work in a compromised state? I know this opens up the door to all sorts of complaints about the shoddy quality of theatrical exhibition, but by watching a poor quality bootleg, aren't you making an atristic compromise that the authors of the film didn't agree to? They want their film to be seen under optimal conditions and will surely go to great lengths to ensure that quality for the legitimate DVD release. Are you cheating them by watching the lesser quality bootleg?

That may sound silly, but it is another perspective to consider.

Then lets sue the companies that deliberately compromise directors' visions to sell pan and scam editions of the movies. And I've seen some transfers on commercially available DVDs that are downright criminal.

I never said or implied that it was a crime.

It's wrong, it's a frickin' bootleg.

How long until this thread is locked?

I see, you meant the GOOD kind of cheating!

No, I meant cheating an artist out of their right to present a film in the manner they choose. This obviously isn't illegal or we wouldn't have pan-n-scan. I was just throwing an idea out there about an artist's right to have their work shown the way they want it to be. I just wonder how someone who, for instance, is a hardcore OAR evangelist would feel about watching a low quality letterboxed MATRIX bootleg. Isn't that the same sort of artistic compromise that pan-n-scan offers?

I believe it falls under safe grounds aslong as it doesn't talk about HOW to get them or WHERE to get them.

Looks like I gotta toss out my Star Wars and Song of the South DVDs

I don't understand all these moral arguments regarding bootlegging. We've all watched some form of bootleg at one point of our lives. Does that make us all criminals? Probably so to some extent. I mean we did breach copyright laws.

Some people attach all of this mumbo jumbo about billion dollar industries getting hurt, so on and so forth. I could care less. Piracy is a product of society. Maybe it's a clue said industry should look into.

There's no need to air out our conscience. If you watch a bootleg and enjoy the movie that's cool. If you watch the bootleg, looking over your shoulder the whole time, just go to the theater. Jimminy Cricket will thank you.

I'll be a little different. After watching the bootleg, I decided not to buy Reloaded when it is released on DVD. How long can an orgy scene go on in a PG13 film anyway?

Just to clarify one point: several people have mentioned box office, and have questioned whether I saw the movie in the theater. I saw the film in a midnight showing on the Wednesday it opened, and then saw it again three days later. I might also still see it again on the big screen at some point in the future, even though I have this bootleg DVD.

Not to justify the morality of keeping the bootleg -- just as a point of clarification. And I don't think the content or the spirit of this thread qualifies for a lock; I am not advocating movie bootlegging or P2P sharing, and started this thread as a means of generating discussion, pro and con.

It sounds like you've answered your own question. Legality and ethics are sometimes related to morality, many times they are not. The fact that you have the DVD seems that this falls into the 'pot smoking area' for you. I don't think there's anyone on this forum that can/will be able to make you change your ways. Your morals have been shaped throughout your life by family, friends, environment along with your own desire/greed balanced against your conscious. In other words, I don't think any stranger on the internet can make a compelling moral argument to you about it.

My suggestion is to embrace your piracy or deny your piracy, but none of this middle of the road explaining yourself to others. You have a bootleg DVD. Either wear it loud and proud with no moral dillema, or toss it in the trash and say your Hail Mary's. I'll help out:

My name is Renaldow, and I have bootlegs of all 26 Cowboy Bebop Sessions. I purchased them for under $30 w/ shipping, and only did this because I was too cheap to spend the $80-120 to own the same material that is easily available in my own city legitimately. Yes, that's right, I took pennies off someone's paycheck so I could save at least $50. I am proud of this fact, and if anyone is keeping notes there is a good chance I will do this again in the future. I am not ashamed of this, you may find it immoral, but you know what? I am $50 richer and I don't care what you think.

It's funny because the entire argument deals with so many fine lines... let's say we're talking about a movie that is out on a legitimate DVD. Obviously making a bootleg copy of that movie is 'wrong'. Because the theory is we're taking money out of the studio's pocket. So what my friend buys the DVD and loans it out to 20 of his friends? The studio is still losing out on our business. What if I TIVO the movie off HBO, then transfer it to a DVD-R? Is that different than making a VHS recording, other than the quality? And is that different than pulling the exact thing off the internet, or dubbing my friend's copy of the disc? I'm not advocating one thing or another, just bringing up some points.

When taping, you are using the a sort of Time Shifting so that is what made Video tape machines legal.

Would you feel morally ethical if you bought stolen merchandise? The people making these bootlegs are stealing the rights to the movie. By purchasing them you are encouraging this theft. But that's just how I see it. BTW, I do own 1 bootleg of a film that will never be released here in the states. Do I feel good about it? No.